Re: [SI-LIST] : SpecctraQuest v Hyperlynx

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From: David Instone (david_instone@uk.xyratex.com)
Date: Mon May 21 2001 - 05:19:07 PDT


All,
   Yes I am able to determine when an email comes from a vendor, and
personally I didn't find it any more of an ad than I would have
expected. I am a little surprised than his is the only vendors email,
public or private.
I found Ken's comments on what was missing in SpecctraQuest
enlightening.

So far I have had 2 emails from users on my original question, Kens
comments and the rest of this thread has been on whether Carlos should
have posted as he did. I am no further enlightened than I was a week
ago!
Dave

Ken Cantrell wrote:
>
> All,
> In an attempt not to start another flame war, but to respond to Carlos, Jim,
> Todd, and Pat....
> Carlos,
> You gave a HUGE sales pitch for your product, in my opinion. The other
> vendors could have ripped you apart, which they didn't, and I applaud them
> for their restraint. Perhaps next time I will let it go, and then you can
> get the barrage of e-mail from them instead of one from me. I didn't have a
> "bad" salesman just leave my office, or anything else. That is a logically
> weak argument used by someone who has nothing valid to support their claims.
> And you can't sidestep the issues that I pointed out. Those are all
> weakness of your product. I could list weakness of all the major vendors'
> products, but refrain from doing so until someone pops up with "my product
> is the be all and end all"...which is b.s. as we all know (except for
> engineers new to the field). You put your opinions on the list, you take
> your chances...just like me or anyone else.
> Preacher Jim,
> I don't hold vendors' representatives to a higher standard, just an equal
> standard. Remember the recent H. Johnson debacle? The list looked like a
> shark pool. People were coming out of the wood works to take a shot at the
> king. But for the most part it was a necessary clarification. Why should
> I, or anyone, hold a vendor representative less accountable with regard to
> accuracy than H.J.? He pretty much started this whole thing (generalizing
> now, I know who all of the first researchers were), and we ripped him apart
> in the name of science. No kids gloves there. I think that it is
> inapproriate when a posting diverges from data, to opinion, to sales pitch,
> especially to someone new to the discipline. That's my opinion, and the
> last I remember, I'm entitled to an opinion also. My intent was to clarify
> for David I. that he needed to research the vendors' offerings, and that
> Cadence might not be the best choice for his application. All that glitters
> is not gold. My concern is for the SI engineer, and not the vendors. I am
> neither for nor against the vendors. I am impartial. Can you say the same?
> The one that makes the best tool set for my application, and has the best
> correspondence to emprical data is the one that I choose to use. You will
> also note that due to my last round with one of the vendors, their replies
> have been data points and not sales campaigns. Keep that in mind. End of
> sermon.
> Todd,(thanks for an actual question)
> No. I mean on the interconnects. You have to use a 3-D solver to model the
> pins and cabling. Otherwise you put in your best guess from the vendor data
> or perform measurements, and use those values. The last time I checked,
> SpectraQuest didn't have that capability. If you have updated data, I would
> appreciate receiving it.
> Pat,
> You have a good point; overstated to make your point. I just went from
> somone expressing what I think is a valid opinion, to someone who is
> suppressing knowledge. That's a pretty big step. So perhaps, Patrick, you
> also overstated your position. It's not suppressing knowledge, it's having
> the posting contain some knowledge to be transferred. As I remember, you
> went through a round or two over the plane bridging/frequency independance
> of capacitor selection. You took some hits, but we all learned something on
> that one. No big deal. Part of the learning process. I guess we differ on
> this current issue as to whether or not there was any content in the
> message, and whether or not we hold vendor representatives to the same
> standard that we hold ourselves to.
>
> For everyone's information, I have received several e-mails in support of my
> position. There were a number of people who found Carlos's e-mail too far
> from fact, and very much Cadence biased. I still feel that this is not a
> sales forum, and will express my opinion when such instances occur, knowing
> that there will be other and opposite opinions. That's what the list is
> about. I hope that David finds the discussion illuminating rather than
> confusing, which was my intent.
> Ken
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Carlos Moll [mailto:cmoll@cadence.com]
> Sent: Tuesday, May 15, 2001 8:25 AM
