+++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Fri, 24 Aug 2001 22:03:21 -0700 From: Jeff Stai WK6I Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) The C3SS is a FINE antenna, but I would hesitate to spin it on a TV rotator. The hexbeam looks more appropriate for that use. (I do need a portable solution myself and I hadn't remembered the Hexbeam. If I can convince myself that band changes can be quick, I might go for it. thanks!) - - jeff wk6i At 07:53 PM 8/24/01, Mark J. Dulcey wrote: >John Clifford wrote: >>Greetings, >>I'm looking to buy some sort of small beam for 20m and up. Practical >>considerations prevent me from going the huge tower route (it WILL happen >>sometime in the future!), but I'd like to get something 30' AGL or more >>without offending the neighbors or the wife. Based upon the reviews on eHam >>the short list consists of the Butternut Butterfly, the Cushcraft MA-5B, and >>the TGM Mini-Quad. These (or something similar in size) were chosen also >>because they are not much bigger than the non-used TV log periodic antenna >>currently shading the chimney, and they can be turned by a TV rotor. My >>goal is to get something up that will outperform a static dipole hung at the >>same height. > >If you've got the budget, other candidates would include the Force 12 C-3SS and the Traffie Technology Hexbeam. They're both rather expensive, but the reviews are favorable. They're a bit bigger than the others you named, but still significantly smaller than a standard tribander. > >Based on what I've heard, one antenna to avoid is the Mosley Mini-33. jeff stai radio stuff: WK6I in DM13 rocket stuff: NAR #21059 TRA #3356 Level 2 Cert. email: jstai at home.com or wk6i at arrl.net ROC web page: http://www.rocstock.org/ LDRS web page: http://www.ldrs20.org/ +++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Sat, 25 Aug 2001 10:28:28 +0200 From: "lpec" Subject: [Elecraft] RE: 20 Mhz and up antenna Hallo all, I'm ussing since a while a D2T all band antenna, look at www.antenna.it Hams, D2T It works vy well above 14 Mhz also on 6 Mtr.s and 2 Mtr Gain aprox 4 a 6 db turnable with TV rotor see testrapport 72/73 de Bert PA0LPE 8Q7PA K2 # 1077 # 2139 +++++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:34:45 -0400 From: Bill Coleman Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) On 8/24/01 1:29 PM, John Clifford at johnclif at ix.netcom.com wrote: >I'm looking to buy some sort of small beam for 20m and up. Practical >considerations prevent me from going the huge tower route (it WILL happen >sometime in the future!), but I'd like to get something 30' AGL or more >without offending the neighbors or the wife. Based upon the reviews on eHam >the short list consists of the Butternut Butterfly, the Cushcraft MA-5B, and >the TGM Mini-Quad. I owned a Butternut HF4B. I'm familiar with the MA-5B. I used to have the HF4B up. I replaced it with a Cushcraft A3S. The A3S is nearly twice as big as the HF4B, but it performs more than twice better. The MA-5B is similar in size to the A3S. The specs speak for themselves. The MA-5B looks like a poor compromise to get 5 bands. You can turn an antenna the size of an A3S (14 foot boom) with a TV rotator. I'd recommend the in-line type (old CDE AR22 / 44). I used an AR22 for 8 years, and it worked great. There are other small beams of this type. The TA33jr, the TH2 and TH3 come to mind. You might look for one of these types on the used market. These tribander designs are 20 or more years old, but they still perform OK. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: aa4lr at arrl.net Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 +++++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 18:36:12 -0400 From: "Anthony A. Luscre" Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) Bill Coleman wrote: --snip--- > > There are other small beams of this type. The TA33jr, the TH2 and TH3 > come to mind. You might look for one of these types on the used market. > I would add two additional items to your list- Sommer Log-Yagis X403 or x500. The X403 has an 8 ft boom and X503 has a 15 boom. I have the X508 and it has been great, quality construction, quality workmanship and great performance. Although the x500 series may too big take a look at x400 at http://www.sommerantennas.com/ - -- |--------------------------| Anthony A. Luscre K8ZT Stow, Ohio |--------------------------| ++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 17:48:00 -0500 From: "Stuart Rohre" Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) The A3 is a good beam, I have used one at Field Days in the past. For any used beam it makes a big difference to clean their overlapping joints up with a Scotch Brite pad, then apply No Ox or similar anti oxidation grease immediately. Trust that any beam that sat up for awhile needs clean up before use. Especially smaller beams Like the TA 33 Jr. or A3, that have smaller diameter elements. Surface area resistance is everything to their good working. Aluminum oxidizes immediately after cleaning, thus the grease must be ready to go, and put on as you finish each joint. Also, make sure you have the right instructions and trap positions for any used antenna, and mark the settings on the elements for the favorite band Voice or CW. Many times beams are hauled out to Field Days without adequate instructions, assembled in what seems a logical manner, only to not work well, because of trap reversals, or wrong element lengths or spacing. Finally, feeding some older beams requires the right matching balun, or substitute, or a properly wound cable choke without the first and last turns touching, or in the case of old Mosely beams, you can connect coax right to the split driven element without a balun! I did not believe that was right, but confirmed it with a factory engineer, who also added that a cable choke of wound up coax would not hurt, if kept symmetric to the element center. 72, Stuart K5KVH ++++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 21:39:02 -0400 From: "Mark J. Dulcey" Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) Anthony A. Luscre wrote: > > I would add two additional items to your list- Sommer Log-Yagis X403 or x500. > The X403 has an 8 ft boom and X503 has a 15 boom. I have the X508 and it has been > great, quality construction, quality workmanship and great performance. Although > the x500 series may too big take a look at x400 at http://www.sommerantennas.com/ Although the XP403 has only an 8 ft. boom, it weighs 40 pounds and has a wind load of 6.8 sq. ft. That's a lot higher than the other antennas people have been discussing; probably too much for a TV rotor or simple roof mount. It also has 35 foot long elements, which are rather large. Aside from that, it looks like a fine antenna. Most of the antennas that have been under discussion have reduced length elements. Aside from the reduction in weight and wind load, the reduction of visual impact may be important in some applications. A really small antenna like a Mini-Quad or MA5B is likely to attract less attention from the neighbors than a full-size tribander. Let's compare the statistics of some reduced-size contenders: Antenna Element len Boom len Weight Wind load TGM MQ-1 11' 4.5' 16 lb. 1.5 sq. ft. TGM MQ-2 12.1' 4.5' 17 lb. 1.6 sq. ft. TGM MQ-3 11.4' 10.2' 22 lb. 2.6 sq. ft. TGM MQ-4 12.1' 10.2' 26 lb. 2.8 sq. ft. Mosley Mini-33 16.7' 6' 10 lb. 2.5 sq. ft. Mini 33-A-WARC specs not yet on Mosley web site Butternut HA-5B 12.5' 6' 22 lb. 3 sq. ft. Cushcraft MA-5B 17.1' 7.3' 26.5 lb. 3.22 sq. ft. Hexbeam HX-5Bi 18.8'* 18.8'* 19.5 lb. 5 sq. ft.* Force 12 C-3SS 27' 11.7' 27 lb. 4.4 sq. ft. Sommer XP403 35.3' 8' 40 lb. 6.8 sq. ft. * the Hexbeam isn't directly comparable in size or wind load to other antennas, due to its unique shape. Its effective wind load is reported to be less than its actual frontal area. And some small full-size tribanders for comparison: Mosley TA-33M 28' 14' 37 lb. 5.7 sq. ft. Cushcraft A3S 27.8' 14' 30 lb. 4.4 sq. ft. Force 12 C-3S 37.5' 11.7' 26 lb. 5 sq. ft. Hy-Gain TH-3JRS 27.2' 12' 21 lb. 3.35 sq. ft. Hy-Gain TH-3MK4 27.4' 14' 35 lb. 4.6 sq. ft. I'm not trying to compare performance of these antennas, just size. All specs are from the manufacturers, and the weights are a mixture of shipping weight and "installed weight"; some manufacturers give one, some the other. The C-3SS is listed as a "reduced size" antenna because it's smaller than the standard Force 12 antenna - but it's as big as a lot of the full-size tribanders. Meanwhile, the TH-3JRS has a low enough wind load rating that it