From dbutter@ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 07 02:32:13 1998 Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA18555 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:32:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id CAA02442 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 02:31:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from sbo-ca8-25.ix.netcom.com(207.223.165.89) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma002440; Sat Nov 7 02:31:17 1998 Message-ID: <3643D9B4.F7105D87@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 00:25:08 -0500 From: Devin Butterfield Organization: Butterfield Sound Studio X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Questions about SS experimentation. Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Greetings, I am an Electrical Engineering student at California State Polytechnic University and have also been a Ham for just under 10 years. For more than half that time I have been fascinated with Spread Spectrum communication systems and have been studying the theory for several years now. I am interested in working on a radio design and experimenting with Spread Spectrum, and am wondering if anybody who has already had some experience with the hands on design of a spread spectrum radio could give me some advice or pointers to get me started. I’ll try to keep this short and specific: 1. Can anyone recommend a good book or reference on spread spectrum radio design (Not SS theory—I already have loads of that. :) )? 2. For starters, I am interested in working with some of the part 15 chips that are available, but I am wondering if anyone might suggest one that is highly integrated and easy to work with (can be FHSS or DSSS)? 3. I am aware that most of the part 15 SS chips as well as many other digital devices are tiny surface mount packages (which I don’t have much experience with!). Does anyone have any advice for cost effective prototyping with these devices? Are there special sockets available or am I better off making up a PCB for every prototype? Also, does anyone know of any company or other source to make up surface mount PCBs for a reasonable price? 4. Any and all other advice or tips that anyone might be kind enough to share. :) Sorry for so many questions but there are very few sources of info on this subject, and TAPR is obviously on the cutting edge. Please, any help or advice you can share is much appreciated! Thanks in advance! -- Devin Butterfield KD6DRS From matthias@penthouse.boerde.de Sat Nov 07 08:00:48 1998 Received: from relay.Boerde.DE (root@mkdir.boerde.de [193.175.28.19]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA04599 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 08:00:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from penthouse by relay.Boerde.DE with uucp id m0zc8uN-000ORPC (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 15:00:07 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost by penthouse.boerde.de via sendmail with esmtp id for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:40:42 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Nov-18) Date: Sat, 7 Nov 1998 14:40:41 +0100 (MET) From: Matthias Weingart To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:123] Questions about SS experimentation. In-Reply-To: <3643D9B4.F7105D87@ix.netcom.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8BIT Hi Devin, I have been fascinated with SS too. We are experimenting with commercial products in the ISM-band (WL2420 of ZCOM -> 25km distance with just 50mW and 24dBi antennas :-), but I would like to make my own SS-tranceiver ... 2. Would you please post your list of the 15 SS chips? I think you can get a complete prototype set from Harris for their chips (the 2,4GHz one's). 3. I would not not recommended to use sockets with high frequencies - a PCB would be better - but I made some "free air wired" proto's with SMD's :-) www.pcb-pool.com makes cheap but professional prototype PCB's (100,-DM ($60?) for a 160x100mm board) - but is a european service I think. 73, DG6MMT , Matthias On Sat, 7 Nov 1998, Devin Butterfield wrote: > Greetings, > > I am an Electrical Engineering student at > California State Polytechnic University and have > also been a Ham for just under 10 years. For more > than half that time I have been fascinated with > Spread Spectrum communication systems and have > been studying the theory for several years now. I > am interested in working on a radio design and > experimenting with Spread Spectrum, and am > wondering if anybody who has already had some > experience with the hands on design of a spread > spectrum radio could give me some advice or > pointers to get me started. I’ll try to keep this > short and specific: > > 1. Can anyone recommend a good book or reference > on spread spectrum radio design (Not SS theory—I > already have loads of that. :) )? > > 2. For starters, I am interested in working with > some of the part 15 chips that are available, but > I am wondering if anyone might suggest one that is > highly integrated and easy to work with (can be > FHSS or DSSS)? > > 3. I am aware that most of the part 15 SS chips as > well as many other digital devices are tiny > surface mount packages (which I don’t have much > experience with!). Does anyone have any advice for > cost effective prototyping with these devices? Are > there special sockets available or am I better off > making up a PCB for every prototype? Also, does > anyone know of any company or other source to make > up surface mount PCBs for a reasonable price? > > 4. Any and all other advice or tips that anyone > might be kind enough to share. :) > > Sorry for so many questions but there are very few > sources of info on this subject, and TAPR is > obviously on the cutting edge. > Please, any help or advice you can share is much > appreciated! > Thanks in advance! > -- > Devin Butterfield > KD6DRS > > > From dbutter@ix.netcom.com Sat Nov 07 16:09:56 1998 Received: from dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.9]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA20257 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:09:55 -0600 (CST) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id QAA17719 for ; Sat, 7 Nov 1998 16:09:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from sbo-ca8-28.ix.netcom.com(207.223.165.92) by dfw-ix9.