+++++++++++++++++ Reply-To: From: "Ron D' Eau Claire" To: Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Date: Sun, 10 Feb 2002 23:20:14 -0800 > I need to be convinced that the Elecraft K2 is better than both the > FT100d and FT817??? > > How often do you do repairs? > > Can 15W get out as about the same as 50 or 100W?? > > Daniel 1) It is definitely NOT better if you don't want to build your own gear. 2) My K2 is 2 years old and has not needed any repairs or attention. I have installed a couple of modifications to make it do a few things a little better than before. Things that you'd send an FT100 or FT817 back to the factory to get - if they even offered any improvements. The Elecraft guys have upgraded the firmware several times, adding features and options that the owners requested. How often do the other rig manufacturers do that? 3) No, 15 watts can NOT get out as well as 50 or 100. But much of the time you can't tell the difference in making contacts. 15 watts is just about 1 "S" unit below 50 and a bit under two "S" units weaker than 100. However, the K2 is a 100 watt transceiver and the Elecraft guys are promising that the KPA100 amplifier module that mounts inside of it is nearly ready for sale. So you can match a 100 watt rig if you want. If you don't ever want to take the covers off of your rig - what we old timers (licensed in '52) call an "Appliance Operator" - then why would you look at an Elecraft product? I would definitely recommend that you avoid it... or at least that you buy one already built. But, if you enjoy the satisfaction of making it work yourself, and if knowing that you have a rig that is AMONG the best you can buy is important, then I don't know of anything that can touch the Elecraft K2. In recent years "home brew" became synonymous with 'limited performance' little rigs built for the pleasure of building, but which "everyone knew" could not compete with the commercially built equipment. Well, Elecraft changed all of that. They are NOT competing with the Icom's and Kenwood's and Yaesu's. The ops who wouldn't dream of every opening up their rig and who don't care about really knowing what is going on inside of the box will continue to buy those rigs, as they should. What Elecraft did was gave us dedicated builders a rig that is every bit as good as the appliances - and better than many in important ways. It's been a number of years since a kit-built rig could stand toe-to-toe with the best rigs in the market, and it has been a real source of pleasure to those of us who consider building our own gear an important part of being an Amateur Radio Operator. Convince you Daniel? No sir! You don't need to be convinced. The choice of ham rigs, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. If it appeals to you, go for it. If you demand to have a clean "winner" handed to in this business, you will forever be bombarded with others telling you what's best, and while you are digesting that something new will appear on the market. Ron AC7AC K2 # 1289 ++++++++++++++++++ From: Dave Barrett To: "'ham_tech at juno.com'" , "'elecraft at mailman.qth.net'" Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 06:12:58 -0800 Daniel, Anyone can buy a high power (black box) rig and turn it on daily, chat with just about any area of the world (depending of course on propagation) ......where's the lasting fun in that! The K2 enthusiasts around the world have become almost fanatical in their devotion to this little rig for a multitude of reasons but simply put because its put the fun back in Ham Radio for many thousands of us well seasoned hams who found that the fun was gone. The lads and lassies at Elecraft are hams themselves and understand all too well the general lack of interest nowadays in building your own equipment, they felt a need to fill that void and have done a fantastic job, their manuals are similar but better than the old Heathkit, their rigs are modern in design utilizing up to date components and modern RF techniques. The designers themselves are real hams who actually operate their equipment, (don't just pontificate about HF and never actually make contacts as some hams do :-) The facts in order of importance are simple, a good receiver is without doubt the first requirement, the K2's RXvr is hot, it is Ham bands only which makes it inherently far quieter than the "black box" rigs that sport full coverage receivers as if its a great thing....sorry its not. The filters are tight, the receiver will surprise you in its ability to pull out a miniscule signal from the noise, all the microprocessors in the rig are cleverly put to sleep when not in immediate use which again is something the black boxes don't to another reason they are so prone to noise in the rxver. The lower power of the transmitter is another area where QRP has brought out such a fanatical following for the K2, it makes it more of a challenge to