follow up to the NRI article: ramjee swaminathan

Document: ramjee / follow_up_to_nri_article.html

>>> follow up to the NRI article...

>>> <= a long letter to an NRI...

In response to my article at return2india.com, there were some online and offline discussions and I have provided a copy of the online stuff here. This is a mere replication for the material. I feel that this would provide at least a semblance of continuity and elaboration for/of some of the points mentioned in the original article.. I feel bad that the re-formatting of the text is kind of botched up, but then that can wait, I hope!

__ramjee.


This can be found at http://www.return2india.com/HyperNews/get.cgi/forums/articles/39.html.

***

1.  Message to author by Kannan Adityan, 1999, Oct 07 
2.  Scathin attack, but juicy! by Kannan Adityan, 1999, Oct 11 
	1.  Hmmm... by Ramjee Swaminathan, 1999, Oct 12 
		1.  Kannan's rejoinder by Ramjee Swaminathan, 1999, Oct 14 
			1.  ... of +ve choices... by Ramjee Swaminathan, 1999, Oct 14 
2.  Untitled by Ralph Bourgese, 2000, Jan 11 
3.  So the actions remain the same by [email protected], 1999, Oct 22 
	1.  Tabula rasa? by Ramjee Swaminathan, 1999, Nov 11 
4.  Do you really support caste system ? by Shyamal Pain, 1999, Oct 29 
	1.  Am curious... by Ramjee Swaminathan, 1999, Nov 11 
		1.  re: am curious by Shyamal Pain, 1999, Nov 16 
			1.  Really? by Nagaraj Katti, 2000, Feb 12 
			2.  99% Vs 1% by Ramjee Swaminathan, 2000, Feb 18 
	2.  for mr pain by [email protected], 2000, Feb 28 
		1.  Untitled by Shyamal Pain, 2000, Mar 01 
5.  Untitled by [email protected], 2000, Feb 28 
6.  well said ram !! kudos by Mukundan Srinivasan, 2000, Mar 01 
7.  My comments on this article by Observer, 2000, Mar 03 

***


Message to author
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 1999, Oct 07 
From: Kannan Adityan kadityan 

This message is for the author Ramjee Swaminathan. 
Are you from Thanjavur? Do you have a brother called Balaji. 
If so send me an email. If not just ignore this message. 

Cheers 

***


Scathin attack, but juicy! 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 

Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 1999, Oct 11 
From: Kannan Adityan kadityan

If this letter has been written to someone who has been in a quandary about R2I and simply asked for your opinion, I am sure he would have been better off taking your advise in page 2. Stop there and send the email to the recycle bin. I cannot see this letter being a stimulus for someone wishing genuinely to R2I.

If this is meant to attack the ego of NRI stereotypes, you have more than made a chink in their armour. The letter touches the basic of the NRIs value system and would therefore be seen as full of jealous overtones from a disgruntled returnee.

Being a looong article, the message is somewhat lost in the delivery. I suggest you write a concise one.

I do agree with a lot of what you said and it has been very interesting to read! However if you hoped to see some change in the heart & souls of NRIs as a result of this spleen-venting you may have achieved very little.

*** 

Hmmm... 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Scathin attack, but juicy! (Kannan Adityan)
Date: 1999, Oct 12 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]> 

I don't want to be politically correct. There
is absolutely no point in indulging in niceties
and polite gibberish and offtangent comments.
Guess that explains the "scathing attack!" :-)

And, I don't want to "influence" anyone to get
back to indusland or see some "change in the
hearts and souls" - It is for the NRIs to 
decide which course is best for them. All
I wanted was, to make people think, frown and
ruminate. It is NOT right - for either me
or the NRIs - to fool ourselves with wrong
bits of information and completely fasified
set of notions. As I have repeatedly said,
we should look for reasons *within* us, always. 

Normally what we would do, if we don't get
thru a competitive exam? In most of the cases
we end up rubbishing the entire system, calling
it "phoney" and stuff. We dont want to see the
reality. Unless we grapple with reality in all
its vibgyorish schema, we will never "grow"
up. Same is the case with most of the NRIs; they
only see the stereotyped message that "India"
conveys and in these cocoons of comfort zones, they
lose their identity of unique selves. "The path
of least resistance" may be an easy way to take,
but - it is the path taken by herds, with no
individual identities. 