> To: Ken Cantrell; Carlos Moll; David Instone; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> Subject: RE: [SI-LIST] : SpecctraQuest v Hyperlynx
>
> Ken:
>
> It looks like you may had a bad experience with one of your tool
> vendors!!... My inputs to any thread in the SI list are basically
> unbiased. I am a not a sales person and by know means promote the sales of
> our solution on this list.
>
> If you are unhappy at my post, then you should address this to me
> personally and not to the entire SI list. As tool vendors we are out
> there to help you and everyone else, and I/we certainly get useful data as
> what direction and technology enhancements we need to incorporate into our
> tools or what typical problems are warranting attention from users such as
> yourself or the folks of the SI list.
>
> You will get biased opinions from the users on this list as to which tool
> vendor works best, and that's great. However, I encourage that any
> negative comments or problems that are associated with your tool vendor are
> addressed to the tool vendor or your support person directly, not the SI
> list.
>
> Any comments you can email me directly and I will send you my phone number
> and discuss any technical issues or just to answer all of you questions.
>
> Carlos Moll
> Cadence Design Systems
>
> At 04:19 PM 5/14/2001 -0600, Ken Cantrell wrote:
> >Carlos,
> >Do you have 3D-solvers yet? Or are still having the SI engineer put in
> >"typical" values on the interconnects? How about common and differential
> >mode emissions? Last I heard from one of your hitters on the east coast
> was
> >that you only had differential? Has that changed?
> >Have you ever used HyperLynx? If you haven't, you don't have the right to
> >comment on HyperLynx, or XTK, or XNS, or any vendor's software that you
> >haven't personally done a board with.
> >Please respond off-line from the SI list as I don't think I could take
> >another "unbiased point of view" from you on the list.
> >David,
> >Beware of salesmen bearing gifts. Cadence makes as good a package as any,
> >and better than most, but that has little bearing on what you need for your
> >application. You need to pick one or more from the many qualified
> >simulation vendors. The list is long, the competition is, for lack of a
> >better word, brutal. So take the promises with a grain of salt, review the
> >packages yourself, and pick the one that best suites your needs.
> >Ken
> >
> >-----Original Message-----
> >From: owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> >[mailto:owner-si-list@silab.eng.sun.com]On Behalf Of Carlos Moll
> >Sent: Friday, May 11, 2001 7:20 AM
> >To: David Instone; si-list@silab.eng.sun.com
> >Subject: Re: [SI-LIST] : SpecctraQuest v Hyperlynx
> >
> >
> >David:
> >
> > From a non-biased point of view...
> >
> >If you were to compare your requirements related to bit pattern error
> >detection or ISI, comprehensive waveform editing capabilities, differential
> >support, coupling of connectors/package ball I/O's, mutli board and package
> >to board ,etc. system level simulations , then you should at a minimum be
> >looking at a comparison between SpecctraQuest and XTK, not Hyperlynx.
> >
> > From a biased point of view...
> >
> >If you use Capture and Allegro as your standardized flow, then the
> >SpecctraQuest integration to your flow will provide you with the most
> >powerful and comprehensive SI solution!!
> >
> >If you need me to further elaborate on such differentiations and why , then
> >you can email me directly at cmoll@cadence.com.
> >
> >Carlos Moll
> >Cadence Design Systems
> >
> >
> > At 10:15 AM 5/11/2001 +0100, David Instone wrote:
> >Dear Group,
> > In addition to all the 'normal' things the above are used for, given
> >the need to simulate differential pcb traces and the connectors,drivers
> >and receivers associated with them at rates upto 4 gigabaud, which of
> >the above would you prefer to use?
> >
> >I also want to be able to display the resulting eye pattern and/or
> >calculated the resulting DJ from Inter Symbol Interference (ISI).
> >Naturally I would want to be able to read in board designs (we use
> >Cadence/allegro for pcb layout and Orcad for schematics) and it would
> >be nice if it would run 'stand alone' on a Labtop while on-the-road.
> >
> >--
> >Regards
> >
> >Dave Instone. Compliance Engineer
> > Storage Systems Development, MP24/22
> > Xyratex, Langstone Rd., Havant, Hampshire, P09 1SA, UK.
> >Tel: +44 (0)23-92-496862 (direct line)
> >Fax: +44 (0)23-92-496014
> >http://www.xyratex.com Tel: +44 (0)23-92-496000
> >
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-- 
Regards

Dave Instone. Compliance Engineer Storage Systems Development, MP24/22 Xyratex, Langstone Rd., Havant, Hampshire, P09 1SA, UK. Tel: +44 (0)23-92-496862 (direct line) Fax: +44 (0)23-92-496014 http://www.xyratex.com Tel: +44 (0)23-92-496000

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