**From:** Farrokh Mottahedin (*Farrokh.Mottahedin@quantum.com*)

**Date:** Mon Jul 17 2000 - 10:58:16 PDT

**Next message:**Farrokh Mottahedin: "RE: [SI-LIST] : USB question"**Previous message:**Aubrey_Sparkman@Dell.com: "RE: [SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D"**Maybe in reply to:**Ming: "[SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D"**Next in thread:**Chris Cheng: "RE: [SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D"

TDRs can and have been used to isolate and quantify the effects of vias.

You may be interested in reading an excellent article tiltled "How Do Vias

Affect High-Speed Circuits?" by Lee Ritchey in this month's (July 2000)

issue of Printed Circuit Design.

Farrokh Mottahedin

Quantum Corp.

500 McCarthy Blvd.

Milpitas, CA 95035

(408)324-7934

farrokh.mottahedin@quantum.com

-----Original Message-----

From: Matt Kaufmann [mailto:matt@silicon-spice.com]

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 10:12 AM

To: si-list

Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D

Does TDR have enough resolution to isolate the effects of a single package

via (maybe only 0.1-0.3mm long) from other elements (traces, other vias) in

the package? My understanding is that TDR resolution is on the order of 1-2

mm (after converting time to distance).

Matt

-----Original Message-----

From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com

[mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Dima Smolyansky

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 9:35 AM

To: si-list

Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D

Hello:

There is always, of course, the way of the TDR.

If the via is so long compared to system rise time that it needs to be

considered a distributed elements, TDR extracts the Z and Td quite nicely.

If it is necessary to compute L and C of the via separately, extending the

JEDEC publication JEP-123 from packages to other elements, one can do it, as

long as one is able to create appropriate test structures beforehand. R is a

separate issue, but R is typically a small number, millohm one hopes, is it

not? In that case, it is best measured with a DC meter, which can provide an

accurate value.

There are also TDR techniques for computing partial or loop inductance

values, depending which is required.

Thanks,

===================

Dima Smolyansky

TDA Systems, Inc.

11140 SW Barbur Blvd., Suite 100

Portland, OR 97219

(503) 246-2272

(503) 246-2282 (fax)

(503) 804-7171 (mobile)

http://www.tdasystems.com <http://www.tdasystems.com>

The Interconnect Modeling Company(TM)

----- Original Message -----

From: Hassan Ali <mailto:hali@nortelnetworks.com>

To: si-list <mailto:si-list@silab.eng.sun.com>

Sent: Monday, July 17, 2000 7:47 AM

Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : inductance extracted by ansoft SI3D

*> > 2.For a via through several power and ground planes, does the SI 3D
*

*> > consider the effects of those planes when doing the extraction?
*

*> >
*

*>
*

*> For this I believe you need a full wave solver such as their HFSS. Edge
*

*> rate (frequency content) & geometry really are the factors. If you edge
*

*> rate is slow compared to the geometry, then the complication of an
*

*> additional solver MAY not be necessary. But, since we MAY not know all
*

*> those rules of thumb & guidelines, take no chances & use a full wave
*

because

*> you probably do have edge rates which are "fast". Your investment in
*

*> understanding a refined full wave solver will be worth it.
*

As to the original question, AFAIK (as far as I know) Ansoft SI Q3D is NOT

capable of computing via parasitics in consideration to individual planes.

You see, SI Q3D considers the entire via structure comprising of the signal

traces connected to the via, the via barrel (the plating on the via hole),

and all the pads at different layers, as ONE conductor. ALL the ground

planes are considered connected hence they make ONE conductor. In that case,

the self L and R values computed for the via structure are for the ENTIRE

via structure as mentioned above (i.e. not just for the via barrel), and the

capacitance to ground is with reference to ALL the ground planes (i.e. you

don't get separate values for capacitance with reference to EACH individual

ground plane). That information is not very useful for critical SI analysis.

And unfortunately, I don't know of any software tool that can accurately

compute separate parasitics. Any suggestions?

To illustrate further the problem in question, suppose I want to include via

parasitics for a signal that goes from the top pcb layer to an inner signal

layer, then I need to include via parasitics of only that portion of the via

that gets into the path of my signal i.e. not the parasitics of the entire

via structure. Any body knows how to do that with the presently available

tools?

As to the capabilities of HFSS, I think many people make wrong assumptions

on how full-wave field solvers can help us (SI engineers). First of all HFSS

would NOT spit out via parasitics! Using your various signal traces as

"ports", HFSS can accurately compute scattering (S) parameter matrix for all

the ports. These S-parameters are computed for each propagation mode of

interest (e.g. TEM mode) and indeed takes into account the electromagnetic

(EM) field interactions of all the structures in the geometry of the problem

(e.g. for a via, all the conductors, power and ground planes).

That is well and good, but the problem is that you CANNOT (easily) separate

individual interactions in terms of R, L, and C parasitics. The only method

I know of is to find a lumped-element equivalent circuit (which may not be

unique) and use a microwave circuit simulator (like Touchstone, Libra, ADS,

MDS, Ensemble, SuperCompact, APLAC, etc.) to optimize the R, L, and C,

values to make the equivalent circuit have the same S-parameters as the

original 3D structure. This is a painful process and at best not accurate

and reliable. This is because, at high frequencies, all the parasitics are

distributed and therefore cannot (easily) have an accurate lumped-element

equivalent. Am I too much of a pessimist here? Any ideas of what works best?

Regards.

Hassan.

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