It is important for everyone of us to be peaceful 
with *ourselves* and to have no feelings of
guilt. Then, whether one stays in US or India, it
does not really matter, what do you think?

And thanks for the feedback.

R.

***

Kannan's rejoinder 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Scathin attack, but juicy! (Kannan Adityan)
Re:  Hmmm... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Date: 1999, Oct 14 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]> 

(posted with permission from Kannan)
I admire people like yourselves who have a firm hold on your
mind and may be lucky to be in a situation to choose 
whatever may seem right to you. Many others are simply not so 
gifted or lucky enough to be in such a position (including 
me) and wander around sites like R2I for genuine reasons to 
choose where we should be. You might even say that for some 
it could be the mid life crisis. These people are looking for 
solutions, not criticisms. 

By the way not all NRIs think alike and not all left India 
for the same reason. So you cannot stereotype NRIs. I am of 
the opinion that this site would NOT be visited by the NRIs 
who have made up their mind to settle wherever they live and 
those whose objectives are well known to you and me. 

If you had written this article in a different site, I 
wouldn't have minded it one bit. It is not the contents I 
object to, just the place. 

That is why R2I should be a place for constructive criticism,
 comments, advic(s)e, etc and not a place for opinions that 
might cause hurt to many. 

Woulk like to hear your views. 

Cheers 

Kannan 

***

... of +ve choices... 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Scathin attack, but juicy! (Kannan Adityan)
Re:  Hmmm... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Re:  Kannan's rejoinder (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Date: 1999, Oct 14 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]> 

Dear Kannan:

You have every right to your opinion, flame or otherwise. And I am not driven by the opinions of others alone...

So, whether you liked the content or whether the article hurt the feelings of others - it all depends on the way the texts and sub texts are interpreted. I have given my thoughts a shape - a vitriolic one, as you feel - driven by the daemons in my mindscape...

And noone should look for instant solutions - I consider this packaging of solutions into deals as a typical mentality of a fragile soul. If one takes umbrage at so called criticism, then he/she is not really mature enough to see as to what is meant by "taking complete responsibility for our actions." It is all very easy to say that some guys are lucky but *us* poor souls are not... The crutches are everywhere and it takes an effort, not to use those. But, it is only by the +ve non-use of crutches, that one can really grow...

... I personally know of many guys who were not at all *lucky* but who were able to make positive choices and marched ahead, as dictated by their own needs and conscience...

Can we take the discussion to the realm of r2i - if you don't mind?

Warm regards: 

Ramjee. 

***


Untitled 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Scathin attack, but juicy! (Kannan Adityan)
Re:  Hmmm... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Date: 2000, Jan 11 
From: Ralph Bourgese brain_fade

A very well written 'article' if I may call it that. I don't know whether I 'qualify' as an NRI (as used in this article) but I must say I agree with pretty much everything that is stated here. A crucial difference perhaps with the rest of the folks may be that unlike a lot of the other folks, I came here straight after high school.

The main reason for me was not the $ factor. I came here because I wanted to(for reasons so bizarre that I will not state them here).

Well after doing my undergrad in a mundane subject like Bio went on to work as a programmer(how ironical) and have been working as one for the past 2 years and am also doing my MS in Info Tech. The ideas was is and will be to go back to India. I have always been told that I would change my mind after staying here for a couple of years but really I am still as eager to go back as I was then. So why I am I waiting. Because fortunately, the head rules the heart. When the opportunities are there I will go back. I have not applied for a GC neither am I going to. and I don't expect any 'special' treatment like a lot of 'howlies' who are here expect.


***


So the actions remain the same 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 1999, Oct 22 
From: <[email protected]> 

Hi Ramjee,

So as we have seen what you can also do? Critisise or opinionize. Can we consolidate, what we have, selectively delete the past and build a bench marked future? No need to analyse.

Let us join hands and do it( anything from money contribution to physical work) now.


