Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements

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From: Ozgur Misman (omism@amkor.com)
Date: Wed Feb 14 2001 - 12:26:10 PST


Hello All,
Thanks for many replies. I think I have a pretty solid idea on how to bring up
this capability.
I will be contacting some of you personally to get more details on some of the
products.
We already have high frequency capability, namely a VNA, probe station. Our VNA
actually does have FFT (Fast Fourier Transform) capability as well but it is
more suitable for electrically long structures such as cables, etc. The risetime
is just not fast enough to capture reflections from impedance discontinuities
such as vias, solder balls, wirebondswithin the package. Remember package
structures are very short compared to motherboard busses.
I also believe TDR ( if the fixture probed right) is more intuitive then VNA
and it is easier to interpret.. I think high end systems do also offer
S-parameter conversion to S11, S21 from the reflection and transmission
coefficient of time domain analysis.

By the way, thanks RAY Anderson for useful insight.

Regards,
Ozgur Misman

"Dima Smolyansky" <dima@tdasystems.com> on 02/14/2001 12:50:29 PM

Please respond to "Dima Smolyansky" <dima@tdasystems.com>
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 To: "Knighten, Jim L"
          <JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
                                                              
 cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
                                                              
                                                              
                                                              
 Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements
                                                              

Jim:

There is just one minor detail: a TDR oscilloscope based solution will give
much more modeling capability, will allow more differential ports, and will
cost half as much :-).

Thanks,

===================
Dima Smolyansky
TDA Systems, Inc.
11140 SW Barbur Blvd., Suite 100
Portland, OR 97219
(503) 246-2272
(503) 246-2282 (fax)
(503) 804-7171 (mobile)
http://www.tdasystems.com
The Interconnect Modeling Company(TM)

----- Original Message -----
From: "Knighten, Jim L" <JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
To: "Offer Kaye" <sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il>; "Ozgur Misman"
<omism@amkor.com>
Cc: <si-list@silab.eng.sun.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:52 AM
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements

> Offer,
>
> That is a very good suggestion. Check out http://www.atn-microwave.com/
> <http://www.atn-microwave.com/> for the ATN Multiport Vector network
> analyzer solution - especially the time domain software which can emulate
> TDR techniques from frequency domain data (which have a better
> signal-to-noise characteristic).
>
> Jim
> ________________________________________________________
> Dr. Jim Knighten e-mail: jim.knighten@ncr.com
> <jim.knighten@ncr.com>
> Technical Consultant - Design
> NCR
> 17095 Via del Campo
> San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com <http://www.ncr.com>
> Tel: 858-485-2537
> Fax: 858-485-3788
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Offer Kaye [mailto:sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il]
> Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:15 PM
> To: Ozgur Misman
> Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR
> measurements
>
> Ozgur, I would also check out how VNA systems compare to TDR
> ones in these
> type of measurements.
>
> As another avenue of research I would suggest a good book,
> such
> as: "High-frequency characterization of electronic
> packaging", from
> Kluwer Academic Pub; ISBN: 0792383079.
>
> Offer Kaye
> oferk@oren.co.il
> sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il
>
> On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Ozgur Misman wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hello everyone,
> >
> > We have capital to put together a TDR analysis capability
> for high speed
> > interconnect characterization. our focus is mainly BGA,
> leadframe and high end
> > 1500+ I/O flip chip packages with interconnect length
> ranging from 2 mm to 20
> > mm. As in any package construction vias, traces,
> solderballs, chip bumps etc
> > make up a signal net.
> >
> > We are in the process of determining what equipment we
> would need to properly
> > characterize interconnects ( at package level) with
> risetimes as low as 50~100
> > picosecond. We would also include differential pair
> characterization as well
> > since wee see the use of differential pairs at package
> level more and more.
> >
> > If you would send some feedback on your experience with
> TDR equipment, or a
> > setup that works in high speed domain and provides good
> repeatibility, I would
> > ver much appreciate your feedback.!.
> >
> > Thanks in advance
> > Ozgur Misman
> > Sr. Engineer/scientist
> >
> >
> >
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