From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 1 09:38:08 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id JAA29106 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 09:38:08 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dewayne@mail.warpspeed.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 07:36:26 -0800 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: [ss] UWB History Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk [Note: This comes from another list I'm on but I decided to post it here because I thought that it would be of general interest. Dewayne, WA8DZP] For an introduction to the history of ultra wideband communications, please see . Included is an interesting article written by Dr. Gerald F. Ross on the "Early Motivations and History of UWB Technology." Dr. Ross is currently President of Anro Engineering, Inc. and is one of the original inventors in the UWB field, with fundamental research and development efforts dating back to the 1950's. Dr. Ross is a Fellow of the IEEE and Member of the National Academy of Engineering, both honors awarded for his pioneering work in the field of time domain electromagnetics and ultra wideband technology. Source: FCC Notice of Inquiry / Ultra-Wideband Working Group mailing list --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 1 17:26:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id RAA14587 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:26:59 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Wayne Harrell" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" References: Subject: [ss] Re: UWB History Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 18:28:55 -0500 Organization: Harrell Communications MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by shelly.surfsouth.com id SAA19689 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <009301bf24c0$debcd020$0200a8c0@surfsouth.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by tapr.org id RAA14587 Since many of us use e-mail for business and to keep up with friends and family, I thought you'd like to know the following. Please jump on it right away and forward this to others. CNN has reported that within the next two weeks Congress is going to vote on allowing telephone companies to CHARGE A TOLL FEE for Internet access. Translation: Every time we send long distance e-mail we will receive a long distance charge. This will get costly. Please visit the following web site and file a complaint. Complain to your Congressperson. We can't allow this to pass The following address will allow you to send an e-mail on this subject DIRECTLY to your Congressperson. http://www.house.gov/writerep Pass this on to your friends. It is urgent! I hope all of you will pass this on to all your friends and family. We should ALL have an interest in this one. WAIT, THERE'S MORE. IN ADDITION, The last few months have revealed an alarming trend in the Government of the United States attempting to quietly push through legislation that will affect your use of the Internet. Under proposed legislation the U.S. Postal Service will be attempting to bilk email users out of "alternate postage fees". Bill 602P will permit the Federal Govt to charge a 5 cent surcharge on every email delivered, by billing Internet Service Providers at source. The consumer would then be billed in turn by the ISP. Washington D.C. lawyer Richard Stepp is working without pay to prevent this legislation from becoming law. The U.S. Postal Service is claiming that lost revenue due to the proliferation of email is costing nearly $230,000,000 in revenue per year. You may have noticed their recent ad campaign "There is nothing like a letter". Since the average citizen received about 10 pieces of email per day in 1998, the cost to the typical individual would be an additional 50 cents per day, or over $180 dollars Per year, above and beyond there regular Internet costs. Note that this would be money paid directly to the U.S. Postal Service for a service they do not even provide. The whole point of the Internet is democracy and non-interference. If the federal government is permitted to tamper with our liberties by adding a surcharge to email, who knows Where it will end. You are already paying an exorbitant price for snail mail because of bureaucratic inefficiency. It currently takes up to 6 days for a letter to be delivered from New York to Buffalo. If The U.S. Postal Service is allowed to tinker with email; it will mark the end of the "free" Internet in the United States. One congressman, Tony Schnell ® has even suggested a "twenty to forty dollar per month surcharge on all internet service" above and beyond the government's proposed email Charges. Note that most of the major newspapers have ignored the story, the only exception being the Washingtonian which called the idea of email surcharge "a useful concept who's time has come" (March 6th, 1999) Editorial. Don't sit by and watch your freedoms erode away! Send this e-mail to EVERYONE on your list, and tell all your friends and relatives to write to their congressman and say "No!" to Bill 602P. It will only take a few moments of your time, and could very well be instrumental in killing a bill we don't want. PASS THIS ON TO EVERYONE YOU KNOW WHO USES EMAIL REMEMBER THESE ARE TWO SEPARATE ISSUES THAT EFFECT ALL OF US ONLINE LET YOUR VOICE BE HEARD NOW, NOT AFTER Regards, Wayne Harrell WD4LYV Please forward to any sigs you are a part of and contact the web site below.> --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 1 17:30:43 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id RAA14740 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:30:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Mon, 01 Nov 1999 18:29:15 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Eric S. Johansson" Subject: [ss] com chip seen on slashdot Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991101182623.00c52e90@harvee.billerica.ma.us> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk One Chip For All Your Wireless Needs Posted by Hemos on 12:37 PM November 1st, 1999 EST from the i-want-one-my-head dept. shaar writes "Motorola has introduced another neat wireless chip. It seems this new chip would get us all closer to the all-in-one gadget no matter where you are. From the press release blurb: 'The chip conforms to the Code-Division Multiple Access (CDMA), Global System for Mobile Communications (GSM), Integrated Digital Enhanced Network (iDEN), and Time Division Multiple Access (TDMA) standards and also supports satellite-based products.' " http://slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=99/11/01/1038209&mode=flat any use for ham networks? --- eric (ka1eec) Eric S Johansson esj@inguide.com esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us This message was composed using NaturallySpeaking. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 1 19:21:18 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id TAA17807 for ; Mon, 1 Nov 1999 19:21:16 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 1 Nov 1999 17:19:38 -0800 (PST) From: "Scott C. Best" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: UWB History In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Wayne: On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Wayne Harrell wrote: > Since many of us use e-mail for business and to keep up with friends... > family, I thought you'd like to know the following. Please jump on it > right away and forward this to others. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please take special note of that phrase. Next time you see it in an email, head quickly to: www.autodream.com/chain/ or chainletters.org/ Both have pretty thorough collections of every email hoax ever sent. Reading it there first might make you reconsider. Although...heh...it is kinda funny to think that you replied to Dewayne's email about UWB with a chain letter. Somehow I don't imagine that the historical accounting of carrier-less transmission ever got forwarded a few hundred thousand times... Maybe you shoulda updated it to a "Congress announces a new fee on UWB transmission; tell everyone you know!". Far more relevant. :) -Scott --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 8 16:11:39 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id QAA04975 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 16:11:39 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 X-Sender: dewayne@mail.warpspeed.com Message-Id: Date: Mon, 8 Nov 1999 14:09:49 -0800 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: [ss] Bandwidth from thin air Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk There is an interesting article on UWB technology and Lucent's BLAST (Bell Labs Layered Space-Time) technology in the most recent edition of the 'The Economist'. The article contrasts the two technologies and talks about how they can be used to deliver wireless bandwidth. Its available for free browsing on their website at: -- Dewayne --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 8 17:00:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id RAA06880 for ; Mon, 8 Nov 1999 17:00:57 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 15:59:10 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Bandwidth from thin air In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991108155238.041f7d00@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Lately, Lucent has trumpeted a bunch of wild ideas about wireless -- including one scheme involving light rather than radio waves. But can they execute and deliver? Of late, I have had much trouble even talking to Lucent about existing products, such as their WaveLAN gear. No matter what your question, all they'll say is, "Go talk to a distributor." But the distributors are untrained and technically unknowledgeable, and so can't answer even the most basic technical question. Instead, they subtract value from the product while pocketing a big markup. I therefore do not think that any Lucent announcement should be taken too seriously. The company does not seem to have any idea how to market, deal with engineers, or deal with end users. --Brett Glass At 02:09 PM 11/8/1999 -0800, Dewayne Hendricks wrote: > There is an interesting article on UWB technology and Lucent's BLAST (Bell Labs Layered Space-Time) technology in the most recent edition of the 'The Economist'. The article contrasts the two technologies and talks about how they can be used to deliver wireless bandwidth. Its available for free browsing on their website at: > > > >-- Dewayne > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: BRETT@LARIAT.ORG >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Tue Nov 9 17:43:11 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id RAA03623 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 17:43:11 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [195.121.6.99] From: "Hamoperator SM7UGT Marcel bos" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 15:41:37 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991109234138.95682.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk In order to read Postscript you need gostscript for PC.. Exact and uncomersial! >From: Brett Glass >Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >CC: janovetz@uiuc.edu >Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. >Date: Thu, 06 May 1999 09:34:53 -0600 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >From bounce-ss-4919@lists.tapr.org Thu May 06 08:35:18 1999 >Received: from [204.17.217.24] by hotmail.com (1.5) with SMTP id >MHotMailB8FB01AF0113D1B98331CC11D9180D430; Thu May 06 08:35:18 1999 >Return-Path: >Message-Id: > >X-Sender: brett@localhost >In-Reply-To: tapr.org> >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 >List-Subscribe: >List-Owner: >X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio >X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.37.19990506093222.044944e0@localhost> >Sender: bounce-ss-4919@lists.tapr.org >Precedence: bulk > >Why, oh why do people persist in posting papers in PostScript? The only way >many people can read this proprietary format online is in a graphics >program. Is the paper available in HTML or another non-proprietary, easily >readable format? > >--Brett Glass > >At 08:42 AM 5/6/99 -0500, Jake Janovetz wrote: >>http://cm.bell-labs.com/who/{ruediger or tjr}/pub.html > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: SM1UGT@HOTMAIL.COM >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Tue Nov 9 22:09:33 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id WAA12200 for ; Tue, 9 Nov 1999 22:09:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 22:07:22 -0600 From: "W. Hulse" Subject: [ss] Re: Bandwidth from thin air To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3155.0 X-Priority: 3 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <001f01bf2b31$176d63a0$db00c1cf@w5ni.swbell.