> -----Original Message-----
> From: [email protected]
> [mailto:[email protected]]On Behalf Of Douglas C. Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, September 22, 1999 6:47 PM
> To: [email protected]
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Q: Plane-jumping return currents
>
>
> Hi Larry,
>
> You mention that 20 mV drop is not bad. That is about 10 times the
> amount that can cause an emc problem if concentrated at one frequency.
> That may be close to the case at the resonant frequency of the 2 plane
> structure. In my earlier reply, it was noted that a single trace
> produced a 26 dB difference in emissions for a test board.
>
> Doug
>
> Larry Smith wrote:
> >
> > Eric - The situation you have described is completely true. Return
> > current associated with a trace via must jump from one reference plane
> > to another in stackup 2 and 3 below and in most of the stackups in use
> > in the computer industry today. This is not to much of a problem for a
> > single trace, but can be a major problem for a wide bus (perhaps 64
> > signals) with similar vias and all of the signals switching the same
> > way at the same time. It becomes an SSN noise problem that I call the
> > "power plane bounce" issue. This happens not only at a via but also at
> > a connector and at electronic packages containing drivers or
> > receivers.
> >
> > You are also correct in saying that the return current must come
> > through a capacitance somewhere. The parallel plate capacitance
> > between the planes is generally sufficient for one signal for a short
> > time period (several nSec). But if there is a far end parallel
> > termination, DC current may have to go through this capacitance for a
> > long period of time. Discrete capacitors may be required.
> >
> > How close does a capacitor have to be to be effective? First, look at
> > the time of flight of energy on the power planes: 6 inches/nSec in FR4
> > dielectric. The return current associated with the via creates a
> > radial disturbance that emanates out from the via at that velocity. It
> > will take at least 2 time of flights for the capacitor to be
> > effective: one time of flight for the disturbance to reach the
> > capacitor and another for charge to make it back to the via. For a
> > capacitor to be effective during a 1 nSec rise time, it must be within
> > 3 inches of the via.
> >
> > The loop inductance from a capacitor to the power planes is probably
> > more important than the capacitance. Suppose we have a 50 Ohm trace
> > and 1V/nSec edge. The current and return current for the trace is
> > 1V/50Ohms = 20 mA. Most of that return current has to jump planes in
> > stackup 2 and all of the current must jump planes in stackup 3. The
> > inductance of a discrete capacitor is determined mostly by the pads and
> > vias to the power planes. If the power planes are reasonably near the
> > surface of the PCB and the distance between vias is short, the
> > inductance in the capacitor/power-plane loop is around 1 nH. The
> > voltage drop across the loop inductance is V=L*di/dt = 1nH*.02A/1nSec =
> > 20mV, not bad. But if 10 vias are involved then we have 10X the
> > current and 200mV of drop across the capacitor loop inductance.
> >
> > I have come to the conclusion that the power plane capacitance must
> > conduct the return current during the rise time and for the first
> > several nSec. After that, the time constant involving the loop
> > inductance of the capacitor will allow it to be effective. The amount
> > of capacitance required can be calculated by I=C*dv/dt.
> >
> > The interplane capacitance is easily calculated from
> > C=e0*eR*Area/thickness. Calculate the capacitance and then calculate
> > the voltage drop from dv=I*dt/C. In this case, dt is the amount of
> > time that the interplane capacitance must support the return current.
> > For source terminated lines (open circuit far end) it will just be a
> > few nSec. For far end terminated lines, the return current goes on for
> > ever and discrete capacitors will be required. Eventually, the return
> > path involves the power supply, but it takes micro seconds before
> > it can respond.
> >
> > An interesting side note, the power plane capacitance is not all
> > available immediately. As described above, only the capacitance within
> > a 3 inch radius is available in 1 nSec. If we wait long enough, the
> > radial disturbance on the power plane reaches the edges of the board
> > and bounces back. Power plane resonance's occur. Some other responses
> > to the list have already mentioned that the planes can appear to be
> > inductive at certain frequencies and at certain positions on the
> > board. The best way to look at the planes is by impedance rather than
> > capacitance calculations. But that is a long discussion and this note
> > has gotten too long already..
> >
> > regards,
> > Larry Smith
> > Sun Microsystems
> >
> > PS - Mike Jenkins has already mentioned that many of these issues
> > go away with differential signals (true!). But for those 'gluttons for
> > punishment' who are trying to push single ended signals as far as
> > they can, this stuff is real important.
> >
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > Consider a few different partial stackups each with a via:
> > >
> > >
> > > Stackup 1
> > > | |----------- trace B
> > > plane =========== | | ==========
> > > trace A ------------| |
> > >
> > >
> > > Stackup 2
> > >
> > > plane =========== | | ==========
> > > trace A ------------| |
> > > trace B | |-----------
> > > plane =========== | | ==========
> > >
> > >
> > > Stackup 3
> > > | |----------- trace B
> > > plane =========== | | ==========
> > > plane =========== | | ==========
> > > trace A ------------| |
> > >
> > >
> > > In stackup 1, the return currents for trace A and trace B just need to
> > > migrate to the other side of the the plane which is fairly
> easy and has a
> > > low impedance. However, this stackup is not preferred for PCB
> > > manufacturability reasons.
> > >
> > > In stackups 2 and 3, the return current for trace A moving to
> trace B has
> > > to jump planes. The only place that can occur is via a
> capacitance. Some
> > > capacitance is provided by the interplane capacitance which
> works better in
> > > stackup 3 than it does in stackup 2. Otherwise, a nearby
> bypass cap must
> > > be found. The farther away the cap is, the larger the inductance (and
> > > impedance) of the return current path.
> > >
> > > My system is running pretty fast (> 1 Gbps).
> > >
> > > My questions:
> > >
> > > 1. Is what I've described generally true?
> > >
> > > 2. How could one analyze how far away a "nearby" cap can be
> and not degrade
> > > the signal too much?
> > >
> > > 3. How does the value of the cap affect this? Clearly we want a low
> > > inductance package. Do I just go for the largest capacitance
> that fits in
> > > a low-inductance package?
> > >
> > > 4. How could one analyze if the interplane capacitance is
> sufficient for
> > > this purpose?
> > >
> > > -Eric
> > >
> > > --
> > >
> > > Eric Goodill Cisco Systems M/S SJ-N2
> > > mailto:[email protected] 170 W Tasman Dr
> > > voice: (408) 527-3460 San Jose CA 95134-1706
> > > fax: (408) 527-3460 (yes, the same)
> >
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> --
> -----------------------------------------------------------
> ___ _ Doug Smith
> \ / ) P.O. Box 1457
> ========= Los Gatos, CA 95031-1457
> _ / \ / \ _ TEL/FAX: 408-356-4186/358-3799
> / /\ \ ] / /\ \ Mobile: 408-858-4528
> | q-----( ) | o | Email: [email protected]
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