**From:** Tom Dagostino (*tom_dagostino@mentorg.com*)

**Date:** Tue May 30 2000 - 09:55:31 PDT

**Next message:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Previous message:**ARiazi: "Re: [SI-LIST] : Tco measurement point?"**In reply to:**Mike Saunders: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Next in thread:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Reply:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"

The equation for bandwidth .35/Tr = BW assumes a critically damped Guassian

response and 10% to 90% Tr times. Different filters (responses) will have

different constants. For example, if the response of the filter is a simple

RC filter the bandwidth will be .4545/Tr.

The bandwidth is defined as the point in frequency where the amplitude is

down 3 db. For the .35/Tr example, if the risetime is 350 psec then the

bandwidth is 1 GHz. If at low frequencies the output amplitude of the

filter is 1 volt then at 1 GHz the output amplitude will be .707V.

The output frequency spectrum of a square wave put into this "filter" will

be the ideal square wave spectrum convolved with the response of the filter.

Tom Dagostino

ICX Modeling Group

tom_dagostino@mentor.com

503-685-1613

-----Original Message-----

From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com

[mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Mike Saunders

Sent: Friday, May 26, 2000 11:11 AM

To: bma@anritsu.com; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com

Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane

Barry,

Dr. Johnson doesn't go into any real specifics regarding the limitations on

Fknee. As far as EMI is concerned, the text states "Fknee is no substitute

for full-blown Fourier analysis. It can't predict electromagnetic

emissions, whose properties depend on the detailed spectral behavior at

frequencies well above Fknee." My take on this statement is that according

to Fourier series expansion, a square wave consists of an infinite set of

discrete frequency components, the fundamental plus odd harmonics of

decreasing amplitude. For faster and faster Tr, a true square wave is

approached and the amplitudes of the odd harmonics increase. These can and

will radiate depending upon board geometries, impedance mismatches

(reflections) etc. The main jist of the use for Fknee seems to be in

determining whether a digital circuit (driver, transmission line, load, IC,

driver...) will pass a digital signal (practically) undistorted or not.

His statement does seem to contradict other EMI papers I've seen which call

out a similar definition to Fknee. The "logic bandwidth" as defined is

1/(pi*Tr) = 0.318/Tr, and is defined at the point where the slope changes

from

-20dB/decade to -40dB/decade. This is the bandwidth necessary to pass the

signal without degrading the edge rate, and is a little lower than

Johnson's 0.5/Tr. Maybe he's just trying to be extra careful.

Of course, EMI depends not only on the edge rate, but also on the clock

rate. Any conductor over 1/20 of its wavelength is considered to be an

antenna for EMI purposes. Using f = c/wavelength (c = 3*10^8 M/S), EMI @

300MHz can radiate from an antenna (trace) just 2" long. (For 1/20 *

wavelength = 2", 1 * wavelength ~ 1Meter.) Reducing the clock rate reduces

the beginning of the -20dB/decade slope, located at 1/(pi*T), and therefore

will also reduce emissions. 1/(pi*Tr) still occurs at the same place, but

the spectrum's amplitude will already be lower by that time when slower

clock rates are used.

Take this info as you will. I have the book so I wanted to answer the

question as to what the derivation of Fknee was.

--Mike

At 09:16 AM 5/26/2000 PDT, Barry Ma wrote:

*>Mike,
*

*>
*

*>Can you detail what you mentioned: "He also states that for EMI,
*

frequencies

*>well above Fknee ARE important and should not be ignored" at the end of
*

your

*>mail?
*

*>
*

*>Thanks.
*

*>Regards,
*

*>Barry Ma
*

*>bma@ANRITSU.com
*

*>---------- Original Text ----------
*

*>
*

*>From: "Mike Saunders" <mikesa@ia.nsc.com>, on 5/26/00 7:29 AM:
*

*>
*

*>Doug,
*

*>
*

*>Howard Johnson's book uses a D flip flop clocked at several nominal rates
*

*>as an example of a typical digital signal. The output merely toggles, with
*

*>10%-90% rise/fall times which are about 1% of the overall period. Then, he
*

*>shows a plot of the spectral power density of the output, based on
*

*>frequency components relative to the sample clock. In this plot, the
*

*>spectral power density rolls off at a rate of about -20dB/decade when
*

*>plotting signal amplitude (y) vs. frequency (x, log scale). However, by
*

*>the knee frequency, the spectrum is already at 6.8dB(V) below the straight
*

*>-20dB/decade slope. After this knee frequency, the slope rolls off
*

*>exponentially, indicating that since most of the energy is contained below
*

*>the knee frequency, the behavior of a circuit at frequencies above this
*

*>frequency will hardly affect digital performance. He also asserts that the
*

*>behavior of a circuit AT the knee frequency determines how well it can
*

*>handle a steep edge. Dr. Johnson does qualify Fknee, saying it can be used
*

*>as a quick way to relate the time domain to the frequency domain.
*

*>Therefore, it can be used as a quick rule of thumb to determine whether or
*

*>not particular frequencies should be taken into account. He also states
*

*>that for EMI, frequencies well above Fknee ARE important and should not be
*

*>ignored.
*

*>
*

*>
*

*>--Mike
*

*>
*

*>
*

*>At 03:35 PM 5/25/2000 -0700, you wrote:
*

*>>Hi Barry,
*

*>>
*

*>> I've seen the derivation for the BW = 0.35/tr(10% - 90%).
*

*>>
*

*>> I haven't seen the derivation for the BW = 0.5/tr
*

*>>
*

*>>- Doug
*

*>>
*

*>>Barry Ma wrote:
*

*>>>
*

*>>> Hi,
*

*>>>
*

*>>> There is another way to figure out what is the highest frequency we
*

*>might need to take care of:
*

*>>>
*

*>>> Howard Johnson call it Fknee = 0.5/Tr. Given Tr = 0.4 ns, We have Fknee
*

*>= 1.25 GHz.
*

*>>
*

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*>>
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*>>
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*>>
*

*>
*

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**Next message:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Previous message:**ARiazi: "Re: [SI-LIST] : Tco measurement point?"**In reply to:**Mike Saunders: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Next in thread:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"**Reply:**Doug Brooks: "RE: [SI-LIST] : RE: Split Plane"

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