RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

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From: Ken Cantrell (Ken.Cantrell@srccomp.com)
Date: Mon Dec 18 2000 - 13:01:38 PST


Thanks, Mike.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Nudelman [mailto:mnudelman@tellium.com]
Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 12:51 PM
To: Beal, Weston
Cc: 'Ken Cantrell'; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

Ken,

I just recently, few days ago, spoke to a techsupport person from Mentor,
and he
stated, that they DO have a lab, that will take your part and measure it for
IBIS model creation.

Mike.

"Beal, Weston" wrote:

> Ken,
>
> You have now stated twice that Mentor does not have a lab to measure parts
> in order to create IBIS files. How do you figure that? I was in that lab
> just a couple of weeks ago. If you want me to, I could run downstairs to
> verify that it's still there with people working in it. Mentor Graphics
has
> a lab to measure the characteristic of actual ICs to create IBIS files and
> we also have a dedicated group to make IBIS files from SPICE models. The
> other important ingredient, as Scott McMorrow pointed out, is the
expertise
> to use (or create) software tools to create and verify quality IBIS
models.
> Just because someone can get s2ibis2 to run doesn't mean they have a good
> IBIS file. Check the web and you'll see what I mean. You can also get a
> free Java compiler on the web. That doesn't make us all programmers.
>
> Regards,
> Weston
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Ken Cantrell [mailto:Ken.Cantrell@srccomp.com]
> Sent: Monday, December 18, 2000 9:08 AM
> To: Scott McMorrow
> Cc: Dunbar, Tony; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
>
> Scott,
> "If you have a problem with a particular vendor's approach, then by all
> means boycott that vendor and do it yourself. But when you "do it
yourself"
> please remember to figure out what the true fully burdened cost of your
> engineering work truly is. You will find that you actually spend much
more
> in real accounting dollars than you would have spent with an outside
> source, and in many cases your result will not be as good as theirs. They
> have the time to develop a "quality" process."
>
> Just a clarification.
> We are all unfortunately familiar with an "IBIS ain't an IBIS" sometimes;
it
> is frequently discussed right here. The problem for the majority of us is
> that the trail ends at not being able to get the files, any files. Then
we
> are stuck with generic driver simulation, which is better than nothing,
but
> not much. Installing a hardware lab to perform IBIS compliant testing is
> cost prohibitive for the majority, and I agree, would soak up the
> engineering time. Mentor doesn't have a hardware lab either. We need
> someone that has a lab .AND. a dedicated "software" group, integrated and
> focused to produce truly compliant spice/ibis files in a pre-release mode.
> Pre-release. Bold that last sentence, stressing pre-release, and forward
it
> upstream to as senior a marketing person as you can. Title it "Marketing
> Direction Imperative". Partner with an outside lab or grow your own. I
> really should be charging you guys.
> Another alternative in lieu of a lab, but it would be better if you had
> both, is to have a group, a subset of what Mentor has now, dedicated to
> obtaining this information from the vendor (we know about MAP, right idea,
> just not enough). Lobby the suckers, be forceful, be the voice of the
> consumer base. Sleeping giants are hard to wake up. Our need for
> pre-release files is growing constantly ( or exponentially it seems).
Once
> you have the files, it is trivial to produce the final product even
> factoring in burdened engineering dollars. Mentor, Cadence, Innoveda, et
> al, the one-stop shopping giants of this industry, should shift focus.
The
> problem is getting the information from the vendors, not processing it.
The
> thing inside the box is the data, the gift wrapping is the spice/ibis
file.
>
> I concur that economies of scale exist when a group focuses on a single
> product versus "do it yourself". Mom & Pop shops can't compete in
> quantity/cost, and sometimes even in quality, depending on how the large
> operation is run. My intent here was not to slay another dragon, but to
let
> you know that the market direction is incorrect. It is not supplying what
> the customer base needs. There's money to be made here because the demand
> will only increase with time. The company that delivers the right product
> at the right price will take the lion's share of the market. And don't
> forget to unbundle it from you product line so you don't look like a
shmuck.
>
> Ken
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Scott McMorrow [mailto:scott@vasthorizons.com]
> Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 10:00 PM
> To: Ken Cantrell
> Cc: Dunbar, Tony; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
>
> All,
>
> If the process of creating a high quality IBIS model from the vendor's
> HSPICE deck and s2ibis were all that were necessary, then