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk What bugs me about that article is that I haven't figured out how they keep six insects sitting still, without waving their antennae around and causing phase shifts. If they would use conventional antennas, maybe they would have better luck. Must have been a newcomer who wrote the article, a biologist maybe. 73, Bill -----Original Message----- From: Brett Glass To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Date: Monday, November 08, 1999 5:01 PM Subject: [ss] Re: Bandwidth from thin air >Lately, Lucent has trumpeted a bunch of wild ideas about wireless -- including one >scheme involving light rather than radio waves. But can they execute and deliver? > >Of late, I have had much trouble even talking to Lucent about existing products, such as >their WaveLAN gear. No matter what your question, all they'll say is, "Go talk to a >distributor." But the distributors are untrained and technically unknowledgeable, and >so can't answer even the most basic technical question. Instead, they subtract >value from the product while pocketing a big markup. > >I therefore do not think that any Lucent announcement should be taken too seriously. >The company does not seem to have any idea how to market, deal with engineers, or >deal with end users. > >--Brett Glass > >At 02:09 PM 11/8/1999 -0800, Dewayne Hendricks wrote: > >> There is an interesting article on UWB technology and Lucent's BLAST (Bell Labs Layered Space-Time) technology in the most recent edition of the 'The Economist'. The article contrasts the two technologies and talks about how they can be used to deliver wireless bandwidth. Its available for free browsing on their website at: >> >> >> >>-- Dewayne >> >>--- >>You are currently subscribed to ss as: BRETT@LARIAT.ORG >>To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: W5NI@SWBELL.NET >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 16:03:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.11) with SMTP id QAA26393 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 16:03:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 10:18:22 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110094340.045b1190@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 03:41 PM 11/9/1999 -0800, Hamoperator SM7UGT Marcel bos wrote: >In order to read Postscript you need gostscript for PC.. Exact and uncomersial! GhostScript is GPLed software. The purpose of the GPL is to destroy programmers' livelihoods as well as markets for commercial software. As commercial software developers, we believe that programmers should be compensated for their work and that open source should be a positive force and should be available for use by all. Its use must not be denied to developers of commercial software (as the GPL does) or used as a weapon to enforce a destructive agenda. We therefore avoid the use of GPLed software, and advocate that it not be used whenever possible. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 20:30:48 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id UAA03834 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:30:47 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: Bagus To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Building System ?? Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:28:36 -0800 Encoding: 10 TEXT, 66 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <01BF2C27.233229E0.bagus@risti.telkom.co.id> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Does anyone could inform to me, How to build a transmission system for data with spread spectum radio system? May be some description about the circuits and everything that important to design for. Thank you, Bagus a new comer of the list. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B<1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`] $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````6P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````%1!4%(@4W!R96%D(%-P96-T``,P`0```!(```!S``$P`0```"X````G5$%04B!3<')E M860@4W!E8W1R=6T@4W!E8VEA;"!);G1E7-T96T@/S\`<08! M!8 #``X```#/!PL`"P`)`!P`) `$`#D!`2" `P`.````SP<+``L`"0`6``H` M! `9`0$)@ $`(0```#,U-C!%135&,3$Y.$0S,3%"0S@Q,# R,$%&1#9$0S0V M`"$'`0.0!@`P" ``(0````L``@`!````"P`C```````#`"8```````L`*0`` M`````P`N```````#`#8``````$ `.0! .I O:BR_`1X`< `!````$P```$)U M:6QD:6YG(%-Y# $````#````15@``!X`'PP!````+ ```"]O/51%3$M/ M32]O=3U225-422]C;CU296-I<&EE;G1S+V-N/51U8F%G=7,``P`&$"AD$; # M``<0Q ```!X`"! !````90```$1/15-!3EE/3D5#3U5,1$E.1D]2351/344L M2$]75$]"54E,1$%44D%.4TU)4U-)3TY365-414U&3U)$051!5TE42%-04D5! M1%-014-454U2041)3U-94U1%33]-05E"15-/344``````@$)$ $````+!0`` M!P4``+@+``!,6D9UU$,X'P,`"@!R8W!G,3(UP4RAU8FH%D'17 ML$1AZ'1E.C8D-D__40]2'_]3+U0Y,< ]HPXA2Z$ZM@Y0FU5O5GY2.8$7`2!( M/9'[!) V)#=9;UI_6X]##W>'!Q40& ;E@P M`& )\$V@[WT``@$UX%Y290#P?0`Q@))P'H!<=@B0=VL+@/YD:T" H@3P!T 0 M80% #@#O<2(]@H(%`A!O!4(7(1+R#5C ;0M16, @0SI #8'-O`8 @KD\!( W@?_!#_B@(!D `@BI* \7U!`<&* M`3\6X ]P``!&T S0`9 @+O\:$HGX#E"*LDYP>,"++XP_?XU/#\!&T 6!CN^/ M_Y$/;+MK0$;0;(ZODV^4=2F-?(\E0))/ER^49&(@* *1_YA/BD-94)7_FK^; MSYS?BG#_8Q">(HK_GX^@GXU\* ">+_^CKZ2_I<^*<'@`HJ^H/ZE/OZI4"OD# M,'@O>3]ZS7M\\/L'D0!P>0(@$X %H$Y@-2!#"X!_3%PA! @?W$@[F18L)3 `_!T3R!R M@!KP[[%0N(%847T@($[ /;"TL/6W1#]]<7FUX!. AA '@/^WX >0!0.W`@&@ M9T&TD#'0^;/ :7)]$$W LT(U(&'B_GFX8#W"N&!8L+0@A" )$7\`<+PAM+"[ M(;' `Z!_<2Y+"H4*A524$6L@LX!U^BR_W$).T+& "H64P#5@_P?@!: '@ 7 MAB"\,V=P,7"?O\:O%*_?L.\%0'L@QY 1Q'9]``#(< `#`! 0``````,`$1 ! M`````P" $/____] ````B "" &``````# ```` M````1@`````VA0```0````$`````````'@`)@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````-X4```$````!`````````!X`"H (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#B% H```!`````0`````````>`#T``0````$``````````P`--/TW``!/4@`` ` end --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 20:32:25 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id UAA03884 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:32:25 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Jeff Millar" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" References: Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:19:41 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <001d01bf2beb$3765f180$0201a8c0@home> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk ----- Original Message ----- From: Brett Glass To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Sent: Wednesday, November 10, 1999 12:18 PM Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. >>>off topic political diatribe deleted<<< > We therefore > avoid the use of GPLed software, and advocate that it not be used whenever > possible. > > --Brett Glass Who's "We" in this context? I didn't know of any organizations of that type. jeff --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 21:47:29 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id VAA05912 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 21:47:29 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:45:52 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991110204352.047e5770@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 09:19 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Jeff Millar wrote: > > We therefore > > avoid the use of GPLed software, and advocate that it not be used whenever > > possible. > > > > --Brett Glass > > >Who's "We" in this context? Our company and its several affiliates, as well as quite a number of others. The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. --Brett --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 22:08:24 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id WAA06534 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:08:24 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 22:05:54 -0600 From: Jake Janovetz To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Brett Glass on Wed, Nov 10, 1999 at 08:45:52PM -0700 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991110220554.A20466@tempest.ece.uiuc.edu> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk > >Who's "We" in this context? > > Our company and its several affiliates, as well as quite a number of others. > > The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," > plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > > --Brett Hmm.. Not me. I've released a thing or two under GPL and it is for the simple reason that I don't want to sell the shit. I had fun doing it, but I'd like to stay out of the rest of the crap that goes along with selling something and move on. Why not public domain then? Well, again, for the simple reason that I don't think anyone else has the right to profit from my work. If I want to profit that's my own choice, but I don't want to give someone else the right to profit from it. Cheers, Jake -- janovetz@uiuc.edu | How can it be that mathematics, being after all a University of Illinois | product of human thought independent of experience, | is so admirably adapted to the objects of reality? PP-ASEL | - Albert Einstein Disclaimer: The policies of this University certainly do not reflect my own opinions, objectives, or agenda. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Wed Nov 10 23:34:53 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id XAA10493 for ; Wed, 10 Nov 1999 23:34:52 -0600 (CST) Errors-To: Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 00:35:05 -0500 From: Jeff King Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382A5589.5A32C098@aerodata.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Jake Janovetz wrote: > > The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," > > plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > > > > --Brett > Why not public domain then? Well, again, for the simple reason > that I don't think anyone else has the right to profit from my work. > If I want to profit that's my own choice, but I don't want to give > someone else the right to profit from it. Maybe you didn't understand what Brett meant then. Its basically exactly what you are saying..... denying others the ability to profit from your work.... i.e. "Monkey wrenching". -Jeff --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 01:14:41 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id BAA18476 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 01:14:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: rwmcgwier@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 02:11:49 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Robert McGwier Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.1.19991111021103.00943aa0@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk What do any of these religious software wars have to do with spread spectrum? This is definitely off topic. At 08:45 PM 11/10/1999 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:19 PM 11/10/1999 -0500, Jeff Millar wrote: > >> > We therefore >> > avoid the use of GPLed software, and advocate that it not be used whenever >> > possible. >> > >> > --Brett Glass >> >> >>Who's "We" in this context? > >Our company and its several affiliates, as well as quite a number of others. > >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > >--Brett > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: RWMCGWIER@HOME.COM >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 07:04:52 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id HAA04805 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:04:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:03:03 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Eric S. Johansson" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111075029.00b9b740@harvee.billerica.ma.us> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 02:11 AM 11/11/1999 , Robert McGwier wrote: >What do any of these religious software wars have to do with >spread spectrum? This is definitely off topic. you really hit the nail on the head! Irrational avoidance of the GPL or any discussion thereof should be taken to the gnu newsgroups. for a better understanding of what the GPL really is about, I suggest folks read the document for themselves. You can find more information at http://www.gnu.org. If you want to read more of Bretts arguments you can find them at: http://www.cptech.org/altos/brett.html If you want my opinions on the GPL and why it is a fundamentally positive change for the software industry, you can write me at: esj@inguide.com I will spare others on the list any further rants. Eric S Johansson esj@inguide.com esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us This message was composed using NaturallySpeaking. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 07:46:49 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id HAA06029 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 07:46:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 08:45:24 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Eric S. Johansson" Subject: [ss] anything more to this than hype? In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111084431.00a976f0@harvee.billerica.ma.us> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk http://www.allnetdevices.com/news/9911/991109qualcomm/991109qualcomm.html it's a story about the Qualcomm 2 Mbps local loop replacement. --- eric Eric S Johansson esj@inguide.com esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us This message was composed using NaturallySpeaking. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 09:03:33 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id JAA08477 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:03:32 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 09:01:33 -0600 From: Jake Janovetz To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii In-Reply-To: ; from Jeff King on Thu, Nov 11, 1999 at 12:35:05AM -0500 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991111090133.A5671@tempest.ece.uiuc.edu> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk > > Why not public domain then? Well, again, for the simple reason > > that I don't think anyone else has the right to profit from my work. > > If I want to profit that's my own choice, but I don't want to give > > someone else the right to profit from it. > > Maybe you didn't understand what Brett meant then. Its basically exactly > what you are saying..... denying others the ability to profit from your > work.... i.e. "Monkey wrenching". No, only if you consider it "monkey wrenching" into the machine of theft. You see, I'm not denying anyone the ability to make a profit from _THEIR_ work, but there's no way in hell I'm going to volunteer my work and let them make money from it. What I think he is getting at is that GPL people are competing in a manner which puts for-profit companies out of business. That is, providing a product that is just as good as the expensive one -- for free. Perhaps that's the motive for some people, but that's not my motive. And, I don't think it is to be inferred from the GPL license. Cheers, Jake -- janovetz@uiuc.edu | How can it be that mathematics, being after all a University of Illinois | product of human thought independent of experience, | is so admirably adapted to the objects of reality? PP-ASEL | - Albert Einstein Disclaimer: The policies of this University certainly do not reflect my own opinions, objectives, or agenda. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 12:11:47 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id MAA13843 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 12:11:46 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Vazquez, Miguel" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 11:21:02 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk This is a mail list for SPREAD SPECTRUM TECHNOLOGIES I think you need to write in another place (for software developers) Thank you!! (I don't want to known NOTHING about GPL or whatever it;s...) --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 20:53:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id UAA03164 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 20:53:58 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Jeff Millar" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" References: Subject: [ss] Re: anything more to this than hype? Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 21:43:10 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <001b01bf2cb7$a9d662a0$0201a8c0@home> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk >From a quick look at Qualcomm's site, it looks like they use the standard CDMA cellphone spread spectrum chipping rate (at 1.25 MHz bw that supports mobile, long range, cell phones) but use the chips for data instead of processing gain. They probably transmit about 1 chip per bit instead of lots of chips per bit. But as the signal gets weaker, they probably increase the number of chips per bit to get back some processing gain. The algorithm may also have increased the number of phase/amplitude levels per chip since they can assume better SNR. This approach probably operates at lower power, with shorter range and with less multipath handling. The industry is developing a lot of these kind of things to enable people to roam around campuses, airports, etc while using laptops, palm computing, etc connected to a network. The algorithms assume very small cells, slowly changing multipath environment, walking speeds or fixed operation. A lot of approaches assume asymetrical bandwidth...fast to the terminal, slow from terminal...saves battery. Who knows which of these approaches will succeed, but a couple will. My personal opinion is that frequency hopped approaches have some advantages over spread spectrum at this time for battery operated devices. Time will tell. jeff ----- Original Message ----- From: Eric S. Johansson To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 8:45 AM Subject: [ss] anything more to this than hype? > http://www.allnetdevices.com/news/9911/991109qualcomm/991109qualcomm.html > > it's a story about the Qualcomm 2 Mbps local loop replacement. > > --- eric > > Eric S Johansson esj@inguide.com esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us > This message was composed using NaturallySpeaking. > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to ss as: JEFF@WA1HCO.MV.COM > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > > --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 23:17:10 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id XAA07914 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:17:06 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:15:43 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111221133.04170210@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 08:03 AM 11/11/1999 -0500, Eric S. Johansson wrote: >Irrational avoidance of the GPL or any discussion thereof should be taken >to the gnu newsgroups. It's very rational to avoid the GPL. > for a better understanding of what the GPL really is about, I suggest > folks read the document for themselves. You can find more information at > http://www.gnu.org. At that site, you will find misleading propaganda and rhetoric rather than an honest account of the history of the GPL and its effects. >If you want to read more of Bretts arguments you can find them at: >http://www.cptech.org/altos/brett.html This is a poor choice. The page cited just above is a series of randomly selected quotes from a few of my postings to one mailing list. It was compiled by a GPL zealot who hoped to trivialize arguments against this destructive license. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Thu Nov 11 23:30:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id XAA10173 for ; Thu, 11 Nov 1999 23:30:55 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Thu, 11 Nov 1999 22:29:07 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991111222636.0416daa0@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 09:01 AM 11/11/1999 -0600, Jake Janovetz wrote: >> Maybe you didn't understand what Brett meant then. Its basically exactly > > what you are saying..... denying others the ability to profit from your > > work.... i.e. "Monkey wrenching". > >No, only if you consider it "monkey wrenching" into the machine of >theft. You see, I'm not denying anyone the ability to make a profit >from _THEIR_ work, but there's no way in hell I'm going to volunteer >my work and let them make money from it. You don't understand, then. If you have already given away your work for free, then no one can make money from it as-is, because it's already available for free! To make money from it, someone must add value -- and any money that person makes will be solely the result of that added value. What's more, they'll probably have to add a LOT of value to convince anyone not to go with the free version. That's quite a handicap to start with already. Adding a "poison pill" is nothing but spite. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 02:43:07 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id CAA20001 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 02:43:06 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 00:41:07 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: From: Phil Karn To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" CC: ss@lists.tapr.org, "karn@qualcomm.com" (message from Brett Glass on Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:45:52 -0700) Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <199911120841.AAA18570@servo.qualcomm.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer projects. There are many reasons: 1. Open source software benefits significantly from the increased opportunity for others to find and fix bugs, add new features, and port it to other platforms. 2. Opening your source code greatly increases its educational value to the amateur community. Ham radio is now all but irrelevant in emergency communcations due to cell and satellite phones, to enhancing international goodwill (due to the Internet) and in advancing the radio art (ham radio is now about 20-30 years behind the state of the art, and falling back fast). So the one way that ham radio can still make a contribution is in its opportunities for personal technical education and training. And one of the best ways to learn is to take things apart and see how they're built. When I got into electronics and ham radio, I studied every schematic I could get my hands on. Today, the real action is in software. And source code is to software what a schematic is to hardware. 