Regards Jai Shankar 

***


Tabula rasa? 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  So the actions remain the same 
Date: 1999, Nov 11 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]>

I don't believe in denials - nor should anyone else.
Pray ask, how can we delete the past? Our civilizations and mindsets are like palimpsests and we seek to build on these basements - filtering our thoughts thru a set of our 'available knowledge'.
And then again how do we build a 'bench marked future'? What kind of a benchmark that we are looking at? Will it be totally new - divorced from reality or will it based on a sense of basic continuum that permeates the growth of us and our civilizations. I mean 'growth' in the sense of being closer to our environment and our hearts.
Dear Jai Shankar, we *need* to analyze, be not overwhelmed by the results of such analyses and move towards the inner recesses of our mindscapes. IMHO, there are no shortcuts to growth. We *need* to criticize, we *need* to be opinionated - Unless we have a basic set of notions as a starting point, we will not go anywhere. The thing is that we should be aware that our opinions and criticisms are open to even *topsy turvy* revisions.
Do you honestly think that we can start off with a clean slate with respect to anything?
And again, what do you mean by 'joining hands' etc? Any concrete programs? Am interested in your views on this.


R. 

***


Do you really support caste system ? 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 1999, Oct 29 
From: Shyamal Pain <[email protected]>

I read Ramjee's account . It was interesting . What I find disgusting is his apparent support of the caste system .

May be his experience is different from me. I grew up in Bengal where the effects of caste system are minimal. One has friends irrespective of their castes. The effect of reservation of jobs is , I think, less in Bengal than in the south.

However, in Calcutta I have come across another caste which can be called the Other Schedule Caste(osc). They always have cushy jobs reserved for them. They are the relatives of friends of the vice presidents or managing directors of private companies. Sometimes jobs are created for him because his father occasionally shares a drink with the VP. These people get jobs based on "connection" and not merit. In contrast, many goverment jobs are awarded based on result of competetive exam and I consider these jobs as very fairly awarded. The system of awarding jobs based on "connection" seems to derive from a rural mindset where whom you know matters more than what you can do.


Shyamal Pain 

***


Am curious... 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Date: 1999, Nov 11 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]>

There are various theories of social stratification and our varna system is only one of the models. Like all models, it is also an ideal type.

In practical details, it has a lots of elements of stagnation just as any other model. But this is no justification for the existence of stagnant elements. We have to work towards the ideal model. The onus is on us. As I have detailed in my original posting I have tried to make clear why I am supportive of the varna - not *caste* system. I dont believe in 'equal opportunities' which is a myth created to sustain the existing exploitative systems. But I *do* believe in the basic concept of 'equality of status' - only from which an equitable society can emerge.

By the same token of 'opportunity' - I also don't believe in the myth of 'meritocracy.'

How can you say that the 'effect' (I guess that you mean the negatives here) of 'caste system' in Bengal are minimal - have you any concrete study or recourse to information? My basic understanding of the Indian sociology tells me otherwise. May be I am wrong - I am willing to be corrected.

I see that you are bothered about the 'reverse discriminations'. But, I am not.

I also see that our societies are in a major flux - with 'self help group' orientations of social groups degenerating into nepotism. I think these aberrations will be there as part of the 'churnings' - am not justifying them, though.

Actually I like the 'rural mindset' - whatever negativism you impute to this idea. You assume that inherently the urban milieu is better and are dismissive of the 'rural mindset' - You mean anything 'rural' is inherently 'backward'?

When you talk about 'connections' don't you think we must also include also the *opportunities thrown open to us by virtue of the social / economic positions held by us* ?? I think the answer is yes - and so we are also using our 'connections' - with all the negative connotations that you impute to the word.

And do you look at 'cushy jobs' as a pinnacle of glory that one can reach?
Shyamal, am very curious.


R.

***


re: am curious 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Re:  Am curious... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Date: 1999, Nov 16 
From: Shyamal Pain <[email protected]>

You said you do not believe in " meritocracy". But that is the best, fair and unbiased way of selecting people to fill job positions.

As I said before , if job seekers are chosen by "connection" that contributes to nepotism. We all know nepotism is bad. The reason why it is bad is that it does not allow the recruitment of the most competent people and harms the "free market" way of selecting people. Nepotism is a kind of social engineering that is anti- free market. While free market approach may not be useful in every aspect of life ( e.g. primary education and primary healthcare) , it is the best approach in most other arenas. Of course you can dispute that.