> Ken's statements would be quite true. Unfortunately, this is not the
> case for many instances.
>
> There are several vendors out here who perform the service of IBIS
> model generation and correlation. For some the cost is in bundling the
> service with a particular tool. For others, like ourselves, it is
charging
> the
> true engineering cost of creating and validating these models.
>
> The IBIS specification is free to all who would choose to use it. But
> anyone
> who has participated in the specification compliance process knows that
> it is one thing to say than one complies with a specification, and quite
> another
> to actually comply.
>
> If you have a problem with a particular vendor's approach, then by all
> means boycott that vendor and do it yourself. But when you "do it
yourself"
> please remember to figure out what the true fully burdened cost of your
> engineering work truly is. You will find that you actually spend much
more
> in real accounting dollars than you would have spent with an outside
> source, and in many cases your result will not be as good as theirs. They
> have the time to develop a "quality" process.
>
> best regards,
>
> scott
>
> --
> Scott McMorrow
> Principal Engineer
> SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering
> 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road
> Tualatin, OR 97062-3090
> (503) 885-1231
> http://www.siqual.com
>
> Ken Cantrell wrote:
>
> > Tony & all,
> > This is a long one (all), but well worth the wait. Please read to the
> end.
> >
> > You'll have to forgive my "forceful posting", it's a 60's thing. If
there
> > were another avenue I would certainly use it. It is a serious problem,
> and
> > the only way you can get some movement, after other means have failed,
is
> to
> > be forceful. Sometimes a wilderness adventure does the trick.
> >
> > I vectored to your site via your link and looked at MAP and qualityIBIS.
> > Data referenced was cut and pasted from you own site.
> >
> > qualityIBIS:
> > "Visual inspection for completeness and reality
> > Model checking using ibis_chk
> > Graphical inspection using s2iplt or winibis
> > Simulation using ICX "
> >
> > *s2iplt is available at eda.org for free. Perl is required to run the
> > application. It is free. WinIBIS is posted on the IBIS home page and
is
> > supplied by HyperLynx, for free. Everything here except simulation with
> ICX
> > is public domain. Anyone can sim the file with the sim pack of THEIR
> > choice.
> >
> > ICX Standard Library
> > 11,000 models
> > Licensed per site
> > Low cost and regular updates.
> > Updated every six months.
> > New models added with each update.
> > *Doesn't Cadence do the same thing (same amount of files), just bundled
> with
> > the product?
> >
> > ICX Project Modeling
> > "From the parts list supplied to us at the time of order we provide
> > qualityIBIS models from our Standard Library matching the exact devices
> you
> > are using or create models from devices or a SPICE source you supply."
> > *Why don't you throw in the Standard Library along with the Custom
models,
> > it's cheap.
> > *Created from devices. Your group doesn't create the files from
devices,
> > the user has to supply the information themselves from their lab data.
If
> I
> > had a lab set up to measure and collect all of the data required for
IBIS
> > compliant testing, I would certainly have the capability to create the
> IBIS
> > file. Second case, user supplied SPICE file. If I have the SPICE file,
I
> > can convert it myself with free spice2ibis converters in a selection of
> > OS's. At: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/tools.htm.
> >
> > The marketing plan and goal for the project can be found at:
> > http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/alliance.html. It's a good concept
> and
> > it's nice that Mentor has taken the first step. A small incremental cost
> for
> > the convenience of having all of the IBIS files in one place is worth
> > paying, especially for people who don't know where all this stuff is
> > located, and really don't care. They just want the files. What I
object
> to
> > is your tying the service to exclusive use of Mentor product (sold at
> > reduced rates as per the above url). It's kind of like the
> > Microsoft/Netscape thing, you know? Bob Ross, from Mentor, IBIS Open
> Forum
> > Librarian, vectors anyone, for free, to all available IBIS sites,
indexed
> by
> > vendor. Excellent work Bob. Many thanks on many occasions. Done in
the
> > true spirit of the IBIS group. This is at /ibis/model.htm instead of
> > /ibis/tools.htm.
> >
> > So far you aren't capable of providing any service that we can't provide
> for
> > ourselves given access to the same information, the lab data or the
Spice
> > files.
> >
> > MAP:
> > Below is the member list of the alliance. You will note, Tony, Toshiba
> > isn't on there. Remember, this was all about not being able to get a
> > Toshiba part? Excerpt from your e-mail:
> >
> > Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon
> vendor
> > cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
> > suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.
> >
> > *Why should we vector them to Mentor? You are trying to lock us into an
> > exclusive contract. I prefer free choice, free speech and free thought,
> > thank you very much.
> >
> > In conclusion, I think Mentor needs to rethink it's marketing strategy
for
> > the group. It would be whiz-bang if you had an on-site lab that
performed
> > the IBIS testing, and pulled it into both spice and ibis formats. Now
> that
> > would be worth buying, and you would be providing a service that is very
> > much needed, and in line with the Open Forum intent. I would also
suggest
> > that you change the "buy the Mentor product or no deal" mode that you
have
> > now, and let your mainline product stand on it's own merits. I hear
it's
> > pretty good, but I don't like to be forced into doing anything. The
> > projected marketing pull-through won't happen if you are perceived as
> > monopolistic.
> > I will be reviewing your product in Q1. I have the Tau and
Interconnectix
> > disks, and will request a license file upgrade soon (ran out of time on
> the
> > first one, too busy to even open the disks). Maintaining the intent
that
> > Bob Ross and the other founders of the forum had, as an aid to Signal
> > Integrity, is more important than your current marketing direction. Or
> to
> > put it another way, what would you think if HyperLynx started charging
you
> > to use WinIBIS? You are not providing a true value add at this point,
you
> > are simply shuffling paper.
> >
> > Tellin' it like it is,
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > Post script: (All) Todd Westerhoff (uses SpectaQuest as I remember) sent
> an
> > e-mail stating that Toshiba supplied him with HSpice and IBIS for one
> their
> > products, but makes no claims to broad product line support.
> > *******
> > *Member list of MAP*
> >
> > Membership
> >
> > Actel Corporation
> >
> > Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.
> >
> > Agilent Technologies Inc.
> >
> > Cypress Semiconductor Inc.
> >
> > Dallas Semiconductor
> >
> > Data Device Corporation
> >
> > Micron Technology
> >
> > Mitel Corporation
> >
> > National Semiconductor
> >
> > Pericom
> >
> > Sharp
> >
> > Ken
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > [mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Dunbar, Tony
> > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 11:05 AM
> > To: 'si-list@silab.eng.sun.com'
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Michael Nudelman is quite correct, of course. Our modeling group
probably
> > could do these IBIS models either from measurement or Spice. Yes, there
is
> a
> > fixed-price fee and it probably equates to about the cost to your
> company's
> > overheads for you spending about 3 hours trying to figure out how you're
> > going to get an IBIS model for these parts or fix-up what you have!
> >
> > I have also read Ken Cantrell's forceful posting on this issue, too.
There
> > is another possible approach here which does not involve banishing any
> > vendor out into wilderness:
> >
> > Part of Mentor's IBIS modeling strategy and solutions is the Model
> Alliance
> > Program. I have included a URL below where more introductory information
> can
> > be found but, essentially, MAP is based on a partnership between
Mentor's
> > IBIS modeling group and silicon vendors whereby Mentor's modeling group
do
> > the IBIS modeling directly for the silicon vendor. The models are then
> > provided back to the silicon vendor for him to distribute as he wishes;
> e.g.
> > posting them on their web-site for all to download.
> >
> > Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon
> vendor
> > cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
> > suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.
> >
> > Here's the URL: http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/index.html
> >
> > Anyone with specific interests or questions, including silicon vendors,
> > please contact me directly off-line from the SI-LIST.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Tony Dunbar
> > Mentor Graphics/ICX
> > Dallas, TX
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Michael Nudelman [mailto:mnudelman@tellium.com]
> > Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 8:06 AM
> > To: Christoph Hillen
> > Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models
> >
> > I never tried it,
> >
> > But Mentor has division that will take your part and create IBIS model
of
> > it.
> > Probably, for a fee.
> >
> > Christoph Hillen wrote:
> >
> > > hi all,
> > >
> > > I'm searching for IBIS models of the Toshiba devices
> > >
> > > TH58V128FT
> > > TC58128FT
> > > TC55V4000ST-70
> > >
> > > It seems that the company itself does not provide models, and they are
> > obviously
> > > not able to answer any questions regarding models.
> > > Does anyone of you know a source for these?
> > >
> > > Thanks a lot
> > >
> > > Christoph Hillen
> > > Utimaco Safeware AG
> > > Germany
> > >
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