3. Releasing code under the GPL, as opposed to just releasing it to the public domain, appeals to a lot of authors (like me) who want to help other hams but who don't want to be exploited by those who would make some minor enhancement and take my work proprietary. And in a group effort, having everyone agree to the GPL ahead of time assures everyone that nobody will be in a position to exploit the work of the others somewhere down the line. Nothing destroys the camaraderie of a group of idealistic volunteers faster than money. Nobody says that you *must* release any code you write under the GPL. It's your personal decision. But if you're sincerely interested in maximizing your benefit to the amateur cause, then the GPL is the way to go. Phil --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 03:42:31 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id DAA01783 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 03:42:30 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Darnell Gadberry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 01:40:00 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Bret, I learned much about the inner-workings of TCP/IP from reading and analyzing Phil's GPL'd code. Without talented software engineers like Phil who are willing to release their intellectual property into the public domain, I seriously doubt that the Internet and general PC industry would have achieved the incredible growth that we have witnessed over the past 6 - 10 years. If you find the idea of software released under the GPL completely unpaletable, you are certainly free not to use it. However, it just strikes me as more than a little childish that you would waste so much mental energy on an issue which is globally just not that important. I have worked as a commercial software developer for over 16 years (Apple, Electronic Arts, DEC, Pastel Development, Cobalt Networks) and needless to say, I am generally very concerned about any trend that woud potentially deprive me of my livelyhood. I do not feel in the least bit threatened by software released under the GPL; why should you? Perhaps, we can now move onto more substantial topics like coercing Phil to help us (TAPR) design an inexpensive and flexible hand-held 1.2 GHz spread-spectrum radio. - darnell -------------------------------------- Darnell Gadberry KE6UCL President, binaryMedia Communications Contributing Editor, CMP Media, Inc./Byte.com darnell@binmedia.com -----Original Message----- From: bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org [mailto:bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org]On Behalf Of Phil Karn Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 12:41 AM To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Cc: ss@lists.tapr.org; karn@qualcomm.com (message from Brett Glass on Wed, 10 Nov 1999 20:45:52 -0700) Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer projects. There are many reasons: 1. Open source software benefits significantly from the increased opportunity for others to find and fix bugs, add new features, and port it to other platforms. 2. Opening your source code greatly increases its educational value to the amateur community. Ham radio is now all but irrelevant in emergency communcations due to cell and satellite phones, to enhancing international goodwill (due to the Internet) and in advancing the radio art (ham radio is now about 20-30 years behind the state of the art, and falling back fast). So the one way that ham radio can still make a contribution is in its opportunities for personal technical education and training. And one of the best ways to learn is to take things apart and see how they're built. When I got into electronics and ham radio, I studied every schematic I could get my hands on. Today, the real action is in software. And source code is to software what a schematic is to hardware. 3. Releasing code under the GPL, as opposed to just releasing it to the public domain, appeals to a lot of authors (like me) who want to help other hams but who don't want to be exploited by those who would make some minor enhancement and take my work proprietary. And in a group effort, having everyone agree to the GPL ahead of time assures everyone that nobody will be in a position to exploit the work of the others somewhere down the line. Nothing destroys the camaraderie of a group of idealistic volunteers faster than money. Nobody says that you *must* release any code you write under the GPL. It's your personal decision. But if you're sincerely interested in maximizing your benefit to the amateur cause, then the GPL is the way to go. Phil --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: DARNELL@BINMEDIA.COM To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 06:06:55 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id GAA04562 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 06:06:54 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: rwmcgwier@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:05:03 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Robert McGwier Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.1.19991112070410.00949cd0@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Can you please at least change the subject of this off topic thread? I would like to add it to my filters! Bob At 10:29 PM 11/11/1999 -0700, you wrote: >At 09:01 AM 11/11/1999 -0600, Jake Janovetz wrote: > > >> Maybe you didn't understand what Brett meant then. Its basically exactly >> > what you are saying..... denying others the ability to profit from your >> > work.... i.e. "Monkey wrenching". >> >>No, only if you consider it "monkey wrenching" into the machine of >>theft. You see, I'm not denying anyone the ability to make a profit >>from _THEIR_ work, but there's no way in hell I'm going to volunteer >>my work and let them make money from it. > >You don't understand, then. If you have already given away your work >for free, then no one can make money from it as-is, because it's >already available for free! To make money from it, someone must add >value -- and any money that person makes will be solely the result >of that added value. What's more, they'll probably have to add a LOT >of value to convince anyone not to go with the free version. That's >quite a handicap to start with already. > >Adding a "poison pill" is nothing but spite. > >--Brett Glass > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: RWMCGWIER@HOME.COM >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 07:50:32 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id HAA06608 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 07:50:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:48:57 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Eric S. Johansson" Subject: [ss] Re: twisting phil's arm. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112084414.00b206c0@harvee.billerica.ma.us> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 04:40 AM 11/12/1999 , you wrote: >Perhaps, we can now move onto more substantial topics like coercing Phil to >help us (TAPR) design an inexpensive and flexible hand-held 1.2 GHz >spread-spectrum radio. interesting idea. maybe they have an eval board we can start with. --- eric Eric S Johansson esj@inguide.com esj@harvee.billerica.ma.us This message was composed using NaturallySpeaking. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 09:59:25 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id JAA10578 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:59:23 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 08:56:18 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Cc: ss@lists.tapr.org In-Reply-To: <199911120841.AAA18570@servo.qualcomm.com> References: < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112081718.04566c10@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 12:41 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Phil Karn wrote: >Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on >GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. Interestingly, Richard Stallman and other GPL boosters have frequently called Red Hat "parasites." The fact, however, is that Red Hat's product is not software. It does not own the GPLed software and therefore cannot license or resell it. What it actually sells are tech support, plastic disks (primarily as a substitute for bandwidth), and warm fuzzies. (The fact that they are a company with a large market cap makes corporate folks feel more comfortable buying the product.) In short, they are selling everything BUT the software. And this is one of the biggest problems with the GPL: It undermines the livelihoods of programmers, while continuing to allow those who do not create the software -- the packagers, marketers, and managers -- to profit. Under a license which permits commercial reuse of the code, such as the MIT X or BSD license, the programmer can build upon what already exists and be properly compensated for his or her work. This is not true under the GPL, which attempts to force him or her to give away the work with no prospect whatsoever of adequate compensation. The GPL is an attempt to turn open source into a weapon against programmers' livelihoods. >My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in >writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of >others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer >projects. There are many reasons: > >1. Open source software benefits significantly from the increased >opportunity for others to find and fix bugs, add new features, and >port it to other platforms. You are confusing the GPL with "open source." In fact, the GPL does not conform to the accepted definition of an open source license (the "OSD") as posted at http://www.opensource.org/osd.html. Why? Because it discriminates against a field of endeavor: the creation, publication, and licensing of commercial software. Confusing the GPL with an open source license is a common mistake which, alas, the proponents of the GPL encourage. Linus Torvalds licensed Linux under the GPL primarily because he was unaware that other options existed and were better; he also did not, at the time, understand the full implications of the GPL. While Linus still advocates open source, he downplays the GPL (it's too late, alas, for him to change the licensing of Linux due to the GPL's lock-in and viral effects) and in fact balks at the anti-business attitudes of many of its supporters. There are many licenses other than the GPL which DO conform to the OSD and do not share the GPL's spiteful motivation and deleterious effects. >2. Opening your source code greatly increases its educational value to >the amateur community. Yes, open source is valuable. The GPL, however, does not merely destroy much of the value of open source -- it turns it into a vehicle for a destructive agenda. >3. Releasing code under the GPL, as opposed to just releasing it to >the public domain, appeals to a lot of authors (like me) who want to >help other hams but who don't want to be exploited by those who would >make some minor enhancement and take my work proprietary. "Taking the work proprietary" cannot be effectively done via a minor enhancement, because unless the enhancements have substantial value there will be no market for the enhanced product. If substantial enhancements ARE added, all of the market value of the enhanced product will stem from the enhancements, since the market value of the unenhanced product is necessarily zero (it is available for free). The use of open source to build a commercial product does not constitute "exploitation" any more than reducing the work of scientists and researchers to practice is "exploiting" them. The ability of engineers to build upon existing work rather than needlessly re-implementing the wheel is key to the advancement of the state of the art. A good example: the rise of the Internet is almost entirely due to the free availability of the Berkeley (BSD) TCP/IP stack, originally implemented within Berkeley UNIX. Had this code been released under the GPL, private companies would have had no incentive to adopt it. (The same is true of BIND and other key utilities which make the Internet work.) Absent the standardization provided by this key body of source code, the Internet and TCP/IP would not be ubiquitous, as they are today. The GPL throws a monkey wrench into the process by preventing programmers from building on one another's work. This causes less standardization and more balkanization. In addition, because programmers who seek to advance the state of the art must reimplement what has already been done, they start at a disadvantage. The result: creative work is hobbled -- for the sake of Richard Stallman's spite against those who seek to make even a modest living from their efforts. >And in a >group effort, having everyone agree to the GPL ahead of time assures >everyone that nobody will be in a position to exploit the work of the >others somewhere down the line. Nothing destroys the camaraderie of a >group of idealistic volunteers faster than money. The use of the GPL is not at all a precondition for cooperation in a group effort. The FreeBSD, OpenBSD, and NetBSD projects -- as well as BIND and Apache -- all allow anyone to make free use of the code. These open source projects are flourishing. Before one rubber-stamps the GPL onto one's code, it pays to stop and think. Do you really want to endorse the spiteful agenda of Richard Stallman, who crafted the GPL out of resentment when engineers sought to develop concepts developed in the MIT AI lab into useful products? Do you want to prevent code from being shared and re-used? Do you want to destroy markets and livelihoods? If you want to make a positive contribution to the programming community and the world of open source, do not choose the GPL, which does not even conform to the OSD (the generally accepted definition of open source). Instead, opt instead for the BSD license, the MIT X license, or a similar license that permits your colleagues to build on what you've done. You, in turn, will benefit from their work, and all will have an opportunity to benefit from their efforts. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 10:03:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id KAA10715 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:03:51 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 09:02:15 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112085721.045a1920@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 01:40 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Darnell Gadberry wrote: >I learned much about the inner-workings of TCP/IP from reading and analyzing >Phil's GPL'd code. Perhaps. But are you aware that, if you ever write a commercial product which involves TCP/IP, Richard Stallman's "Free Software Foundation" could claim that it was derivative of GPLed code and that you therefore had to give all of the source away for free? (This "tainting" effect is the reason why reverse engineering is usually done in a "clean room" environment.) >Without talented software engineers like Phil who are >willing to release their intellectual property into the public domain, I >seriously doubt that the Internet and general PC industry would have >achieved the incredible growth that we have witnessed over the past 6 - 10 >years. I think that releasing code into the public domain is wonderful -- as is releasing it under a true open source license. What is harmful is releasing the code under the GPL's "poison pill" license, whose purpose is to prevent programmers from building upon one another's work and making a living by doing so. The GPL's anti-business, anti-programmer provisions were motivated by spite and not at all by a spirit of cooperation and sharing. Many people are, alas, not aware of the long-term effects of the GPL nor of the motivation behind it. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 10:56:29 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id KAA13689 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:56:28 -0600 (CST) From: "Lyle Johnson" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:03:04 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 Importance: Normal In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <000201bf2d2f$c8ac2160$05fea8c0@prodlap.mmsi.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk I'm not a software guy, but I agree 100% with Phil on this one. It was the equivalent of this attitude that allowed TAPR to make a signficiant contribution to Amateur Radio back in the 80s with the TNC project(s). AEA made enough money from it all for Mike Lamb to retire, and many participants in those early efforts obtained excellent employment in part through their volunteer activities. > ... > My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in > writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of > others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer > projects. There are many reasons: > ... --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 11:51:51 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id LAA22792 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:51:49 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 10:47:46 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112103557.04552f00@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 10:03 AM 11/12/1999 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: >I'm not a software guy, but I agree 100% with Phil on this one. Phil's attitude that the sharing of code is good is correct, and I support it. However, by using the GPL on some of his code, he has actually prevented it from being shared. In the world of radio, standards are crucially important. Unfortunately, the GPL contains a "poison pill" which prevents commercial re-use of the code. For this reason, it deters standardization. Commercial equipment manufacturers cannot standardize on the publicly available code base; they must either re-engineer it (a process which is likely to introduce incompatibilities) or develop their own incompatible schemes. This serious problem can be prevented if a true open source license -- such as the BSD or MIT X license -- is used instead of the GPL. (As stated in an earlier message, the GPL does not meet the criteria for an open source license because it discriminates against any field of endeavor which involves the creation and licensing of commercial software. This includes not only software for personal computers but also embedded systems.) > It was the >equivalent of this attitude that allowed TAPR to make a signficiant >contribution to Amateur Radio back in the 80s with the TNC project(s). AEA >made enough money from it all for Mike Lamb to retire, and many participants >in those early efforts obtained excellent employment in part through their >volunteer activities. In that case, you should advocate the use of true open source licenses, rather than the GPL, by those who contribute to the development of amateur radio software. --Brett --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 12:47:38 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id MAA25143 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:47:37 -0600 (CST) Errors-To: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:48:01 -0500 From: Jeff King Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" CC: Lyle Johnson , Brett Glass , Darnell Gadberry Subject: [ss] GPL no good for small businesses (was re: Coding to beat turbo codes) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382C60E1.AA869A77@aerodata.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk I'll keep this brief as I can. Phil Karn wrote: > >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," > >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > > Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on > GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. Red Hat is a publishing company. Its not a fair comparison to what Brett was referring to. > My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in > writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of > others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer > projects. There are many reasons: Not picking on you Phil, but the GPL folks always try to pull this off topic to suite their agenda. Brett was not talking about volunteer use if you check his original message. He was referring to use by for profit businesses. Your examples re-affirm what Brett was saying about the GPL and its "poison pill" for use by for profit businesses. Certainly a GPL's authors choice, but lets call it what it is. -Jeff Brett Glass stated: >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey wrenching," >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > >--Brett --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:10:15 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA26334 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:10:13 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [195.121.6.105] From: "Hamoperator SM7UGT Marcel bos" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: GPL no good for small businesses (was re: Coding to beat turbo codes) Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:08:52 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991112190853.10575.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Sorry this is wayout of topic but: The computer age turned for a new way to watch on the word economy. What we create on them today is a emulation on past years, trying to learn them economic rules. The technology itself has edvidence that it can work in an anarchy and so will also the echonomy develop in the future. What shall we live on? - how shall we pay our houses.. And Giving the children something to play with. That qestion bathers alot I know, maybe with - something else - something we havn't thougt on. A qestion that realy escalates is that each one of us has a given time, and soner or later one will end up with a black stone. My dear friend: what counts? And who do we make a solotion to find as much time as possbile for ourselfs.. And this - in a time when we hunt it - because we need it - because we must earn acording to the old system money.. because someone else realy needs em, in third and sexth person realy needs em. My qestion is: how can the sun burn hard without getting paid? The sun and windpower Idea drives me in qestions how to invent systems where money dosn't exist and aren't needed. I create because I love to create - thats my reason. And i am not thinking about money this money that. I just want to be with in my creative flow.. >From: Jeff King >Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >CC: Lyle Johnson , Brett Glass , >Darnell Gadberry >Subject: [ss] GPL no good for small businesses (was re: Coding to beat >turbo codes) >Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:48:01 -0500 >MIME-Version: 1.0 >From bounce-ss-4919@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 10:47:02 1999 >Return-Path: >Errors-To: >Message-ID: > >Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. >X-Accept-Language: en >References: > >List-Unsubscribe: >List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 >List-Subscribe: >List-Owner: >X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio >X-Message-Id: <382C60E1.AA869A77@aerodata.net> >Sender: bounce-ss-4919@lists.tapr.org >Precedence: bulk > >I'll keep this brief as I can. > >Phil Karn wrote: > > > >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey >wrenching," > > >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > > > > Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on > > GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. > >Red Hat is a publishing company. Its not a fair comparison to what Brett >was referring to. > > > My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in > > writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of > > others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer > > projects. There are many reasons: > >Not picking on you Phil, but the GPL folks always try to pull this off >topic to suite their agenda. Brett was not talking about volunteer >use if you check his original message. He was referring to use by >for profit businesses. > >Your examples re-affirm what Brett was saying about the GPL >and its "poison pill" for use by for profit businesses. Certainly >a GPL's authors choice, but lets call it what it is. > >-Jeff > >Brett Glass stated: > > >The matter goes beyond politics, by the way. The GPL is "monkey >wrenching," > >plain and simple -- an attempt to sabotage businesses. > > > >--Brett > > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: SM1UGT@HOTMAIL.COM >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:17:56 