I do not know what you mean by "equality of status".

I do not understand how you can associate "connection" with "social/economic positions held by us ". If I am a V.P of a company and am looking for a job I will expect to get a job based on experience and not connections. I will not be hired because I hold some social position in some club. If a company uses those criteria to hire people it is doomed from the beginning.

When I said "rural mindset" I was trying to find a reason why people use "connection" in India. I did not attach any value judgement.

Finally "cushy jobs" may not be pinnacle of glory, but most people I know have studied primarily to get a good job. Most people who work hard at work, also do it so that they can reach a better position with better pay. Whether you like it or not, money is the primary motivation to work for 99% of people.


Shyamal 

***


Really? 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Re:  Am curious... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Re:  re: am curious (Shyamal Pain)
Date: 2000, Feb 12 
From: Nagaraj Katti <[email protected]>

I am not necessarily supporting Nepotism but tell me something.

Do you really believe that every task that is done for any purpose at all should only be done by the very best for that particular job? and BTW, who exactly sets the standards for such a task? If a task that is done by one person is radically different from another, who is right?

My point is that, a lot of jobs do not really need the very best to do it, and there are definitely many different ways to skin a cat, (If skinning the cat is a task that is enjoyed/required my many!) and there is not necessarily "A preferred" way and can be done by anyone without affecting the eventual outcome. Given that, I do not know whether or not, we should be hung up about giving the job by any other criterion than the "very best" for the job. In that light, obviously I might choose one of my kin to do that job, since I am not afraid of botching the results, and I might as well reward someone I like for any number of reasons.


***


99% Vs 1% 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Re:  Am curious... (Ramjee Swaminathan)
Re:  re: am curious (Shyamal Pain)
Date: 2000, Feb 18 
From: Ramjee Swaminathan <[email protected]> 

Shyamal - I apologise for taking this long to reply...

"Free market" is based on the neo-classical philosophy and
framework of perfectly competitive markets in which the 
resources are optimally allocated by the normal operation of 
market forces, with both buyers and sellers reaping economic
gains... But the implementation of this 'free' thingie 
ideology has always been at odds with its high *theoretical* 
principles... We, along with the colonial regime have 
destroyed the existing patterns of answering need in our
traditional cultures and have installed a brutal caricature of 
the western freemarket dogmas and are calling it a civilizing 
mission... The thing is that as long as the basic requirements 
of a position or a role are met - it is okay to have a known 
person deployed in the position... Just because, one happens 
to a relative and falls in the category of 'people helping one 
another to solve things' let us not call it nepotism...

Unlike the western mode, wherein (generally) the people
who live in a community wouldn't know their neighbours from
strangers, our tradition has been one of concentric circles
with the family and close relatives forming the innermost
circles. However, due to social churnings that have taken 
place, there are some problems... How can we solve these
anomalies unless we take cognizance of how we were earlier
and as to what are the social factors that are contributing to
the profanization of the ideal type?

Why are we rediscovering the virtues of Panchayaths and 
co-operativism in terms of self_help_groups - the latter
(unfortunately)spawned by foreign funded NGOs??

Regarding the exceptions that you have thoughtfully made viz,
primary healthcare and education etc - Why don't you please 
read "The hungry spirit" by charles handy?

Meritocracy - is another vainglorious nightmare which talks in
glowing terms about basic intelligence as distilled out in the
ability of aspirants to swallow truckloads of tomes and to
regurgitate them in appropriate fora etc... It also deals with
the ability of the guys to be conformists to an existing
order... So, if the existing order is exploitative, there is
no meritocracy - only kakistocracy!

Equality of status: We can very confidently and proudly state
that everyone of our citizenry have an equal opportunity to
go to, say, IITs... But do you think everyone can do it?? Do
you think - given a hyperintelligent kid from a family of
jhum cultivators and an equally smart kid from an urban 
elite family (they may even belong to the same caste etc) - 
the cultivator kid can make it??? What about thinking in
terms of an equality of status which will be a basic enabler??

