Re: [SI-LIST] : Decoupling Capacitors and SSN

About this list Date view Thread view Subject view Author view

From: Josip Popovic (popovic@mosaid.com)
Date: Mon Aug 28 2000 - 09:03:26 PDT


All,

purpose of Larry's (attached) message was not to explain SSO however I
have a quick comment related to the 3rd paragraph:

wouldn't Zo od a transmission line loaded by a capacitor (Cd) change and
be different then Zo of a line with a resistive load:

Zo'=Zo/(SQRT(1+Cd/Co))

where:

Zo' is new characteristic impedance of the loaded transmission line,
Cd is a capacitive load (per the transmission length).
Co intristic capacitance (per length)

I do not think that an ideal transmission line model (as is one that
comes with HSPICE for example) would show this change in Zo.

For example a generic Zo=50 ohm, 6" long microstrip line with 5 pF load
would have Zo' app 39 ohm.

So simulating SSO with output drivers driving an ideal transmission line
with capacitive load would have driver output current:

Io= Vdd/(Rs+Zo) where Rs is (static) driver output impedance

that is different than

Io'= Vdd/(Rs+Zo') as it should be.

Comments?

Josip

Larry.Smith@Eng.Sun.COM wrote:
>
> Brian - really good question! Yes, there is definitely noise
> associated with IO circuits that is below the edge rate frequency, but
> I would not call this part of the "SSN signal". For IO circuits, there
> is an SSN problem and a power distribution problem. The two are
> related but independent problems.
>
> For example, consider two different signaling technologies with
> identical drivers and 3 inch transmission lines, but one has a
> capacitive load at the far end (maybe 5 pF), and another has a 50 Ohm
> resistor to ground.
>
> Let's define the SSN event as the things that happen at the driver
> within 1 nSec of a 0.5 nSec rising edge coming out of the driver. The driver
> has no idea what the load is. The SSN waveforms measured anywhere in
> the vicinity of the driver will be identical for our two signaling
> technologies. It will take at least 1 nSec for the signal to get to
> the far end and come back to affect the driver.
>
> But the power distribution requirements will be completely different.
> With 50 ohm drivers terminated with 50 ohm resistors to ground, each
> driver may consume Vdd/100 = 3.3/100 = 33 mAmps forever after the
> transition. The drivers connected to capacitive loads will consume 33
> mAmps for about 2 nSec after the event and then consume no more power
> until another clock cycle.
>
> The major point is that we have two problems: an SSN problem involving
> the edge rate and a power distribution problem that has to do with the
> average power consumed over a clock cycle. The power distribution
> problem is well quantified by the target impedance. All you need to do
> is find the average current consumed over the clock cycle and make sure
> the power distribution system can handle it without too much voltage
> drop. A flat target impedance is desirable up to the clock frequency,
> 100 MHz in Martin's case.
>
> For both technologies, we need to deal with the SSN event. With edge
> rates of 0.5 nSec, it will involve solutions between 100 MHz and 700
> MHz, maybe a little more. To understand the SSN event, we have to
> trace the currents on the signal transmission lines and the return
> currents on the Vdd and Gnd planes. Current must travel in a complete
> loop and may have to jump from a Vdd to Gnd node to complete the path.
> This involves displacement current through some type of capacitance as
> well as package inductance. Target impedance is a good concept for the
> power distribution problem, but I'm afraid it is too simplistic to be
> of much use in the SSN problem. We may attempt to define a noise
> spectrum for the SSN problem and measure an impedance of the power
> planes at those frequencies, but that does not really address the
> completion of the current paths of all the SSN currents.
>
> regards,
> Larry Smith
> Sun Microsystems
>
> > From: "Moran, Brian P" <brian.p.moran@intel.com>
> > To: "'Larry Smith'" <Larry.Smith@eng.sun.com>, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Decoupling Capacitors and SSN
> > Date: Thu, 17 Aug 2000 09:10:55 -0700
> > MIME-Version: 1.0
> >
> > Larry,
> >
> > Your response to the Martin regarding making a distinction between power
> > delivery and SSN was very well received. I agree with the basic premise, but
> > I do have a question. I agree that layer stack optimized power/ground
> > coupling provides a good means of high frequency decoupling, which allows
> > you to filter the upper portions of the SSN noise signal, the overall
> > bandwidth of which, as you say is a function of rise time.
> >
> > However, due to the relatively low capacitance value of this power/ground
> > coupling, it would seem that there would still be a large component of the
> > SSN signal below the effective range of this technique, which would still
> > have to be handled with on-chip or on-board decoupling. So you can not
> > really say that SSN is not a board level decoupling issue. Difficult as it
> > is to deal with.
> >
> > It would seem that you may need better than the 333 mohms required for power
> > delivery, over some portion of the spectrum, but perhaps less than the 20
> > mohms required to address peak SSN. In a perfect world your on chip
> > decoupling would take you down in frequiency until the rest of the SSN
> > component was suppressed. I'm not sure this is always the case. Therefore I
> > think some amount of SSN must be considered at the board level.
> >
> > One of the problems I have is figuring out the overall frequency spectrum of
> > the SSN based on clock rate and rise time, and translating that into a power