might be a good alternative to the reduced size antennas, despite being a nearly full-size tribander. +++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 27 Aug 2001 23:52:27 -0400 From: Bill Coleman Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling (Elecraft-related, of course!) On 8/27/01 9:39 PM, Mark J. Dulcey at mark at buttery.org wrote: >Let's compare the statistics of some reduced-size contenders: > >Antenna Element len Boom len Weight Wind load > >TGM MQ-1 11' 4.5' 16 lb. 1.5 sq. ft. >TGM MQ-2 12.1' 4.5' 17 lb. 1.6 sq. ft. >TGM MQ-3 11.4' 10.2' 22 lb. 2.6 sq. ft. >TGM MQ-4 12.1' 10.2' 26 lb. 2.8 sq. ft. >Mosley Mini-33 16.7' 6' 10 lb. 2.5 sq. ft. >Mini 33-A-WARC specs not yet on Mosley web site >Butternut HA-5B 12.5' 6' 22 lb. 3 sq. ft. >Cushcraft MA-5B 17.1' 7.3' 26.5 lb. 3.22 sq. ft. >Hexbeam HX-5Bi 18.8'* 18.8'* 19.5 lb. 5 sq. ft.* >Force 12 C-3SS 27' 11.7' 27 lb. 4.4 sq. ft. >Sommer XP403 35.3' 8' 40 lb. 6.8 sq. ft. > >* the Hexbeam isn't directly comparable in size or wind load to >other antennas, due to its unique shape. Its effective wind load >is reported to be less than its actual frontal area. > >And some small full-size tribanders for comparison: > >Mosley TA-33M 28' 14' 37 lb. 5.7 sq. ft. >Cushcraft A3S 27.8' 14' 30 lb. 4.4 sq. ft. >Force 12 C-3S 37.5' 11.7' 26 lb. 5 sq. ft. >Hy-Gain TH-3JRS 27.2' 12' 21 lb. 3.35 sq. ft. >Hy-Gain TH-3MK4 27.4' 14' 35 lb. 4.6 sq. ft. Beware comparing measurements of "wind load". Not all manufacturers use the same units. (Ask yourself, "Square feet of what?") >The C-3SS is listed as a "reduced size" antenna because it's >smaller than the standard Force 12 antenna - but it's as big as a >lot of the full-size tribanders. The key is the reduced boomlength. Other things being equal, the gain realizable in a yagi antenna has nearly nothing to do with the number of elements, and is proportional to the boom length in wavelengths. Tribanders represent a compromise in optimal element placement. The A3S has a wide element spacing on 10m (.2 wl), but much shorter on 20m (.1 wl). The Force 12 designs are superior to many of these old trapped yagis because they opt for more optimum spacing of the elements. The C3SS really only uses two elements per band. (It is three 2 element beams colocated on the same boom) >Meanwhile, the TH-3JRS has a low >enough wind load rating that it might be a good alternative to >the reduced size antennas, despite being a nearly full-size I think any of the antennas you list with a 10-14 foot boom length would be good performers, certainly better than anything with a 6-8 foot boom. There's also another class of tribanders with 15-24 foot booms (KT34A, Cushcraft A4S), as well as another class with 25-up foot booms (KT34XA). I would divide these into four classes: Short: 6-8 foot boom Small: 10-14 foot boom Medium: 15-24 foot boom Large: 25-up foot boom I wouldn't recommend anything in the Short catageory, unless there's no way you can fit a Small tribander. Bill Coleman, AA4LR, PP-ASEL Mail: aa4lr at arrl.net Quote: "Not within a thousand years will man ever fly!" -- Wilbur Wright, 1901 ++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 07:41:48 -0400 From: Tim ORourke Subject: [Elecraft] Antennas and other rambling I will second the Sommers, I use the big brother 807 but I am confident the 403 or it's dirivatives are excellant performers for their size. Alf's workmanship and customer support are top notch. Tim O'Rourke KG4CHX ++++++++++++++++ Date: Wed, 29 Aug 2001 06:52:33 -0600 From: "Santa Fe" Subject: [Elecraft] Re: SMALL Antennas The small (14' boom) six band, no trap Sommer has been in use here for ten years. It may have a short boom, BUT it isn't small! The elements are up to 37 feet long and it weighs a hefty 75 pounds. I had an A3 up before it. The Sommer is FAR and away the better antenna. It has the gain of a four element beam on 10/12/15 because the driven element is a gain antenna in itself. It has no traps or loading for loss. The trade off is that the pattern (F/B) is less than perfect on some frequencies. All elements are driven on this antenna. It is not a yagi. How good is it? 240 QRP countries with the K2 so far. QRP DXCC on all of its bands. But forget about the 40 meter loading coil 73, FD # 700 W5YA (op: kt5x) ++++++++++++++++++