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA26794 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:17:55 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Darnell Gadberry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: GPL no good for small businesses Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:12:50 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Everyone please repeat after me: Radio, radio, radio, radio. The GPL issue is clearly a major hot-button for a number of TAPR members. Rather than continuing to degrade that already low S/N ratio of this list with further religious wars about a topic that NONE OF US WILL BE ABLE TO RESOLVE in this forum. Let's put the GPL issue to bed or better yet, convince Greg (WD5IVD) to create another list where the discussion of the GLP topic can be continued by those who are (rightfully) passionate about their positions. So, has anyone looked at the Bluetooth (http://www.bluetooth.com) specification for wireless devices and assessed its applicability to Amateur applications? - darnell --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:39:08 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA27607 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:38:59 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:34:25 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] TAPR and GPL In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112122633.00abbcd0@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 11:12 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Darnell Gadberry wrote: >Everyone please repeat after me: > > Radio, radio, radio, radio. > >The GPL issue is clearly a major hot-button for a number of TAPR members. >Rather than continuing to degrade that already low S/N ratio of this list >with further religious wars about a topic that NONE OF US WILL BE ABLE TO >RESOLVE in this forum. Actually, there is something that could be done here which would enhance the effectiveness of amateur radio software projects and encourage standardization. TAPR should take a formal stance in favor of using open source licensing (that is, the MIT X license or the BSD license -- NOT the GPL) for the output of collaborative amateur radio software projects. By doing so, it would ensure that commercial equipment which embodies the pioneering work done in these projects would be readily available, and also that manufacturers would not be forced, by restrictive licenses, to create incompatible hardware. Since the development of standards is important, and not every ham builds all of his or her own equipment from scratch, such a policy would have very positive effects. I'd like to see the members of this forum endorse such a policy and bring it up for formal adoption by the group. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:45:06 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA27742 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:45:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Lyle Johnson" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:51:36 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <000301bf2d47$53d41880$07fea8c0@prodlap.mmsi.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Bret, I am neither for or against GPL. I am for open-ness and sharing. This is the wrong place to have a discussion on the merits of the GPL, IMHO. Lyle > In that case, you should advocate the use of true open source > licenses, rather > than the GPL, by those who contribute to the development of amateur radio > software. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:46:29 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA27802 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:46:29 -0600 (CST) From: "Lyle Johnson" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:52:52 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <000601bf2d47$81349ca0$07fea8c0@prodlap.mmsi.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk wrong forum. > I'd like to see the members of this forum endorse such a policy and bring > it up for formal adoption by the group. > > --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 13:48:54 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA27935 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:48:48 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Darnell Gadberry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 11:43:17 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Bret, Why don't you draft a resolution on your GPL stance, create a web site that FAIRLY discusses the pros and cons of both sides of the issue and proposes suggestions for how TAPR should (if appropriate) stand on this issue? You could then draft a position paper which TAPR could submit to the membership for consideration. Let the membership decide if we should take an organizational stance on the GPL issue. I would be willing to donate the web space, discussion forums and access to my listserv to you or any other TAPR member who has legitimate isssues to discuss of relevance to the Amateur Radio community. - darnell -----Original Message----- From: bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org [mailto:bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org]On Behalf Of Brett Glass Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 11:34 AM To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Subject: [ss] TAPR and GPL At 11:12 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Darnell Gadberry wrote: >Everyone please repeat after me: > > Radio, radio, radio, radio. > >The GPL issue is clearly a major hot-button for a number of TAPR members. >Rather than continuing to degrade that already low S/N ratio of this list >with further religious wars about a topic that NONE OF US WILL BE ABLE TO >RESOLVE in this forum. Actually, there is something that could be done here which would enhance the effectiveness of amateur radio software projects and encourage standardization. TAPR should take a formal stance in favor of using open source licensing (that is, the MIT X license or the BSD license -- NOT the GPL) for the output of collaborative amateur radio software projects. By doing so, it would ensure that commercial equipment which embodies the pioneering work done in these projects would be readily available, and also that manufacturers would not be forced, by restrictive licenses, to create incompatible hardware. Since the development of standards is important, and not every ham builds all of his or her own equipment from scratch, such a policy would have very positive effects. I'd like to see the members of this forum endorse such a policy and bring it up for formal adoption by the group. --Brett Glass --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: DARNELL@BINMEDIA.COM To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 14:08:38 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA29024 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:08:38 -0600 (CST) Errors-To: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:08:52 -0500 From: Jeff King Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: GPL no good for small businesses References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382C73D3.AAEFF31B@aerodata.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Darnell Gadberry wrote: > Everyone please repeat after me: > > Radio, radio, radio, radio. Maybe 30 years ago. Now its Radio, radio, radio & Software, software for narrowband gear and Radio, radio, radio & Software, software, software, software for SS gear. So like it or not, SOFTWARE is an issue on a Spread Spectrum designers plate. -Jeff --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 14:13:38 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA29169 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:13:37 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Darnell Gadberry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: GPL no good for small businesses Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:07:59 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Fair Enough. But, how do we move this discussion onto issues of actually creating software. I would be THRILLED to participate in an intellectually stimulating discussion about creating software for Amateur Radio Applications. - darnell -----Original Message----- From: bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org [mailto:bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org]On Behalf Of Jeff King Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 12:09 PM To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Subject: [ss] RE: GPL no good for small businesses Darnell Gadberry wrote: > Everyone please repeat after me: > > Radio, radio, radio, radio. Maybe 30 years ago. Now its Radio, radio, radio & Software, software for narrowband gear and Radio, radio, radio & Software, software, software, software for SS gear. So like it or not, SOFTWARE is an issue on a Spread Spectrum designers plate. -Jeff --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: DARNELL@BINMEDIA.COM To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 14:15:18 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA29271 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:15:17 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: brett@localhost Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 13:13:31 -0700 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Brett Glass Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.2.0.58.19991112131218.045a72b0@localhost> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 12:52 PM 11/12/1999 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: >wrong forum. Is it really? I don't think so. Spread spectrum and packet radio are the two primary areas in which hams are collaboratively developing software. --Brett --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 14:24:26 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA29620 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:24:25 -0600 (CST) Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: "Darnell Gadberry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 12:18:47 -0800 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 In-Reply-To: List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk So let's talk more about developing software for Amateur Radio and less about whether or not we should be distributing under the GPL. - darnell -----Original Message----- From: bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org [mailto:bounce-ss-4827@lists.tapr.org]On Behalf Of Brett Glass Sent: Friday, November 12, 1999 12:14 PM To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL At 12:52 PM 11/12/1999 -0700, Lyle Johnson wrote: >wrong forum. Is it really? I don't think so. Spread spectrum and packet radio are the two primary areas in which hams are collaboratively developing software. --Brett --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: DARNELL@BINMEDIA.COM To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 14:41:01 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA00350 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:40:55 -0600 (CST) Errors-To: Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 15:40:37 -0500 From: Jeff King Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: TAPR and GPL and SS radio References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382C7B45.AF3AC07F@aerodata.