RE: [SI-LIST] : Upper limit of interplane capacitance

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From: George_Tang@Dell.com
Date: Thu Jun 15 2000 - 20:51:00 PDT


Erik,

I agree with you in most parts. But I believe thermal energy produces
radiation in the infrared
spectrum. The microwave excites electron resonance (or vibrational modes),
and infrared
light is radiated. Thermal/heat does account for part of the dielectric
loss.

Just my $0.02

George

-----Original Message-----
From: Daniel, Erik S. [mailto:Daniel.Erik@mayo.edu]
Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 9:37 AM
To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Upper limit of interplane capacitance

Larry-

I believe the absorbtion resonances are typically vibrational modes of the
molecules withing the dielectric medium which tend to be in the far
infrared, extending towards microwave frequencies. Typical frequencies
refered to on this list (e.g. a couple GHz) are still a ways down from the
center frequency of the resonances, but the "tails" of these resonances are
typically responsible for the rise of dielectric loss with frequency. The
resonances are definitely still quantum mechanical in nature, describing
quantized electronic states, and "photons" (quanta of E/M energy) are still
absorbed. I don't believe thermal/acoustic losses (i.e. phonon resonances)
are typically involved.

                                        - Erik

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Larry Smith [mailto:Larry.Smith@Eng.Sun.COM]
> Sent: Thursday, June 15, 2000 10:47 AM
> To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com; gedlund@us.ibm.com
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Upper limit of interplane capacitance
>
>
> Greg - it is a bit of a stretch, but if I go back to my Quantum
> Mechanics from years ago, I think the dielectric loss is more of
> a sonic phenenon than a photo electric effect. With the photo
> electric effect, a packet of energy is obsorbed that is exactly
> right to lift an electron from one energy state to another. When
> the electron falls back it emits a photon.
>
> With dielectric loss, molecules physicaly vibrate more like a
> sound wave. The losses show up as thermal rather than electromagnetic
> energy. But you are correct, dielectric loss is a material property.
>
> I'm sure somebody will tell me if this is completely off base...
>
> regards,
> Larry Smith
> Sun Microsystems
>
> > From: gedlund@us.ibm.com
> > X-Lotus-FromDomain: IBMUS
> > To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> > Date: Thu, 15 Jun 2000 09:23:26 -0500
> > Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : Upper limit of interplane capacitance
> > Mime-Version: 1.0
> > Content-Disposition: inline
> >
> > Larry and Erik,
> >
> > [Erik Daniel wrote]
> > > I agree with most of your comments on power plane
> capacitance, but I have
> > to
> > > disagree with one point -- dielectric loss does NOT decrease with
> > decreased
> > > thickness of the dielectric -- dielectric loss is
> independent of the
> > > dielectric thickness in particular, and all geometrical
> concerns in
> > general
> > > (unlike skin-effect loss).
> >
> > Someone once explained dielectric loss to me as absorption
> of the energy
> > in the E/M field by quantum resonances in the molecules
> that make up the
> > dielectric material. In my mind, I thought this sounded
> analogous to the
> > photoelectric effect, where you shine light of a particular
> frequency on
> > an atom and it gets absorbed if the frequency corresponds
> to one of its
> > quantum states. Is this truly the physical origin of
> dielectric loss?
> > If so, that would explain why it's strictly a material
> property and not
> > geometry-dependent...
> >
> > Greg Edlund
> > Advisory Engineer, Critical Net Analysis
> > IBM
> > 3605 Hwy. 52 N, Dept. HDC
> > Rochester, MN 55901
> > gedlund@us.ibm.com
> >
> >
> >
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