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id rma017696; Sat Nov 7 16:08:49 1998 Message-ID: <36449950.A9FC5DA@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 14:02:41 -0500 From: Devin Butterfield Organization: Butterfield Sound Studio X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.04 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:124] Re: Questions about SS experimentation. References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Matthias, Thanks for your response! Actually, I didn't mean that I have a list of 15 devices--I meant that I was interested in first experimenting with "Part-15" devices. He he he! :) Anyway the only devices I am familiar with are the Harris chips and the AMI Waveplex chips (although I heard that these are no longer available?). Thank you for your help! Regards, Devin Butterfield KD6DRS Matthias Weingart wrote: > Hi Devin, > > I have been fascinated with SS too. We are experimenting with commercial > products in the ISM-band (WL2420 of ZCOM -> 25km distance with just 50mW > and 24dBi antennas :-), but I would like to make my own SS-tranceiver ... > > 2. Would you please post your list of the 15 SS chips? I think you can get > a complete prototype set from Harris for their chips (the 2,4GHz one's). > > 3. I would not not recommended to use sockets with high frequencies - a > PCB would be better - but I made some "free air wired" proto's with SMD's > :-) www.pcb-pool.com makes cheap but professional prototype PCB's (100,-DM > ($60?) for a 160x100mm board) - but is a european service I think. > > 73, > DG6MMT , Matthias > From kn6td@clubnet.net Sun Nov 08 01:46:52 1998 Received: from mail.clubnet.net (www.showbizvideo.com [206.126.129.100]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id BAA27812 for ; Sun, 8 Nov 1998 01:46:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from djl_portable (206.126.139.16) by mail.clubnet.net with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Sat, 7 Nov 1998 23:47:09 -0800 Message-Id: X-Sender: KN6TD@mail.clubnet.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0 Date: Sat, 07 Nov 1998 22:14:59 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Derek J. Lassen" Subject: Re: [SS:123] Questions about SS experimentation. In-Reply-To: <3643D9B4.F7105D87@ix.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I would take a look at the z2000 from Zilog / Stanford Telecom. It does full duplex binary to DSSS at up to 11 megachips /second. You need a D/A on the output and an A/D on the input (2 A/Ds at faster rates). And Maxim has a chipset refered to as "RF to Bits" - the up and down converters, I and Q A/D, and Local Osc. Just add the D/A. Motorola make a PLL that has a charge pump and driver amplifier to give an 0 to 30 volt swing for the L.O. varactor. Mini circuits has ams, mixers, etc at prices that can't be beat. You'll also need an audio codec and antialias filters. A mic pre amp and speaker power am (National) are in there too. Brains - it'll need a processsor. Maybe the intel 386ex, the Zilog z182 or the Motorola 68360. The 68360 would allow you to have 2 audio channels and 2 async data channels and 1 sync data channel. You should also take a look at the Prisim chipset if you haven't yet. Hope this helps you get started... 73 Derek, KN6TD From mac@Wireless.Com Tue Nov 10 00:54:31 1998 Received: from culver.net (mac@[206.79.230.38]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA09726 for ; Tue, 10 Nov 1998 00:54:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (mac@localhost) by culver.net (8.9.0/8.9.0) with SMTP id WAA01091; Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:53:14 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 9 Nov 1998 22:53:13 -0800 (PST) From: Mike Cheponis X-Sender: mac@culver.net To: ss@tapr.org Subject: PANSAT Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I hadn't see this on this list yet, but PANSAT (the Petite Amateur Navy Satellite) was launched from Space Shuttle Discovery (STS-95) on 30 Oct 98. It is the world's first ham Spread Spectrum satellite. http://www.sp.nps.navy.mil/pansat/ -Mike K3MC From epaolin@mail5.clio.it Wed Nov 11 02:26:09 1998 Received: from mail.clio.it ([195.60.128.101]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA23824 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 02:26:06 -0600 (CST) Received: from epaolin.clio.it (195.60.144.13) by mail.clio.it with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.1); Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:34:34 +0100 X-Sender: epaolin@mail5.clio.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: eric Subject: PANSAT Hdwr Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:34:39 +0100 Message-ID: <1301345617-19091840@mail.clio.it> Ref: PANSAT Does anyone know when designs/kits for working through PANSAT will be available? Eric From srbible@gate.net Wed Nov 11 14:16:33 1998 Received: from osage.gate.net (root@osage.gate.net [198.206.134.25]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21437 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 14:16:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from avatar (kngga2-10.gate.net [207.36.2.10]) by osage.gate.net (8.8.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id PAA96152 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:15:12 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981111151802.009c7cc0@pop.gate.net> X-Sender: srbible@pop.gate.