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Lyle: I happen to agree with Brett. And also would like you and others to consider some things here. Lyle Johnson wrote: > wrong forum. Maybe not. Lets explore this a bit more. TAPR has been funding a SS radio project, which a large part of it, incorporates SOFTWARE. Recently, we learned that TAPR had signed some sort of agreement with the "Dandin Group" to take the TAPR SS radio into production. This agreement is not available to TAPR membership. No information, that I could find, is available on the "Dandin Group". We simply don't know. See: http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/Ftaprfhss.html Lyle Johnson wrote: >I'm not a software guy, but I agree 100% with Phil on this one. It was the >equivalent of this attitude that allowed TAPR to make a significant >contribution to Amateur Radio back in the 80s with the TNC project(s). AEA >made enough money from it all for Mike Lamb to retire, and many participants >in those early efforts obtained excellent employment in part through their >volunteer activities. But do we *know* TAPR has the same attitude now towards the SS radio as they did towards the TNC2? From what little I can deduce, this is *NOT* the same attitude at all as TAPR displayed in the 1980's. In the 1980's, TAPR made available both the TNC1 and TNC2 designs to *anyone* that would pay the licensing fee. This allowed competition in the open marketplace, and indeed, jump-started the packet revolution. Some TNC2 makers succeeded (PacComm, MFJ) while others fell by the wayside (GLB, DRSI). TAPR gave no-one any advantage and let the marketplace decide who would fail and who would succeed. This was brilliant on TAPR's part and those who were part of this decision should be commended. Now, from what little we see, TAPR has assigned exclusive rights to Dandin for the SS radio. Dandin will market to the amateur community through TAPR. Do we know who Dandin is? If Dandin fails, will some other manufacturer step in and pick up the slack? Will competition with other TAPR SS radio manufacturers force Dandin to make the product at a competitive price? We just don't know. So Lyle, I think Brett's suggestion, is very relevant for this group to consider, in particular for the SS radio. That is: Brett Glass said: >TAPR should take a formal stance in favor of using open source licensing >(that is, the MIT X license or the BSD license -- NOT the GPL) for >the output of collaborative amateur radio software projects. By doing so, >it would ensure that commercial equipment which embodies the pioneering work >done in these projects would be readily available, and also that manufacturers >would not be forced, by restrictive licenses, to create incompatible hardware. >Since the development of standards is important, and not every ham builds all >of his or her own equipment from scratch, such a policy would have very >positive effects. Not having much information on the "Dandin deal" (and yes, I did ask), I fear this may not be the success story the TNC2 was. Regards, Jeff --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 16:06:14 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id QAA03688 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:06:12 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: X-Sender: rwmcgwier@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 17:04:35 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" From: Robert McGwier Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. In-Reply-To: References: <199911120841.AAA18570@servo.qualcomm.com> < Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <4.1.19991112170206.0094a4f0@mail.ewndsr1.nj.home.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk At 08:56 AM 11/12/1999 -0700, you wrote: >At 12:41 AM 11/12/1999 -0800, Phil Karn wrote: > >>Well, Red Hat is just one business among many that seems to thrive on >>GPL software quite nicely, thank you very much. > >Interestingly, Richard Stallman and other GPL boosters have frequently >called Red Hat "parasites." > >The fact, however, is that Red Hat's product is not software. It does >not own the GPLed software and therefore cannot license or resell it. >What it actually sells are tech support, plastic disks (primarily as >a substitute for bandwidth), and warm fuzzies. (The fact that they are >a company with a large market cap makes corporate folks feel more >comfortable buying the product.) > >In short, they are selling everything BUT the software. > >And this is one of the biggest problems with the GPL: It undermines >the livelihoods of programmers, while continuing to allow those >who do not create the software -- the packagers, marketers, and >managers -- to profit. > > WHY am I joining this? This is off topic and not appropriate for this forum but . . . the last paragraph quoted here, especially as is related to Red Hat is demonstrably false. The Red Hat Laboratories does a LARGE amount of development for things associated with Linux and the Red Hat distribution (Gnome for example) and they give it away under GPL. PLEASE move this to an appropriate forum. Bob --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 16:43:53 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id QAA05230 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 16:43:51 -0600 (CST) To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Cc: ss@lists.tapr.org Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 14:42:34 -0800 Subject: [ss] [ss]900 Mhz Webgear on Antennas Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Juno-Line-Breaks: 1,3-10 X-Juno-Att: 0 X-Juno-RefParts: 0 From: Tim Vaughn List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991112.144239.-486329.2.tv@juno.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk What would happen if you took a couple of the 900 Mhz. Webgear spread-spectrum cards (USB or parallel port) and connected them them to loop yagiis with 15 dB on each end ? Could you go 10 miles ???? I know it is probably illegal or something, but just suppose...... Tim ( tv@juno.com ) --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Fri Nov 12 21:50:46 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id VAA14150 for ; Fri, 12 Nov 1999 21:50:41 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: Date: Fri, 12 Nov 1999 22:47:30 -0500 From: Roland Burgan X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: Coding to beat turbo codes. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382CDF51.F2FD7B7C@up.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk I'm afraid this is going to be another tech group that is more want-to-be, than know anything. Sad, the good groups get fewer. Lyle Johnson wrote: > I'm not a software guy, but I agree 100% with Phil on this one. It was the > equivalent of this attitude that allowed TAPR to make a signficiant > contribution to Amateur Radio back in the 80s with the TNC project(s). AEA > made enough money from it all for Mike Lamb to retire, and many participants > in those early efforts obtained excellent employment in part through their > volunteer activities. > > > ... > > My opinion, based on a decade and a half of personal experience in > > writing software for amateur users, and in watching the experience of > > others, is that the GPL is the *only* way to go for such volunteer > > projects. There are many reasons: > > ... > > --- > You are currently subscribed to ss as: rburgan@up.net > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Sat Nov 13 01:37:54 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id BAA27095 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 01:37:54 -0600 (CST) From: "Lyle Johnson" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] bye! Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 00:44:41 -0700 Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 (Normal) X-MSMail-Priority: Normal In-Reply-To: Importance: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <000701bf2daa$f217cec0$05fea8c0@prodlap.mmsi.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk This whole thing is getting tiresome, so I have just unsubscribed. 73, Lyle --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Sat Nov 13 03:22:44 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id DAA28698 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 03:22:43 -0600 (CST) Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 04:20:33 -0500 From: Rethnakaran P Organization: Synopsys India X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] digital matched filter Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382D2D60.3B63BBF1@synopsys.com> Precedence: bulk hi, Can some one throw some details on the digital matched filter used for despreading in spread spectrum. What are the issues in the design of a digital matched filter, is there any novel scheme in which a digital matched filter with superior performance can be achieved. quantitatively how many multiplication and addition are there in a typical matched filter despreader.is the acquisition time and the spreadfactor are the only constraint in the digital matched filter. Infact i have a lot of uncertainities about this digital matched filter. could any of you come forward helping me in rectifying the doubts.is there a fully programmable DMF(digital matched filter) available in the market? if any of you have some papers or journals ,i would be greatful to see it and grab. Once again i thank you all and i appreciate your valuable time spending towards my cause and i would be greatful to you for that ratna -- ################################################ Up from Earth's centre through the Seventh Gate I rose, and on the throne of Saturn sate, And many knots unravel'd by the road; But not the knot of human death and fate. --Omar Khayyam ################################################## --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Sat Nov 13 20:37:30 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id UAA03691 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:37:30 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: bobbie Johnson To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] RE: bye! Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:20:22 -0500 Organization: Anson Technologies Encoding: 21 TEXT List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <01BF2E1F.59419F80.bobbiej@vnet.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk This group has just lost one of its most gifted and devoted members. Please stop the crap before we loose the few remaining people that know what they are doing. Bobbie KD4LV -----Original Message----- From: Lyle Johnson [SMTP:johnson@mmsi.com] Sent: Saturday, November 13, 1999 2:45 AM To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Subject: [ss] bye! This whole thing is getting tiresome, so I have just unsubscribed. 73, Lyle --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: BOBBIEJ@VNET.NET To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Sat Nov 13 20:55:36 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id UAA04243 for ; Sat, 13 Nov 1999 20:55:33 -0600 (CST) Errors-To: Message-ID: Date: Sat, 13 Nov 1999 21:52:58 -0500 From: Jeff King Organization: Aero Data Systems, Inc. X-Accept-Language: en MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] The Dandin Group Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <382E240A.71345BCC@aerodata.net> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk As you may know, TAPR recently negotiated a deal with the Dandin Group to finish and produce the spread spectrum radio. TAPR would be able to sell through to the amateur market where as Dandin would sell to the commercial market. See: http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/Ftaprfhss.html I finally found some information on the Dandin Group company, and thought I would pass it along, as I'm sure others may be interested. Look at http://www.dandin.com/group.html for some familiar names as well as http://www.dandin.com for more information on the Dandin Group. 