RE: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements

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From: Knighten, Jim L (JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM)
Date: Wed Feb 14 2001 - 12:33:16 PST


Dima,

I don't espouse the network analyzer approach as a replacement for the TDR
approach. I think both have their merits. We use both at NCR. I believe
that you are a TDR person.

I have been very impressed with what I can do with the network analyzer with
multiport s-parameter test set. An interesting feature of the 4-port
Multiport network analyzer method is the ability to use measured data and
predict transmission line eye patterns at high bit rates without need for an
expensive BERT.

As to cost, it sort of depends on your baseline. What equipment do you have
already that you can build upon, so what is your incremental cost.

Regards,

Jim
________________________________________________________
Dr. Jim Knighten e-mail: jim.knighten@ncr.com
<jim.knighten@ncr.com>
Technical Consultant - Design
NCR
17095 Via del Campo
San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com <http://www.ncr.com>
Tel: 858-485-2537
Fax: 858-485-3788

                -----Original Message-----
                From: Dima Smolyansky [mailto:dima@tdasystems.com]
                Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:50 AM
                To: Knighten, Jim L
                Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
                Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR
measurements

                Jim:

                There is just one minor detail: a TDR oscilloscope based
solution will give
                much more modeling capability, will allow more differential
ports, and will
                cost half as much :-).

                Thanks,

                ===================
                Dima Smolyansky
                TDA Systems, Inc.
                11140 SW Barbur Blvd., Suite 100
                Portland, OR 97219
                (503) 246-2272
                (503) 246-2282 (fax)
                (503) 804-7171 (mobile)
                http://www.tdasystems.com
                The Interconnect Modeling Company(TM)

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Knighten, Jim L"
<JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
                To: "Offer Kaye" <sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il>; "Ozgur
Misman"
                <omism@amkor.com>
                Cc: <si-list@silab.eng.sun.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:52 AM
                Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements

> Offer,
>
> That is a very good suggestion. Check out
http://www.atn-microwave.com/
> <http://www.atn-microwave.com/> for the ATN Multiport
Vector network
> analyzer solution - especially the time domain software
which can emulate
> TDR techniques from frequency domain data (which have a
better
> signal-to-noise characteristic).
>
> Jim
> ________________________________________________________
> Dr. Jim Knighten e-mail: jim.knighten@ncr.com
> <jim.knighten@ncr.com>
> Technical Consultant - Design
> NCR
> 17095 Via del Campo
> San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com
<http://www.ncr.com>
> Tel: 858-485-2537
> Fax: 858-485-3788
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Offer Kaye [mailto:sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:15 PM
> To: Ozgur Misman
> Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR
> measurements
>
> Ozgur, I would also check out how VNA systems compare to
TDR
> ones in these
> type of measurements.
>
> As another avenue of research I would suggest a good book,
> such
> as: "High-frequency characterization of electronic
> packaging", from
> Kluwer Academic Pub; ISBN: 0792383079.
>
> Offer Kaye
> oferk@oren.co.il
> sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il
>
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Ozgur Misman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > We have capital to put together a TDR analysis
capability
> for high speed
> > interconnect characterization. our focus is mainly BGA,
> leadframe and high end
> > 1500+ I/O flip chip packages with interconnect length
> ranging from 2 mm to 20
> > mm. As in any package construction vias, traces,
> solderballs, chip bumps etc
> > make up a signal net.
> >
> > We are in the process of determining what equipment we
> would need to properly
> > characterize interconnects ( at package level) with
> risetimes as low as 50~100
> > picosecond. We would also include differential pair
> characterization as well
> > since wee see the use of differential pairs at package
> level more and more.
> >
> > If you would send some feedback on your experience with
> TDR equipment, or a
> > setup that works in high speed domain and provides good
> repeatibility, I would
> > ver much appreciate your feedback.!.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > Ozgur Misman
> > Sr. Engineer/scientist
> >
> >
> >
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