[SI-LIST] : Jitter and eye-diagram degradation

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From: Dima Smolyansky (dima@tdasystems.com)
Date: Wed Feb 14 2001 - 13:20:30 PST


Jim:

I am totally with you that VNA and TDR have their uses. I am just trying to
point out that TDR is capable of providing the same data as the VNA at a
much lower cost - including predicting the eye diagram from measured
information, and getting the multiport S-parameters (up to 8 ports with the
currently available equipment, as a matter of fact). Bottom line, I have
done enough microwave work that I can go either way between TDR and VNA and
understand the meaning of the data. However, as Ozgur pointed out, TDR is
much more intuitive and the TDR data is much easier to interpret unless you
have a microwave engineering background.

Thanks,

-Dima

----- Original Message -----
From: "Knighten, Jim L" <JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
To: "Dima Smolyansky" <dima@tdasystems.com>
Cc: <si-list@silab.eng.sun.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 12:33 PM
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements

> Dima,
>
> I don't espouse the network analyzer approach as a replacement for the TDR
> approach. I think both have their merits. We use both at NCR. I believe
> that you are a TDR person.
>
> I have been very impressed with what I can do with the network analyzer
with
> multiport s-parameter test set. An interesting feature of the 4-port
> Multiport network analyzer method is the ability to use measured data and
> predict transmission line eye patterns at high bit rates without need for
an
> expensive BERT.
>
> As to cost, it sort of depends on your baseline. What equipment do you
have
> already that you can build upon, so what is your incremental cost.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jim
> ________________________________________________________
> Dr. Jim Knighten e-mail: jim.knighten@ncr.com
> <jim.knighten@ncr.com>
> Technical Consultant - Design
> NCR
> 17095 Via del Campo
> San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com <http://www.ncr.com>
> Tel: 858-485-2537
> Fax: 858-485-3788
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Dima Smolyansky [mailto:dima@tdasystems.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 11:50 AM
> To: Knighten, Jim L
> Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR
> measurements
>
> Jim:
>
> There is just one minor detail: a TDR oscilloscope based
> solution will give
> much more modeling capability, will allow more differential
> ports, and will
> cost half as much :-).
>
> Thanks,
>
> ===================
> Dima Smolyansky
> TDA Systems, Inc.
> 11140 SW Barbur Blvd., Suite 100
> Portland, OR 97219
> (503) 246-2272
> (503) 246-2282 (fax)
> (503) 804-7171 (mobile)
> http://www.tdasystems.com
> The Interconnect Modeling Company(TM)
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Knighten, Jim L"
> <JK100005@exchange.SanDiegoCA.NCR.COM>
> To: "Offer Kaye" <sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il>; "Ozgur
> Misman"
> <omism@amkor.com>
> Cc: <si-list@silab.eng.sun.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2001 9:52 AM
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR measurements
>
>
> > Offer,
> >
> > That is a very good suggestion. Check out
> http://www.atn-microwave.com/
> > <http://www.atn-microwave.com/> for the ATN Multiport
> Vector network
> > analyzer solution - especially the time domain software
> which can emulate
> > TDR techniques from frequency domain data (which have a
> better
> > signal-to-noise characteristic).
> >
> > Jim
> > ________________________________________________________
> > Dr. Jim Knighten e-mail: jim.knighten@ncr.com
> > <jim.knighten@ncr.com>
> > Technical Consultant - Design
> > NCR
> > 17095 Via del Campo
> > San Diego, CA 92127 http://www.ncr.com
> <http://www.ncr.com>
> > Tel: 858-485-2537
> > Fax: 858-485-3788
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Offer Kaye [mailto:sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il]
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 13, 2001 11:15 PM
> > To: Ozgur Misman
> > Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Feedback needed in TDR
> > measurements
> >
> > Ozgur, I would also check out how VNA systems compare to
> TDR
> > ones in these
> > type of measurements.
> >
> > As another avenue of research I would suggest a good book,
> > such
> > as: "High-frequency characterization of electronic
> > packaging", from
> > Kluwer Academic Pub; ISBN: 0792383079.
> >
> > Offer Kaye
> > oferk@oren.co.il
> > sofferk@techst02.technion.ac.il
> >
> > On Tue, 13 Feb 2001, Ozgur Misman wrote:
> >
> > >
> > >
> > > Hello everyone,
> > >
> > > We have capital to put together a TDR analysis
> capability
> > for high speed
> > > interconnect characterization. our focus is mainly BGA,
> > leadframe and high end
> > > 1500+ I/O flip chip packages with interconnect length
> > ranging from 2 mm to 20
> > > mm. As in any package construction vias, traces,
> > solderballs, chip bumps etc
> > > make up a signal net.
> > >
> > > We are in the process of determining what equipment we
> > would need to properly
> > > characterize interconnects ( at package level) with
> > risetimes as low as 50~100
> > > picosecond. We would also include differential pair
> > characterization as well
> > > since wee see the use of differential pairs at package
> > level more and more.
> > >
> > > If you would send some feedback on your experience with
> > TDR equipment, or a
> > > setup that works in high speed domain and provides good
> > repeatibility, I would
> > > ver much appreciate your feedback.!.
> > >
> > > Thanks in advance
> > > Ozgur Misman
> > > Sr. Engineer/scientist
> > >
> > >
> > >
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