Ray,
No, you did not misconstrue Dmitri's comments.
Avanti! chose to change the propagation function for
Hspice 99.2. This was after Dmitri left.
In my own personal investigations of the w-element
behavior for digital pulse trains, 99.2 has significant
differences from 98.4.
For both, the RISETIME parameter must be set in
order to obtain consistent results with segmented
transmission lines. According to Dmitri:
"When you set.option RISETIME, I fit the frequency response
exactly up to 10/RISETIME, and after that the accuracy
will gradually decrease."
It is not clear what happens when the RISETIME is
not set, however a simple experiment with two
circuits, one with a .5 meter w-element and the other
with one hunderd 0.005 meter w-elements will show
significant differences in delay. In HSPICE 99.2 there
will also be significant differences in the attenuation.
regards,
scott
Ray Anderson wrote:
> Please correct me if I am wrong, but as I understand Dmitri's
> comments, the present implementation (99.2) of the W element is correct only
> for cylindrical conductors and not those of rectangular (or other arbritrary)
> cross section as are commonly used for interconnect purposes.
>
> This makes sense in that the Rs number derived by a field solver
> is geometry dependent (i.e. that portion contributed to by the proximity
> effect current crowding). The W element must make some assumptions on the
> geometry. Apparently, the assumption is that the conductor has a cylindrical
> cross section, however I feel even this leaves the proximity of the
> cyclindrical member to adjacent planes and adjacent conductors unaccounted
> for.
>
> So if we have a need to model a circuit comprised of non-
> cylindrical cross section conductors at relatively low frequencies
> as well as high (say a fast risetime pulse train with low rep rate)
> can the W element be used to obtain accurate simulation results?
>
> It seems to me that even though the mathematics of the
> W element are said to be correct, that the constraints imposed
> by the cross section assumption and neglect of the proximity
> effect current crowding render the element's accuracy to be
> dubious for real world applications.
>
> The above is not meant to be critical of the W element's
> developers or owners, but just an attempt to really understand
> the limitations of the implementation and to determine a region
> of validity for it's use.
>
> Does anyone have any comments and/or ideas on what might
> possibly be done (short of the vendor re-writing the W element code)
> to ameliorate the short comings such as predistorting the R values
> fed to the element or whatever ??? There are a limited number of
> "knobs" to turn to effect the W elements behavior so this may be
> a challenging problem. It kind of seems that any 'predistortion'
> of the R values to accound for different cross sections and proximity
> consideration would probably be valid a some spot frequency at
> best, and would not be a true broadband solution.
>
> As I prefaced my comments/questions, if I misconstrued
> Dmitri's comments, please correct me.
>
>
> Ray Anderson
>
> Sun Microsystems Inc.
>
> >
> > I agree with Richard, the really important factor is accuracy of Rs and
> > Gd values. As they are multiplied by frequency, a small error makes a
> > huge difference. But for a given Rs and Gd, my algorithm in W element
> > will give you mathematically accurate answer.
> >
> > I would like to comment on the Sqrt(f)*(1+j)*Rs skin-effect equation
> > introduced in Hspice 99.2. It has mathematically correct imaginary
> > part, and does not require frequency-response correction. But this
> > equation is only valid for cylindrical conductors and only at higher
> > frequencies.
> >
> > This skin-effect equation produces the corresponding inductive component
> > Ls(f)=Rs/(2*Pi*Sqrt(f)). Thus, the inductance becomes infinite at dc.
> > This substantially alters the waveforms especially when Rs is large.
> >
> > This was the reason I used Rs*Sqrt(f) in W element. This equation gives
> > asymptotically correct loss, and I was restoring the correct imaginary
> > part for any, not just cylindrical, configuration by applying
> > frequency-response correction.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Dmitri Kuznetsov
> >
> > =======================================================
> > Dmitri Kuznetsov, Ph.D.
