RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

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From: Dagostino, Tom (tom_dagostino@mentorg.com)
Date: Mon Dec 18 2000 - 17:05:20 PST


Ken

I need to correct a few misperceptions

First, we at Mentor Graphics do have a lab that does make IBIS models by
making measurements on ICs. We have been doing this for a number of years,
I personally since 1994. We have made models of over 11,000 ICs using this
process. We make these models for end users who have not been able to find
models from vendors, who want to check the validity of models that have
been made by IC vendors and for IC vendors who distribute models from their
web sites. These models are correct by construction, they will load and run
in any IBIS simulator. We have spent lots of time ensuring the automated
process is reliable and repeatable.

Second, we also make IBIS models from SPICE input. We have been doing this
now for about 4 years. We have had to generate our own tools because we
cannot rely on the "freeware" that is available. The freeware does not meet
our requirements for producing quality models. We also have developed tools
to verify the models produce the same results as the source SPICE under the
same conditions.

We also make models of connectors from SPICE data. We can also make models
of connectors or? from TDR measurement. We at times also make models of
very proprietary devices by having the customer supply the output of the
required SPICE runs and we then construct the model.

So when was state that we create models from "devices or a SPICE source you
supply" we are saying that we will create a model from the parts you send us
or from a SPICE deck you send us or from about any source of data. We
request the customer supply us with either the parts or the SPICE deck
because we do not want to go out and purchase IC's in low volume. Many
times the ICs that we are to model are custom parts that we could not
purchase anyway. Also, since we do not buy in volume we have no leverage to
get ICs in short supply. As far as SPICE decks are concerned, we ask the
customer to get the SPICE deck for the same reason, we have little or no
leverage getting proprietary data from an IC vendor. IC vendors do respond
to requests from their end customers.

Yes, in the past we did go out and purchase IC's but unfortunately, too many
times the IC's that we were told to model were not the ones the customer
really wanted. If we get the IC from the customer we can usually assume
that is what is going to be used in the design. Since I don't like wasting
my time or my customer's time we determined this was the best way of
ensuring the correct part was modeled.

I haven't taken the time today to respond to each and every issue raised
because I've been a little busy responding to customer requests. That is my
priority. I do read and contribute to this group. Weston works just a
couple of steps from me and I do consult with him and others around here
about how we should do things, looking for the perspective of a board
designer. Weston is a very capable designer and we are lucky to have him on
our staff helping customers solve problems. No, Weston does not work in the
lab but I do, I'm there every day.

I'm going to be in Colorado the week of January 8, if you would like to meet
and talk about what my group can and cannot do I'd be happy to do that.

Regards

Tom Dagostino
IBIS and Tau Modeling Manager
SDD
Mentor Graphics Corp.
503-685-1613
tom_dagostino@mentor.com

-----Original Message-----
From: Beal, Weston [mailto:weston_beal@mentorg.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 3:29 PM
To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

I can't leave this the way it is. I just want to answer Ken's question to
help clarify a few things. My comments inline below preceded by >>>.

No response required.

Regards,
Weston

-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Cantrell [mailto:Ken.Cantrell@srccomp.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 1:00 PM
To: Beal, Weston
Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

Weston,
My apologies if you have a lab, and I do not doubt your word since you can
"run down stairs and see that it exists". You might check though, it's been
a couple of weeks since you've been down there. This means you aren't a
member of that same lab, so how can your input be valid about what tests are
performed or not performed in that lab.
Why is it that you are the one sounding off instead of the lab manager?
>>> he doesn't read this email list. You can catch him on the ibis lists

Isn't that Tony?
>>> no

It sure sounded like Tony (that Michael N. referred us to)
was the person in authority. Someone who could give us correct, real data
on what Mentor had to offer, and posted the URL in his e-mail. My confusion,
and perhaps you can explain it away, is your requirement that the user
supply the lab data .OR. (that's C for logical OR) the spice file. From
your
web site ... again:
"ICX Project Modeling
"From the parts list supplied to us at the time of order we provide
qualityIBIS models from our Standard Library matching the exact devices you
are using or **create models from devices or a SPICE source you supply.**"
It's **starred** for you now. Do you see how that would be
misleading/confusing?
>>> no. devices (actual IC) you supply || (that's C for logical OR) a SPICE
source you supply.

You wouldn't need either if you had a lab to test the parts now would you?
>>> yes. you need an IC to measure.

If you do have a lab, then you and the people that manage your web site need
to get coordinated because Mentor has created the perception that this is
not the case. Also, why are you showing up so late in the game?
>>> I had to clarify your incorrect statement that Mentor did not have a
lab.

Don't your
own personnel know you have a lab?
>>> yes. pretty much everyone knows.

Are you the only one that's figured this
out?
>>> no. take a poll.

Why wasn't this clarification put forth sooner, mentioned by one of
your other representatives, like Scott McMorrow, who joined in the
discussion prior to you?
>>> They were responding to other points. Scott is not a representative of
Mentor Graphics. We like him and he's a smart guy, but he works for Siqual.

You have too many loose ends, too little
information coordination, and too, too, too much buttcovering BS. In case
no one has clued you in, Scott had things on a level keel until you popped
in. You're not a design engineer, are you?
>>> no. I'm a signal integrity engineer. That's all I do, SI.

You sure don't talk like one.
If you're not, you're pounding a company drum and your input is already
suspect. This is an engineering data exchange group, not a sales/marketing
forum, and I for one am tired of this "discussion" since it has degenerated
into nothing of technical interest. You represent your company well.

So anyway,Weston, that's how I figure that.

Ken

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