Re: [SI-LIST] : SI analysis: IBIS vs. HSpice

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From: Christian Trudeau (trudeauc@us.ibm.com)
Date: Fri Jan 19 2001 - 12:12:25 PST


Perry,

Funny you should ask. No not yet but I am looking into Ansoft's SI3D Field
Solver as another source for simulation software. It is on my todo list.
Do you have experience with these solvers, I here that Ansoft's stuff is
highly regard by some people here at IBM.

Thanks,

Christian Trudeau
IBM Corporation
ASIC Core Development Circuit Board Design Team
E-Mail : trudeauc@us.ibm.com
Phone : 802-769-5333

                                                                                                                                               
                    "Perry Qu"
                    <perry.qu@alc To: Christian Trudeau/Burlington/IBM@IBMUS
                    atel.com> cc:
                                         Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : SI analysis: IBIS vs. HSpice
                    01/19/2001
                    02:18 PM
                                                                                                                                               
                                                                                                                                               

Christian:

Have you compared Start HSPICE internal field solver with other field
solver such as Maxwell 2D, or have you done any
hardware correlation? I would be very interested to know about your
comments about this.

Thanks in advance

Perry Qu

Christian Trudeau wrote:

> Tom,
>
> I have extracted the W Type Transmission model using the Star-HSPICE
> internal field solver. I specify the construction of the net on the
board
> through physical dimensions and properties and then let HSPICE do the
rest.
> There are two other ways of specifying the W model; one is to use RLGC
> matrices and the other is to use the U model as part of the W model
> specification.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christian Trudeau
> IBM Corporation
> ASIC Core Development Circuit Board Design Team
> E-Mail : trudeauc@us.ibm.com
> Phone : 802-769-5333
>
>
> "Dagostino, Tom"
> <tom_dagostino@me To: Christian
Trudeau/Burlington/IBM@IBMUS, si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> ntorg.com> cc:
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] :
SI analysis: IBIS vs. HSpice
> 01/19/2001 01:19
> PM
>
>
>
> How are you extracting the transmission line models when you do the
HSPICE
> simulations?
>
> Tom Dagostino
> IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager
> SDD
> Mentor Graphics Corp.
> 503-685-1613
> tom_dagostino@mentor.com
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Christian Trudeau [mailto:trudeauc@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Friday, January 19, 2001 8:03 AM
> To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: [SI-LIST] : SI analysis: IBIS vs. HSpice
>
> Todd,
>
> I am currently in the throws of performing some pre-routed simulations on
a
> design I am working on. In the past I have stuck to running my analysis
> using HSPICE. Typically this analysis has been limited to reflection SI
> and not crosstalk or simultaneous switching. We work mostly with serial
> data link verification so following the net from output driver through
the
> interconnect to the receiver is the topology of choice. We then evaluate
> the data eye by simulating and measuring data jitter. HSPICE has been
> working fairly well, the W model for transmission lines has improved in
the
> recent future and therefore improved our hardware to simulation
> correlation.
>
> We are currently trying to work with our Cadence EDA tool SpecctraQuest
to
> take a different approach to simulation. The tool has advertised the
> ability to per from Crosstalk and SS analysis as well as Reflection.
This
> sounds great and we are trying to use it. The problem is that Cadence
> ultimately uses their own proprietary model type (DML) which they derive
> from IBIS models. The trouble is that our IO folks for the TX and RCVs
> create SPICE models. So I must translate the models from SPICE to IBIS.
> This has been fairly painful, the models for our components are fairly
> complex. I have yet to get an accurate IBIS model for a given SPICE
model.
> I am fairly sure that with enough time we could get close but we don't
have
> the time. So for now we stick with net by net simulation with HSPICE.
It
> sure would be nice if Cadence imported the SPICE model directly.
>
> Conclusion is that SPICE to IBIS conversion is painful and time
consuming,
> not even considering model accuracy.
>
> When we eventually need to attack other types of simulation (SS and
> Crosstalk) we are looking at very complex multinet HSPICE decks .... Oh
no
> :)
>
> Thanks,
>
> Christian Trudeau
> IBM Corporation
> ASIC Core Development Circuit Board Design Team
> E-Mail : trudeauc@us.ibm.com
> Phone : 802-769-5333
>
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