And almost eveyone uses a vague 'old boy's network' to
get connections and exploit opportunities... Hmmm, as long
as the minimal requirements of a job description are met,
any reasonable arrangement within the concentric circles
should be okay... of course, I dont agree with the rot
that started off with Nehru anointing Indira as a great
leader etc... There are always bad examples for nepotism and 
good examples for self_help_groups - but let us look at our 
own cultural moorings and arrive at reasonable conclusions 
instead of forever looking forward to receiving a helping hand 
(by way of funds, philosophies, ideas and constructs) from our 
occidental friends... :-) 

I feel that most people do strive hard to gain recognition
in some sphere of life so that there is a glowing sense of
self esteem in them... but unfortunately, they see the the 
money--higher_position_in_hierarchy--status as the *only*
route - this is especially true of the urban elite and 
other associated lumpen classes... 

I am probably not interested in them though can confidently
say that I am bugged by them...

I am thrilled more by the likes of Dharampals, Uzrammas,
Richarias, CVSs, Amtes and Medhas... Leave alone good ol' 
Bapuji... Believe me - the 1% that you haven't considered is
very much more colorful and vibrant than the sombre office
clothings and denim jeans of the 99%.

I apologise once again for the undue delay.

Respectfully:

Ramjee.

***


for mr pain 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Date: 2000, Feb 28 
From: <[email protected]>

dear mr pain please read the article crtically before putting these stupid questions....
and pls don't be in denial caste is REALITY...known as lot of other words in different cultures....


***


Untitled 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Re:  Do you really support caste system ? (Shyamal Pain)
Re:  for mr pain 
Date: 2000, Mar 01 
From: Shyamal Pain <[email protected]> 

Mr. Manu datta

I am not sure which one you are calling "stupid question". I raised a point about caste system. It is unfortunate that this system persists in India. Just because it is a reality it does not mean it has to be followed. " Sati" ( burning of wife) was a reality when Rammohan Roy protested it and influenced the government to pass law against it. The fact that blacks did not have voting right in the USA was a reality until mid 1960.But Martin Luthar King fought the reality and brought about change. We should not push our head in the sand like ostriches and bring up the excuse of reality. We should try to change the reality for a better India. And critising an evil like caste system is a first step.


Shyamal Pain 

***


Untitled 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 2000, Feb 28 
From: <[email protected]>

right on dude..couldn't agree with you any more....the best article i have read among the other articles..
class above from those crappy touchy-feely stuff....from other morons....


***

well said ram !! kudos 
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 2000, Mar 01 
From: Mukundan Srinivasan <[email protected]>

It was a nice article, it sums up the generic problems faced by all the desis, especially in the u.s. I guess the highlight is the reasons people ascribe to go to u.s. someone's third cousin is in u.s , so he has to go to u.s...:-(

There is another interesting thing that is happening is people returning to india from the u.s are kind of looked with suspicion and also laughed at by people who don't know anything about u.s. The amazing thing is the cross section of desis i have met here in the u.s, all crib about life in the u.s and yearn for the life back home, but still when it comes to making a decision to go back, develop cold feet.

I have always rated success in india far higher than the success in u.s, well to be frank and honest, i too cribbed about lack of opportunities in india but never had the guts to create opportunities.

Probably the one aspect of life that we indians need to take from the u.s is the ability to think big and act on it. well it is for the few induvidual souls who can leave the currency conversion mentality behind and start doing something for our india, with the hard earned dollars (nothing comes easy in life).

The big push factor from u.s, as i see it, is the conscience of the induvidual, i feel if someone has decided to go back based on that, then the rest is all fine. no more cribbing about lack of opportunities, filth and dirt...etc etc. come to the reality folks you lived probably one third of your life (assuming an average life expectancy of 75 yrs) in india, so what is wrong now??? The reason could be the fact that anybody going back maybe laughed by the urban elite and that is the major issue facing many folks returning to india.

The very fact that there is a site for returning to india suggests that many people are interested and trying to go back to india, which is good for india.. :-)

Live life for yourself not for others


***

My comments on this article  
Forum: Returning to India - [Comments on Articles] 
Re:  A long letter to an NRI - By Ramjee (Admin)
Date: 2000, Mar 03 
From: Observer observer

Hi, this was a mail I sent to Ramjee. I dont even know if its totally relevant to Ramjee's article - it was just a spontaneous knee jerk reaction.
Thought Id post it here for whatever its worth:

Your article in return2india made a very interesting read, indeed ! ---------- start -----------

Just to add the first few drops of fuel to the fire, Ill take another "compliance" interpretation of GBS' quote at the end of your article.