make that contact, you actually have to hone your operating skills, really learn to operate all the functions of the rig and work at it....yes, it puts the fun back in Ham radio for many thousands of operators. The very fact that you build the rig yourself is of prime importance in another area too, when you build it, you understand what each section does, therefore along with the manual and built in test equipment you can repair it yourself should the need arise......no you will not have to repair it any more often than any other rig, the reason many folks talk of modifying their rigs is because they can..... its fun to do and easy on the K2 as it is fully documented, something you cannot do to a black box rig. Modern commercial transceivers are a bear to repair without proper documentation due to the shear complexity of the integrated circuitry and lack of proper information....not so with the Elecraft rigs. The builders resource web page and email list are a great resource that no other manufacturer has fostered. Before you make a decision, try a K2....actually sit and operate it, run one side by side with a black box rig.....you will soon see why we love 'em so, I was a tried and true Icom 765 man, as soon as I did a side by side comparison, I sold the Icom ! Have fun with Ham Radio mate, get a K2 ! Dave Barrett VA7DB BC QRP Club Pres. Vancouver Canada. +++++++++++++++++ Date: 11 Feb 2002 07:12:27 -0800 From: "Jim and Kate" To: ham_tech at juno.com, " " Subject: RE: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Hi Daniel: I put my K2 on the air a year and a half ago with wonderful results. I can't compare it with any other radios except for the ones I have owned: A Kenwood TS-570D(G) and an Omni VI+. I find the K2 superior to both. It is both portable and permanent. That's a plus. It has the most satisfying CW note that I can remember ever hearing. It has been the focus of an emerging community of amateurs on this reflector. I think that 9 or 10 watts is all I need. The radios that you refer to are fine radios, I'm sure, but even a casual reading of the comments on this reflector should quickly inform your final choice. Oh yes. I have never repaired my K2. Like the energizer bunny "It just keeps.............." 73, Jim K7JIH #1302 K2 +++++++++++++++++++ Reply-To: "Ed Juge/NM" From: "Ed Juge/NM" To: , Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 08:24:08 -0800 Hi, Daniel... I bought an FT-817, then bought and built a K2. I've had great fun with both. I normally run the K2 at 5 watts, but when needed have cranked it up to 10. Don't expect 15... you MIGHT get there on some bands, but should get 10 on all bands. The difference is miniscule. Either radio --and a GOOD (not necessarily big or expensive) antenna installation-- will get you contacts any time you want to talk, on CW or SSB. If you're trying to maintain a sked with specific people across the country on a regular basis, you'll find neither one will be adequate under poor conditions. Translation: I wouldn't want either as my ONLY HF radio, but when I just want to chew the rag, I ALWAYS reach for the K2 before my Icom 756PRO and 1500 watt amp. The K2 is far easier to run than the 817 based on the fact that more controls are on the front panel on the K2, and more of them are in menus on the 817. (The K2 has menus, too, but mostly things you'll set once and forget.) The K2 is larger so its controls are MUCH easier to see and operate. The K2 also offers things like three switchable crystal filter settings for SSB and three for CW. To get two filter settings on the 817, you must order and install expensive optional filters. The K2's optional audio filter is an amazingly good add-on for CW (useless on SSB... too narrow). The 817's ONLY advantages, to me, are 1) it goes up to 70cm (I have HTs for that) and 2) you can walk around attempting to talk on it if you are so inclined. For HF, you REALLY need an external antenna for best results which means sitting in one place. For HF portable operation, the K2 still shines with some 20+hours of listening time on its optional internal battery vs. only 4 or 5 on the 817. The K2's battery has far more capacity and it can be cut down to draw only a fraction of the 817's drain. I thought I was going to take the 817 on business trips to while away evening hours in a hotel room. After one trip carrying the 817, power supply, antenna tuner, some wire for radials, and an ATX Walkabout antenna, I said never again. No matter how I tried, I was never able to hear a single HF signal from inside a hotel room and it was just too much junque to carry around. Good idea... the implementation just didn't work. I have since purchased a Kenwood TH-F6A mini-HT which should receive (my main interest anyway) HF CW/SSB with a wire hung out the window. Haven't had the opportunity to try it yet. As others have indicated, your primary concern in an HF radio should