> > delivery impedance requirement vs frequency plot. A good rule of thumb for
> > the amplitude vs frequency spectrum of the SSN signal, based on clock rate
> > and edge rate would be a good start. Forgive me if I mis-stated any of your
> > position on this. There was alot of mail going back and forth.
> >
> >
> > Brian Moran
> > Signal Integrity Engineering
> > Intel Corp.
> > Folsom, CA
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Larry Smith [mailto:Larry.Smith@Eng.Sun.COM]
> > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 4:57 PM
> > To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Decoupling capacitors (again!)
> >
> >
> > Martin has a good question on decoupling and Pat has contributed some
> > good comments on the subject. The most common complaint that I hear
> > about this decoupling methodology is that it requires the use of too
> > many capacitors! Please allow me to make a few comments that may
> > help.
> >
> > First of all, we need to carefully distinguish between a power
> > distribution problem and an SSN (simultaneous switch noise) problem.
> > Anytime there are IO or transmission lines involved, it is probably an
> > SSN problem. The two problems are closely related, but if we don't
> > make a careful distinction, we will greatly over estimate the number of
> > capacitors required.
> >
> > To determine the number of discrete decoupling capacitors required in a
> > system, we first calculate the target impedance. For Martin's problem
> > we can get a good estimate from the clock frequency and capacitance
> > load. The system runs at 100 MHz and there is 1.5 nF of capacitance
> > that may be charged up to 3.3V or discharged to ground every clock
> > cycle. Q = CV, so we have 1.5nF*3.3V = 4.95 nCoulombs that may flow
> > every clock cycle. I = dQ/dt, so we have 4.95 nCoul/10nSec = .495 amps
> > average current. Most systems can tolerate a 5% supply, so the target
> > impedance is Zt = Vdd*5%/I = 3.3*.05/.495 = 333 mOhms. (If there is
> > more than just IO circuitry hanging on the 3.3V supply, the target
> > impedance should be lower.)
> >
> > 333 mOhms is much higher than the 20 mOhm target impedance calculated
> > below. The error has come because the power distribution problem was
> > mixed up with an SSN problem. SSN is concerned with edge rates, but
> > the power distribution target impedance is associated with average
> > currents. It will be easy to maintain 333 mOhm impedance out to more
> > than 100 MHz with about a dozen carefully chosen capacitors. This is
> > all that is needed for this power distribution problem and is
> > consistent with the intuition that experienced engineers have regarding
> > the number of capacitors required. The decoupling capacitor
> > methodology gives a good way to optimize the chosen capacitors and
> > guarantee there are no high impedance frequencies up to several hundred
> > MHz. This becomes necessary on larger systems where we really have to
> > maintain 10 mOhms or less up to high frequencies.
> >
> > As Ray mentioned in a previous note, it is very difficult to maintain a
> > low target impedance above 200 MHz using discrete capacitors. The 1 nH
> > mounting inductance for a discrete capacitor contributes more than 1
> > Ohm of impedance. You have to put 50 of them in parallel to get to 20
> > mOhms at 200 MHz. If you want 20 mOhms at 1GHz, it takes 5x more than
> > that! With low ESR capacitors, it is possible to target certain
> > critical frequencies above 200 MHz using the resonance technique. But
> > the number of discrete capacitors required to maintain a flat 20 mOhm
> > impedance up to 1 GHz is prohibitively large, and really not necessary
> > on any of the systems that I work on.
> >
> > The answer to the SSN problem is thin dielectric power planes. At 1
> > GHz, 8nF gives an impedance of 20 mOhms (1/jwC). 36 square inches (6x6
> > inches) of a pair of power planes separated by 4 mils of FR4 gives this
> > capacitance. If our SSN problem is centered within this area, this
> > capacitance will be available within a 1 nSec rise time. It really
> > does not make sense to use discrete decoupling capacitors to deal with
> > SSN noise associated with today's fast edge rates. Capacitance between
> > PCB and package power planes and capacitance embedded on chip are the
> > best defenses against SSN.
> >
> > One more comment, target impedance is really too simplistic of a
> > concept to be useful for the SSN problem. To really deal with the SSN
> > problem, you have to know which way the driver is switching (high or
> > low) and whether the transmission line return current flows mostly on
> > the Vdd plane or Ground plane in order to make SSN calculations (yes,
> > it makes a big difference!). There is another paper on the same web
> > site as the decoupling capacitor paper. Check out "Simultaneous Switch
> > Noise and Power Plane Bounce for CMOS Technology" on:
> >
> > http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/si_documents/docs.html
> >
> > regards,
> > Larry Smith
> > Sun Microsystems
> >
> >
> > > From: "Zabinski, Patrick J." <zabinski.patrick@mayo.edu>
> > > To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Decoupling capacitors (again!)
> > > Date: Tue, 15 Aug 2000 10:40:50 -0500
> > > MIME-Version: 1.0
> > >
> > >
> > > Martin,
> > >
> > > I can't offer much advice, but I can possibly offer some
> > > comfort in that I've had the same problem. For one design
> > > I was recently involved in, I tried to follow the same
> > > approach/theory, and the end result was that I needed
> > > 80 decoupling capacitors per ASIC (to maintain 10%
> > > dV), and I had 32 ASICs per board (>2500 caps per board!).
> > > After having others verify