> > Principal Engineer
> >
> > ViewLogic Systems, Inc. e-mail: [email protected]
> > 1369 Del Norte Rd. Tel: (805)278-6824
> > Camarillo, CA 93010 Fax: (805)988-8259
> > =======================================================
> >
> >
> > "Mellitz, Richard" wrote:
> > >
> > > Apparently the W element model uses a pseudo-propagation function with the
> > > following form.
> > >
> > > P(f)= exp{-sqrt[ (G0+f*Gd+j*2*pi*f*C)*(R0+sqrt(f)(1+j)Rs+j*2*pi*f*L) ]*len }
> > >
> > > (From HSPICE application note "Boosting Accuracy of W Element
> > > for Transmission Lines with Nonzero Rs or Gd Values")
> > >
> > > Let's assume that this is valid for some conditions. It would be nice to
> > > know what the assumptions are.(geometry, frequency, etc.) We can talk about
> > > the validity of the above in another thread.
> > >
> > > I would like to make a proposal. I would like to know what various field
> > > solvers report in regards to the above propagation function. Let's start
> > > with a microstrip first (and only look at skin effect). The geometry
> > > follows.
> > >
> > > Height over ground: 0.004"
> > > Width of conductor: 0.006"
> > > Thickness of conductor: 0.001"
> > >
> > > Conductivity: 0.58E8 mho/meter
> > >
> > > Let's all use the same units for Rs. Say:
> > > Ohms/(sqrt(Hz)*meter)
> > >
> > > Now, A colleague of mine has supplied a formula that is used in microwave
> > > design. I have attached a PDF file with details. (Too tough for text, TTFT
> > > :-)), I remember foobar)
> > >
> > > The answer, using the closed form formula for Rs is:
> > > 1.806E-03 ohms/(sqrt(Hz)*meter)
> > >
> > > If this is the magnitude of complex Rs, then Re(Rs) would be
> > > 1.277E-03 ohms/(sqrt(Hz)*meter)
> > >
> > > I have received sidebar results from some of you folks, but I don't want to
> > > post other people answers. However I will compile a table of posted
> > > results. There are issues of complex number involved. Remember I'm looking
> > > for the Rs for the above propagation formula.
> > >
> > > Step 2 will be to do same for a strip line geometry where:
> > >
> > > Height over ground: 0.005"
> > > Width of conductor: 0.0025"
> > > Thickness of conductor: 0.0005"
> > > Distance between ground planes: 0.0105
> > >
> > > It would be appreciated if we could find out what "tricks" people are using
> > > to get Rs from their field solvers.
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > > Richard Mellitz
> > > Intel
> > >
> > > <<Mathcad - ms_loss_eq.pdf>>
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > Name: Mathcad - ms_loss_eq.pdf
> > > Mathcad - ms_loss_eq.pdf Type: Acrobat (application/pdf)
> > > Encoding: base64
> >
> > **** To unsubscribe from si-list: send e-mail to [email protected].
> In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE si-list, for more help, put HELP.
> si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/si-list ****
> >
>
> **** To unsubscribe from si-list: send e-mail to [email protected]. In the BODY of message put: UNSUBSCRIBE si-list, for more help, put HELP. si-list archives are accessible at http://www.qsl.net/wb6tpu/si-list ****
-- Scott McMorrow Principal Engineer SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering 18735 SW Boones Ferry Road Tualatin, OR 97062-3090 (503) 885-1231 http://www.siqual.com
--------------CD4EF9D079304010FCBC1884 Content-Type: text/x-vcard; charset=us-ascii; name="scott.vcf" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: Card for Scott McMorrow Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="scott.vcf"
begin:vcard n:McMorrow;Scott tel;work:503-708-4320 x-mozilla-html:FALSE url:www.siqual.com org:SiQual, Signal Quality Engineering adr:;;18735 SW Boones Ferry Road;Tualatin ;OR;97062-3090;USA version:2.1 email;internet:[email protected] title:Principal Engineer note:asdfsdaf fn:Scott McMorrow end:vcard
--------------CD4EF9D079304010FCBC1884--