RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

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From: Ken Cantrell (Ken.Cantrell@srccomp.com)
Date: Fri Dec 15 2000 - 19:49:59 PST


Tony & all,
This is a long one (all), but well worth the wait. Please read to the end.

You'll have to forgive my "forceful posting", it's a 60's thing. If there
were another avenue I would certainly use it. It is a serious problem, and
the only way you can get some movement, after other means have failed, is to
be forceful. Sometimes a wilderness adventure does the trick.

I vectored to your site via your link and looked at MAP and qualityIBIS.
Data referenced was cut and pasted from you own site.

qualityIBIS:
"Visual inspection for completeness and reality
Model checking using ibis_chk
Graphical inspection using s2iplt or winibis
Simulation using ICX "

*s2iplt is available at eda.org for free. Perl is required to run the
application. It is free. WinIBIS is posted on the IBIS home page and is
supplied by HyperLynx, for free. Everything here except simulation with ICX
is public domain. Anyone can sim the file with the sim pack of THEIR
choice.

ICX Standard Library
11,000 models
Licensed per site
Low cost and regular updates.
  Updated every six months.
  New models added with each update.
*Doesn't Cadence do the same thing (same amount of files), just bundled with
the product?

ICX Project Modeling
"From the parts list supplied to us at the time of order we provide
qualityIBIS models from our Standard Library matching the exact devices you
are using or create models from devices or a SPICE source you supply."
*Why don't you throw in the Standard Library along with the Custom models,
it's cheap.
*Created from devices. Your group doesn't create the files from devices,
the user has to supply the information themselves from their lab data. If I
had a lab set up to measure and collect all of the data required for IBIS
compliant testing, I would certainly have the capability to create the IBIS
file. Second case, user supplied SPICE file. If I have the SPICE file, I
can convert it myself with free spice2ibis converters in a selection of
OS's. At: http://www.eigroup.org/ibis/tools.htm.

The marketing plan and goal for the project can be found at:
http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/alliance.html. It's a good concept and
it's nice that Mentor has taken the first step. A small incremental cost for
the convenience of having all of the IBIS files in one place is worth
paying, especially for people who don't know where all this stuff is
located, and really don't care. They just want the files. What I object to
is your tying the service to exclusive use of Mentor product (sold at
reduced rates as per the above url). It's kind of like the
Microsoft/Netscape thing, you know? Bob Ross, from Mentor, IBIS Open Forum
Librarian, vectors anyone, for free, to all available IBIS sites, indexed by
vendor. Excellent work Bob. Many thanks on many occasions. Done in the
true spirit of the IBIS group. This is at /ibis/model.htm instead of
/ibis/tools.htm.

So far you aren't capable of providing any service that we can't provide for
ourselves given access to the same information, the lab data or the Spice
files.

MAP:
Below is the member list of the alliance. You will note, Tony, Toshiba
isn't on there. Remember, this was all about not being able to get a
Toshiba part? Excerpt from your e-mail:

Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon vendor
cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.

*Why should we vector them to Mentor? You are trying to lock us into an
exclusive contract. I prefer free choice, free speech and free thought,
thank you very much.

In conclusion, I think Mentor needs to rethink it's marketing strategy for
the group. It would be whiz-bang if you had an on-site lab that performed
the IBIS testing, and pulled it into both spice and ibis formats. Now that
would be worth buying, and you would be providing a service that is very
much needed, and in line with the Open Forum intent. I would also suggest
that you change the "buy the Mentor product or no deal" mode that you have
now, and let your mainline product stand on it's own merits. I hear it's
pretty good, but I don't like to be forced into doing anything. The
projected marketing pull-through won't happen if you are perceived as
monopolistic.
I will be reviewing your product in Q1. I have the Tau and Interconnectix
disks, and will request a license file upgrade soon (ran out of time on the
first one, too busy to even open the disks). Maintaining the intent that
Bob Ross and the other founders of the forum had, as an aid to Signal
Integrity, is more important than your current marketing direction. Or to
put it another way, what would you think if HyperLynx started charging you
to use WinIBIS? You are not providing a true value add at this point, you
are simply shuffling paper.

Tellin' it like it is,

Ken

Post script: (All) Todd Westerhoff (uses SpectaQuest as I remember) sent an
e-mail stating that Toshiba supplied him with HSpice and IBIS for one their
products, but makes no claims to broad product line support.
 *******
*Member list of MAP*

Membership

Actel Corporation

Advanced Micro Devices, Inc.

Agilent Technologies Inc.

Cypress Semiconductor Inc.

Dallas Semiconductor

Data Device Corporation

Micron Technology

Mitel Corporation

National Semiconductor

Pericom

Sharp

Ken

-----Original Message-----
From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
[mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Dunbar, Tony
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 11:05 AM
To: 'si-list@silab.eng.sun.com'
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

Hi all,

Michael Nudelman is quite correct, of course. Our modeling group probably
could do these IBIS models either from measurement or Spice. Yes, there is a
fixed-price fee and it probably equates to about the cost to your company's
overheads for you spending about 3 hours trying to figure out how you're
going to get an IBIS model for these parts or fix-up what you have!

I have also read Ken Cantrell's forceful posting on this issue, too. There
is another possible approach here which does not involve banishing any
vendor out into wilderness:

Part of Mentor's IBIS modeling strategy and solutions is the Model Alliance
Program. I have included a URL below where more introductory information can
be found but, essentially, MAP is based on a partnership between Mentor's
IBIS modeling group and silicon vendors whereby Mentor's modeling group do
the IBIS modeling directly for the silicon vendor. The models are then
provided back to the silicon vendor for him to distribute as he wishes; e.g.
posting them on their web-site for all to download.

Anyone who finds themselves in Christoph's situation where a silicon vendor
cannot, for whatever reason, provide IBIS models directly may want to
suggest to them (or encourage them) to look into the MAP.

Here's the URL: http://www.mentor.com/icx/icx_models/index.html

Anyone with specific interests or questions, including silicon vendors,
please contact me directly off-line from the SI-LIST.

Regards,
Tony Dunbar
Mentor Graphics/ICX
Dallas, TX

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Nudelman [mailto:mnudelman@tellium.com]
Sent: Friday, December 15, 2000 8:06 AM
To: Christoph Hillen
Cc: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : searching for Toshiba models

I never tried it,

But Mentor has division that will take your part and create IBIS model of
it.
Probably, for a fee.

Christoph Hillen wrote:

> hi all,
>
> I'm searching for IBIS models of the Toshiba devices
>
> TH58V128FT
> TC58128FT
> TC55V4000ST-70
>
> It seems that the company itself does not provide models, and they are
obviously
> not able to answer any questions regarding models.
> Does anyone of you know a source for these?
>
> Thanks a lot
>
> Christoph Hillen
> Utimaco Safeware AG
> Germany
>
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