always be the best receiver you can find. While the 817 seemed surprisingly close to the K2, the K2 still wins in A/B testing. The difference may only show up on one of a dozen or so very weak signals. Bottom line, for me, is... when I get ready to work QRP, I turned on the K2, not the 817. I sold the 817 a couple of weeks ago after realizing I hadn't had it turned on at all in about nine months. Notice I've confined my remarks to performance. I haven't mentioned building the K2 from a kit. If you enjoy building, as I do, that's another plus. If you don't, then you can buy one already built. There are always a few hard-core builders who would welcome the chance to sell theirs and build another. If I had it to do over --knowing what I've learned from owning both-- I would go K2 without a thought of an 817. "Your mileage may vary depending on your driving habits." Good Luck... Ed, W5EJ ++++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 07:59:38 -0800 From: Phil Wheeler Organization: Outstanding To: Ed Juge/NM Cc: ham_tech at juno.com, Elecraft at mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Ed Juge/NM wrote: > >The 817's ONLY advantages, to me, are 1) it goes up to 70cm (I have HTs for >that) > My take has been that the FT-817 has two advantages: o All mode on 6, 2 and 70 cm (good for hill topping using SSB/CW on those bands, which no HT I know of will do) o Full coverage HF receive. Those plusses have not motivated me to buy one, however. Oops .. I left out o Cuteness 73, Phil ++++++++++++++++ Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 12:34:56 -0800 (PST) From: Jessie Oberreuter To: ham_tech at juno.com Cc: elecraft at mailman.qth.net Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 ham_tech at juno.com wrote: > I need to be convinced that the Elecraft K2 is better than both the > FT100d and FT817??? Can 15W get out as about the same as 50 or 100W?? I'd say it comes down to what you are trying to accomplish. I own a 706m2, an FT100D, numerous 10-20w single band rigs, and a four band K1. I was going to get a K2, but between the K1-4 and the 706, I'm pretty happy. Here's how I divvy up rigs and operating: FT100D Don't bother. I bought this rig specifically for my VW Passat b/c it fits the dash and matches the color scheme :). I would NEVER recommend it for a general purpose rig. The firmware is buggy, the menu system is hell to navigate, the keyer and QSK adjustments are less than useful, and the fans are too loud to operate over. 2k2 from the factory and I still had to mod around a firmware bug. 706m2 This rig has proven an excellent investment. It spends most of its time on my office desk set to 20-30w on HF for cw. For CW, I almost consider this QRO! This rig also goes w/ me on almost all field activities. For Field Day, it fits side by side w/ its ATU in a computer bag w/ room for a G5RV and all cables. For VHF contests, I replace the ATU with a 220 rig. I turn the power up once in a rare while for a sked. A dedicated base rig w/out the menus and fans would be nice, but if you can only have one rig, its a fine choice! K2 To me, a K2 vs a 706 is a tough call, and I'd likely go w/ the 706 -- the rx is good enough, the form factor makes rugged packing easier, and the extra bands make for fewer rigs to on a given trip. OTOH, if I took contesting more seriously or did more HF SSB, I'd pick up a K2 w/out a second thought. The built in battery and ATU in the K2 is a big win. Were I packing to my contest site, I'd take the all-in-one K2 over the 706. K1-4 I adore this little rig. It goes with me on all of my trips, and when I'm not camping or out of town, it lives at my bedside. I was planning on getting a K2 until the four band module came out. Now, the K1 is pretty much all I need. Various I have quite a variety of smaller single band rigs: MFJ 94xx, Radio Shack 10m, etc. On VHF cw/ssb, 10-20w is a lot of fun! I really don't work much HF SSB, so I have no idea if 15w is really a problem. FT817 For CW work, get a K1-4. Smaller, lasts longer on a charge, built in ATU, etc. For SSB, I'd be more likely to throw one of my single banders in a backpack than an 817, but your milage may vary. I've known 2-3 people who love them, and I have a friend who will likely pick one up soon as he has the money. W/out a tuner, tho, decent multi-band portable gets to be work. If I were serious about packing a mutli-band CW/SSB rig, I'd get a K2. +++++++++++++++++ From: "Dave Johnson" To: Cc: Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Convince me?!! Date: Mon, 11 Feb 2002 19:01:27 -0000 >I need to be convinced that the Elecraft K2 is better than both the >FT100d and FT817??? If you need convincing you won't appreciate the K2... If you are into CW there is no comparison, the K2 is where you need to be. I have a TS570DG along side my K2, it's no contest. A loaned IC706 MKII(G) lasted 10 minutes. 73's Dave, G4AON K2 #1892 ++++++++++++++++