73 Jeff http://www.dandin.com/group.html --------- About the Group: As an innovative leader in wireless internet access, the Dandin Group continues to push the technology to the new levels. We are dedicated to the belief that broadband wireless technology, particularly ultra wideband (UWB), is the best prospect for connecting the world and fulfilling the promise of the Internet. About our Tag Line: Wire free.. ..Internet bound! This restates our wireless commitment to and through the Internet. About our people: Dandin continues to attract some of the most talented visionaries in the field of wireless technology to complement its team. Our people represent a broad range of experience in the communications industry ranging from packet radio, microwave technologies and artificial intelligence, to membership on the FCC's Technical Advisory Council. All team members have prior experience in launching profitable new ventures. Current members of note include: Dewayne Hendricks, Greg Jones, Stephen Ludvik, and Stephen Purcell. About our name: The original idea for the name Dandin came from the Redwall series of stories written by Brian Jacques. In these stories Dandin is a hero mouse. He is a peaceful, unassuming character who always rises to the occasion and comes to the aid of those in need. We thought this was a fitting role model! Other reference sources of the name include the lead character in the play "George Dandin" by Moliere, and "dandin" is the name of a dark pink variety of a Denziegner series New Guinea impatiens plant. About our mascot: Dani, a dolphin, is our mascot. Unsurpassed in intelligent communications using broadband frequency waves, dolphins represent the level of service we want to provide! Besides, we wanted a fun logo to put on our hats and t-shirts! --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 15 08:40:59 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id IAA07638 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:40:59 -0600 (CST) Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 08:38:05 -0600 From: Jeffrey Austen Subject: [ss] Re: digital matched filter X-Sender: jausten@gemini.tntech.edu To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Rethnakaran P writes: >Can some one throw some details on the digital matched filter used >for despreading in spread spectrum. What are the issues in the design >of a digital matched filter, .... Traditionally, a correlator has been used for despreading. However if the spreading code is relatively short, such as in the 802.11 systems, a matched filter can also be used. The limiting factor is the relative frequency error between the transmitter and receiver code generators; this becomes more critical as the length of the code sequence increases. Given the availability of precise frequency control and the (relative) ease and low cost of putting a design into VLSI I expect that the matched filter structure will become more common. An excellent spread spectrum reference is "Introduction to Spread Spectrum Communications" by Peterson, Ziemer and Borth. Jeff, k9ja --- Jeffrey Austen | Tennessee Technological University jausten@tntech.edu | Box 5004 +1-931-372-3485 | Cookeville Tennessee 38505 U.S.A. --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 15 12:06:19 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id MAA14285 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:06:18 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "Vazquez, Miguel" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] It's enough... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:00:47 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk I really understand that software and telecommunications hardware are working closer, but as I;m concern THIS is a forum for discuss Spread Spectrum platforms, devices and applications, NOT software legalities, or personal choices in using GPL *(whats that anyway??). Excuse me, that's my personal oppinion... --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Mon Nov 15 14:11:17 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id OAA18910 for ; Mon, 15 Nov 1999 14:11:16 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "R. Curry" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" References: Subject: [ss] Re: It's enough... Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:07:14 -0800 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V5.00.2314.1300 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <001501bf2fa5$02c46d40$4c01a8c0@curry.org> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Me too. Too many religous zealots clogging my inbox. I'll check back sometime in the future when maybe the discussion goes back to technology and SS. For now unsubscribing.... 73's Ron Curry ke6wed ----- Original Message ----- From: Vazquez, Miguel To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Sent: Monday, November 15, 1999 10:00 AM Subject: [ss] It's enough... > I really understand that software and telecommunications hardware are > working closer, but as I;m concern THIS is a forum for discuss Spread > Spectrum platforms, devices and applications, NOT software legalities, or > personal choices in using GPL *(whats that anyway??). > Excuse me, that's my personal oppinion... > > > --- > You are currently subscribed to ss as: recurry@curry.org > To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Tue Nov 16 08:14:02 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id IAA05296 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 08:14:01 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: X-Originating-IP: [195.24.192.101] From: "valantine nyenty" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: It's enough... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:12:50 PST Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <19991116141251.5734.qmail@hotmail.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk More to that, When ever a novice comes in and asks for fondamental information on spread spectrum systems, NO ONE CARES TO ANSWER HIM . This shows that YOU ARE ALL VERY VERY VERY SELFISH AND NOT FIT TO ENTER THE NEW MILLENIUM. TRY AND HELP THE YOUNGER ONES WITH TECHNICAL FUNDAMENTAL INFORMATION ON SPREAD SPECTRUM SYSTEMS DESIGN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! LET those who have eyes READ!!!!!! >From: "Vazquez, Miguel" >Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" >Subject: [ss] It's enough... >Date: Mon, 15 Nov 1999 12:00:47 -0600 > >I really understand that software and telecommunications hardware are >working closer, but as I;m concern THIS is a forum for discuss Spread >Spectrum platforms, devices and applications, NOT software legalities, or >personal choices in using GPL *(whats that anyway??). >Excuse me, that's my personal oppinion... > > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: vnchemty@hotmail.com >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Tue Nov 16 13:12:55 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id NAA14820 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 13:12:55 -0600 (CST) From: Jake Brodsky To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: It's enough... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 14:10:10 -0500 Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Message-ID: References: In-Reply-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio X-Message-Id: <1KkxOJzkcxr=JkJTSrGeVSNN9TYt@4ax.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by tapr.org id NAA14820 On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:12:50 PST, you wrote: >More to that, When ever a novice comes in and asks for fondamental >information on spread spectrum systems, NO ONE CARES TO ANSWER HIM . This >shows that YOU ARE ALL VERY VERY VERY SELFISH AND NOT FIT TO ENTER THE NEW >MILLENIUM. >TRY AND HELP THE YOUNGER ONES WITH TECHNICAL FUNDAMENTAL INFORMATION ON >SPREAD SPECTRUM SYSTEMS DESIGN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! To a point, most on this list will. However, spread spectrum is a complex topic in and of itself. If a newbie comes in and asks a very broad question, I have no desire to type in a dissertation on the subject. This forum is for those who are attempting to help themselves. It is not an online tutorial for those who are too cheap to buy a book and take the time to read it. Jake Brodsky, mailto:frussle@erols.com "Nearly fifty percent of all graduates came from the bottom half of the class." --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org From bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Tue Nov 16 15:49:14 1999 Received: from lists.tapr.org (lists.tapr.org [204.17.217.24]) by tapr.org (8.9.3/8.9.3/1.13) with SMTP id PAA20703 for ; Tue, 16 Nov 1999 15:49:14 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: From: "James T. McCartney III" To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" Subject: [ss] Re: It's enough... Date: Tue, 16 Nov 1999 16:43:18 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3612.1700 List-Unsubscribe: List-Software: Lyris Server version 3.0 List-Subscribe: List-Owner: X-List-Host: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Reply-To: "TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group" X-Message-Id: <002201bf307b$ac12ff20$3b9506d1@laptoy.skd.com> Sender: bounce-ss-6751@lists.tapr.org Precedence: bulk OK, this thread has compelled me to finally post. Yes, the number of newbies that come in and ask "what is ss?" does become tiring. Maybe a FAQ is in order or a canned response to the FAQ that already exists. That is certainly not too much. As to the point of being too cheap to buy a book and read it, I have to respond which one. The number of books about DSP is large. Many of the GOOD ones (Oppenhiem, Schafer, Proakis, McClellen, Hamming etc.) are now unfortunately out of print. Most all assume that you have a grounded background in signals and are adding discrete time on top of the analog cases. And yes, I did buy them... Certainly most assume that you have already had the analog filters courses and almost none that I have found discuss the practical applications and present them in an algorithmic format. Most don't even explain the physics of the math they present - just numbers and mathematical wizardry to prove the value of the author to his department. Yes, it's just software... but that's like saying the NOAA metrologic codes or STRUDL structural codes are just software... without the background to understanding them, it means nothing. The thing that is missing is the equivalent of the Rosetta stone. There is no cookbooks that enable the newbie to get started, no worked examples to study and understand things like simple de/modulator techniques, filtering, etc without 2 years of undergrad EE background to get started. In ancient times, ACM has their collection of algorithms. DSP to my knowledge never has had this luxury. Either the work was done for special customers and thus unavailable, or was held close to the vest for fear that one might compromise their competitive advantage. Too bad, the result is good engineers who want to learn being shut out by those to insecure of their talent to help them. I, too, grow weary of this noise... good bye James McCartney -----Original Message----- From: Jake Brodsky To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Special Interest Group Date: Tuesday, November 16, 1999 2:12 PM Subject: [ss] Re: It's enough... >On Tue, 16 Nov 1999 06:12:50 PST, you wrote: > >>More to that, When ever a novice comes in and asks for fondamental >>information on spread spectrum systems, NO ONE CARES TO ANSWER HIM . This >>shows that YOU ARE ALL VERY VERY VERY SELFISH AND NOT FIT TO ENTER THE NEW >>MILLENIUM. >>TRY AND HELP THE YOUNGER ONES WITH TECHNICAL FUNDAMENTAL INFORMATION ON >>SPREAD SPECTRUM SYSTEMS DESIGN.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > >To a point, most on this list will. However, spread spectrum is a >complex topic in and of itself. If a newbie comes in and asks a very >broad question, I have no desire to type in a dissertation on the >subject. > >This forum is for those who are attempting to help themselves. It is >not an online tutorial for those who are too cheap to buy a book and >take the time to read it. > >Jake Brodsky, mailto:frussle@erols.com >"Nearly fifty percent of all graduates came from >the bottom half of the class." > >--- >You are currently subscribed to ss as: JTM@SKD.COM >To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org > --- You are currently subscribed to ss as: lyris.ss@tapr.org To unsubscribe send a blank email to leave-ss-6751T@lists.tapr.org