RE: [SI-LIST] : Frequency dependence and all that jazz

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From: Shah, Nilesh N (nilesh.n.shah@intel.com)
Date: Wed Dec 22 1999 - 17:13:57 PST


Steve:
Thanks for your reply.
Actually, it's not so much the rlc's I'm worried about and building
a frequency dependent model.
My focus is more on the simulation itself.
I gather from your answer that if I have a simple inverter driving
into the rlc network , the output waveform of the inverter is just a
bunch of voltage versus time points. So if I had a frequency dependent
rlc network and I fed my inverter output to it, it's as good as having
a frequency independent model extracted at the fundamental frequency.

Thanks again for throwing some light.
BTW, I'd like to know more about your extraction tool.

Nilesh

Nilesh N Shah,
Package Electrical Design Engineer,
PCG, Folsom, CA.
Intel Corporation.
tel:916-356 1129.

-----Original Message-----
From: Steve Corey [mailto:steve@tdasystems.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 1999 4:04 PM
To: si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : Frequency dependence and all that jazz

Nilesh -- SPICE-like simulators doing time-domain analyses solve their
differential equations in the time domain, based on the charge/flux stored
in
capacitors/inductors and the derivatives of the voltage/current variables at
each node/branch. A time-domain simulator has no concept of frequency.

It is quite possible to get frequency dependence included in a model for a
time-domain simulator, since L's and C's are frequency-dependent
impedances/admittances and can be shown, when used in conjunction with R's
(and inductance coupling coeffficients) to accurately represent any
well-behaved
function if used in the correct topology and with the correct values.
However, for certain structures (e.g., long cables used at high frequencies)
a large
number of lumped elements is required to represent the delay.

A full wave solver is one of many approaches to getting a frequency
dependent model. Other approaches, such as 2-D solvers, may be quite
sufficient
without going to such great lengths -- you have to evaluate what
frequency-dependent effects you are trying to model. /* begin brazen
advertising */ We
offer a tool which extracts models from measured data and handles some
effects, such as non-uniform impedance and next-door coupling, quite well.
/* end
brazen advertising */ General full-wave modeling from measurement is on the
horizon, and is a current research topic in academia, but we do not offer it
at
this time.

Hope this helps,

  -- Steve

-------------------------------------------
Steven D. Corey, Ph.D.
Time Domain Analysis Systems, Inc.
"The Interconnect Modeling Company."
http://www.tdasystems.com

email: steve@tdasystems.com
phone/fax: (206) 417-3439
-------------------------------------------

"Shah, Nilesh N" wrote:

> Hi:
> I have a question:
> It's all well and fine to build frequency dependent MODELS,
> but what about the simulator(ex Hspice) itself?
> For example, if I feed the output of a simple inverter to an
> L,C, R network, (and I'm doing a simple time domain transient analysis)
>
> INVERTER------LRC NETWORK----OUTPUT
>
> does the simulator decompose the output waveform of the inverter
> into it's frequency components before feeding it into the LC network?(i
> don't think so)
> For example, if the output of my buffer looks like a repeating square
pulse
> running at 400Mhz 50% duty cycle with a finite rise time, does the LRC
> network "see"
> the input wave as
> Asin(w1t)+Bsin(w2t)+..... etc
> where w1=400Mhz and w2,w3 etc are the harmonics?Or does one have to
> explicitly
> take the output of the waveform, decompose it and then feed it
artificially
> to the LRC network?
>
> or does the LRC network "see" as it's input,a bunch of dc points for
> which the simulator solves the nodal matrix using difference or
differential
> equations? i.e. does the LRC network "see" only 1 frequency coming in
which
> is the fundamental?
>
> How does this work?How is the frequency content of the output waveform of
> the buffer conveyed to the LCR network?
> I was planning to investigate this but I thought some of
> you experts out there might have the answer at the top of your head...
>
> Also, tools like Ansoft Q3d extract models only at 1 frequency(I think),
so
> unless you use HFSS, how do you get a true frequency dependent model?
> I've generated R,L versus frequency and other parameter versus frequency
> curves, but this is with 2 d models using TEM assumptions.what about 3-d
> models?
> is ther ANY way at all except for using a full wave solver like HFSS to
> generate true frequency
> dependent models and simulate in the time domain?
>
> Thanks for your ideas in advance.
> Nilesh
>
>
> Nilesh N Shah,
> Package Electrical Design Engineer,
> PCG, Folsom, CA.
> Intel Corporation.
> tel:916-356 1129.
>
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