"People are always blaming their circumstances for what they are. I don't believe in circumstances. The people who get on in the world are the people who get up and look for the circumstances they want and if they can't find them, make them."

Atul starts working in India. He doesnt like the circumstances. He also realises that to be a flag bearer, and make the changes, he might well set the seeds of change (if at all) but surely, will not benefit the fruits of benefit till he dies and possibly his children too. He does put himself before the nation (so call him unpatriotic, if one so wishes). So decides to "get up and look for the circumstances they want" and decides on the US. He finds it, so he doesnt need to make it. So he leaves.

Lets look at in another way. Not everybody is born with nation-do-good interests right away. Look at me. Right now, I want a better job, more money - I am 24 and I have dreams. Sure, sometimes I realise many of these may actually be a "mythical beast" as you so finely put it. But then again, many things need to be experienced to learn.

And often, once you acheive your personal top priority, you really are in a position to "feel" your archievement and really compare it with "was it really so important" ?

So these people who go off as soldiers of fortune to the US, many I know, who make their megabucks, and then realise out of experience, feel and retrospect that maybe money is not everything !

Yes, they return to India, now with a priority of doing betterment to what they left behind. But why so late? Because, as I said, in many cases, you dont realise it till you do it.

Its natural for people (esp young blooded beings) to be overtly materialistic - we have our dreams. Most of us are selfish. I admit it, - maybe many cannot or do not want to. Few are really selfless - and I respect them.

So now is Atul a criminal for leaving India behind and going to the US ? A complicated questions. We realise that is a compounded reaction of the backlog of society and the way it works. If we were to speak in assumptions. couldnt India be like the US in terms of opportunitites in IT ? sure it could - but it isnt - its crawling towards it . But now, can we blame him for leaving ? Its again idealistic to assume every one puts betterment of society before oneself. Man is a selfish being. At most are. And in these times, its difficult not being so.

Did you ever wonder why so many of our bosses keep telling us "money is not everything ?" and not our colleagues ? I keep hearing them from the likes of Madhu, Aadesh and their kin. To quite a great extent, they have first been there, done that to actually say that. Of course some of them say it merely 'cause the HR magazines say so, but many of them truly believe it.

I am very acceptable to the idea of ideals and priorities changing. You cannot always expect maturity of great/good level from everyone. What is more important is that he should learn and adapt. That we all do. In my opinion that man is no more in the wrong than anyone else.

Now Atul decides to come back to India - to serve his nation. Yes, he realised it after he actually achieved what he thought was most important (ie money) and then realised how important it really was.

Now do I look at him with a cynical eye - well I would not.

I would compare himself against myself and probably many others - we are here, not because we are patriots - but because
1. We have a heavy inertia
2. My company is paying kinda OK...
3. I've been promised lots of promotions in the next 2 years
4. I'm married and want to stay here
etc..etc...

So do I really point a finger at him ? Sure ! I wont lay a red carpet for him, but neither will I be indifferent to him. Its good that he wants to now invest in India.

Conclusion: Go where your think you need to go. Never give yourself the opportunity to think "If only I did that.. would I have been better...". Do it. And after doing it, if you realise that there is something else you needed to do - do it as well.

At least you tried - and succeeded or failed. What did I do ? Sit here as a false patriot without truly understanding its meaning ? I wont kid myself.

Again, above is with me in perspective. I respect those who put people before themselves. Whether its worth it or not is another issue in this world. I respect them just for their guts. Maybe someother people would like to call it foolishness - let them. Every man is entitled to have his own impression of the world. Is like Perl - "There's more than one way to look at it" :-)

So will I chastise people to go to the US and dont want to come back. Nope So will I chastise people to go to the US and want to come back. Nope Why ? Because I believe deep inside, irrespective of location, most of us work for ourselves first, others later.

And as far as symbiotic improvement is concerned, India can keep improving both with the help of RIs and NRIs.

***

... and then this thread conntinues to be dead as a dodo... I too lost interest because of IMO, the discussions were going off tangent...