> > > my numbers/calculations, I took close look and realized
> > > the caps would consume more board space than the ASICs.
> > >
> > > I could not justify, believe, or afford this, so I
> > > ended up backing down and relying on my old rules of
> > > thumb (BTW: I hate rules of thumb, but I sometimes
> > > use them when I have no better way). The board works
> > > fine with only 12 caps per ASIC.
> > >
> > > Looking back, I can see three possible reasons why the approach you
> > > and I took is not quite complete:
> > >
> > > * component packaging effects are not taken to
> > > account. Not definite on this, but I believe
> > > a poor package would probably negate any capacitance
> > > you might have on the board.
> > > * the board's self-impedance. I believe Larry's
> > > approach addresses this as effective increase
> > > in inductance, but the ground/power plane itself
> > > does offer a low-impedance capacitance. Regardless
> > > if you have any discrete caps on or not, the planes
> > > offer some inherent, built-in capacitance.
> > > * most (all?) dI/dt effects are self-limiting.
> > > For the calculations you used, they assumed
> > > dV=0.0. However, if dV>0, then dI/dt will
> > > be reduced all on its own. I don't have any
> > > data or theories on how much, but dI/dt
> > > is likely to be reduced from what you
> > > predicted (also tied into/related to the
> > > first issue about packaging).
> > >
> > > Sound reasonable? Comments?
> > >
> > > Anyway, I sympathize and hope you find a solution. If you
> > > do, please share.
> > >
> > > Pat
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Martin J Thompson [mailto:Martin.J.Thompson@trw.com]
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, August 15, 2000 9:49 AM
> > > > To: <"si-list@silab.eng.sun.com"
> > > > Subject: [SI-LIST] : Decoupling capacitors (again!)
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Hi all, this is my first time posting here, although I've
> > > > been lurking for a while.
> > > >
> > > > My problem is figuring out the decoupling requirements for
> > > > this system:
> > > > FPGA, DSP, 6 SDRAMS, 2 flash, DPRAM, clock frequency is 100MHz.
> > > >
> > > > According to my calculations, my I/O's need to drive a total
> > > > of about 1.5nF of I/O and trace capacitance.
> > > > To achieve the 0.5ns edges that the FPGA will drive (3.3V
> > > > supply) it looks like I need dI=4amps. This is assuming that
> > > > 50% (is this typical?) of the I/O's toggle each cycle. (dI=0.5Cdv/dt)
> > > >
> > > > To achieve a dV of < 0.1V this implies a target impedance of
> > > > around 20mohm, flat up to 1GHz! (Z=dv/di)
> > > >
> > > > This then seems to need around 500-800 decouping caps spread
> > > > around, which is an order of magnitude more than I've ever
> > > > used in the past. This is the first time I have taken a
> > > > 'design' approach to the problem, but the previous boards
> > > > have worked, using various rules of thumb.
> > > >
> > > > Is this sort of number of caps to be expected in this sort of
> > > > system, or can anyone see any sillies in my understanding (or
> > > > even in the sums!)?
> > > >
> > > > Now, if I don't get right out to 1GHz, the edges will suffer,
> > > > but that wouldn't necessarily matter if they stayed below
> > > > 1-1.5ns. Or would this cause the supply to droop elsewhere?
> > > >
> > > > As you might gather from the analysis above I've read Larry
> > > > Smith and co's paper on decoupling design, which states that
> > > > a flat target impedance is indicated. If I can analyse my
> > > > application enough, can I then shape the Ztarget vs frequency
> > > > to make life easier?
> > > >
> > > > Many thanks for your time, any help greatly appreciated,
> > > >
> > > > Martin
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > TRW Automotive Advanced Product Development,
> > > > Stratford Road, Solihull, B90 4GW. UK
> > > > Tel: +44 (0)121-627-3569
> > > > mailto:martin.j.thompson@trw.com
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > **** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
> > > > majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
> > > > si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
> > > > si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > > > ****
> > > >
> > >
> > > **** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
> > > majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
> > > si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
> > > si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > > ****
> > >
> >
> >
> > **** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
> > majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
> > si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
> > si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > ****
> >
> >
> >
> > **** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
> > majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
> > si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
> > si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> > ****
> >
>
> **** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
> majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
> si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
> si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
> ****

**** To unsubscribe from si-list or si-list-digest: send e-mail to
majordomo@silab.eng.sun.com. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE
si-list or UNSUBSCRIBE si-list-digest, for more help, put HELP.
si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu
****


About this list Date view Thread view Subject view Author view

This archive was generated by hypermail 2b29 : Tue May 08 2001 - 14:29:21 PDT