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 15:18:02 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Steven R. Bible" Subject: Re: [SS:128] SS digest 544 In-Reply-To: <199811110837.CAA24121@tapr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 09:34:39 +0100 >From: eric >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: PANSAT Hdwr >Message-ID: <1301345617-19091840@mail.clio.it> > >Ref: PANSAT > >Does anyone know when designs/kits for working through PANSAT will be available? Right now PANSAT is in BPSK mode and will not be spreading until the operating system has been uploaded. The command station is one-of-a-kind right now, and the PANSAT team is on the steep end of the learning curve. Once all the bugs are worked out, I am sure they'll have a good design to share with us. It has always been their intention to publish how to communicate with PANSAT. Just as with all projects, shortage of time and man-power. Hang in there. There's still a couple of months till PANSAT is fully commissioned. Try listening in on the 436.500 MHz (plus and minus doppler) center frequency. - Steve (n7hpr@tapr.org) From Daven6ojj@aol.com Wed Nov 11 22:10:38 1998 Received: from imo26.mx.aol.com (imo26.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.70]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id WAA16430 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 22:10:38 -0600 (CST) From: Daven6ojj@aol.com Received: from Daven6ojj@aol.com by imo26.mx.aol.com (IMOv16.10) id VQJMa04821 for ; Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:06:52 +1900 (EST) Message-ID: Date: Wed, 11 Nov 1998 23:06:52 EST To: ss@tapr.org Mime-Version: 1.0 Subject: Re: [SS:128] PANSAT Hdwr Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 182 According to the information in the well written PANSAT web pages, the whole thing is a series of student projects. They reported having only a brief time in each orbit to perform uploads, and receive telemetry and diagnostics. Making the satellite ready for use could take a few months. They report that only after they are satisfied with the operation will they release the user information youre after. The web pages also report the expected orbit life of PANSAT is on the order of several years. The PANSAT pages at the Navy Post-graduate School make for some wonderful reading! They left out very little in the description of the layout of the little orbiter. The links include TAPR, ARRL, NASA and Goddard Space Flight Center and really help with fill-in information. Check them out!! 73, Dave N6OJJ From Tom.McDermot@aud.alcatel.com Mon Nov 16 11:09:15 1998 Received: from eagle.aud.alcatel.com ([128.251.96.217]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA15231; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:09:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from mcdermott_lt.aud.alcatel.com by eagle.aud.alcatel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id LAA25241; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:08:47 -0600 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:08:38 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE1151.7667F460.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> From: Tom McDermott To: "'pcs@tapr.org'" , "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: DB products announces dual-polarization diversity 900 MHz antennas Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:08:37 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit In the recent issue of Wireless magazine http://www.wirelessweek.com DB products (recently bought by Allen Telecom) has announced a new antenna for the 896-946 MHz band. It generates both vertical and horizontal polarization at the same time. Rated at 9 dBd gain, omnidirectional. Antenna patterns available at http://www.decibelproducts.com Claim is that adding horizontal polarization improves the diversity of the signal in areas where there is a lot of poor coverage - especially for paging and trunking uses. Does anyone know whether there are paging or trunking systems in the 902-928 MHz band? We've seen some strong paging-like signals in this band in Dallas - but they are technically not pagers, but another service. Concern is that our strategy of using horizontal-polarization to knock down the huge narrowband commercial signals by 20 dB may get impacted if these types of antennas are deployed for this service in the amateur band. Tom McDermott mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com From Roger@c-spec.com Mon Nov 16 13:00:29 1998 Received: from c-spec.com (mail.sugarcreek.k12.oh.us [198.234.208.100]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id NAA21817 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:00:28 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199811161900.NAA21817@tapr.org> Received: from roger.servers.slsd.mveca.ohio.gov [10.2.253.31] by c-spec.com (SMTPD32-4.04) id A71F8E830298; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:03:59 EDT X-Sender: Roger@10.2.253.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:05:07 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org From: Roger Boggs Subject: Re: [SS:131] SS digest 546 In-Reply-To: <199811161721.LAA16058@tapr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" In or near the 902-928 ISM Band, you've got paging systems that operate with relatively immense power in the spectrum between 929 and 930 MHz and 931 to 932 MHz. You've also got the Part 94 Scada folks whose remote radios transmit at 928 to 929 MHz and receive at 952 to 953 MHz. For the most part all the above are vertically polarized. The FCC does grant 928/952 Part 94 SCADA licenses for horizontal polarization, but they're few and far between. The "paging-like" signals that you are seeing probably ARE pagers, whose lowest frequency I believe is 929.0375 MHz. Trouble is, at 300 Watts transmitter power and 9 dBi antenna gain, they tend splatter enough of their own signal around that, no matter what polarity antenna you're using, it still de-senses your receiver to your own signal. The antenna you're talking about is probably not permitted for use in paging or SCADA applications. It might turn out to be a great antenna for users of the ever-congested 902-928 spread-spectrum bands. What we'll need to go along with it now is a 20 dBi dual-polarity directional antenna to talk back to it, eh? Roger Boggs C-Spec Corporation At 12:21 PM 11/16/98 , ss@tapr.org wrote: > SS Digest 546 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) DB products announces dual-polarization diversity 900 MHz antennas > by Tom McDermott > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:08:37 -0600 >From: Tom McDermott >To: "'pcs@tapr.org'" , "'ss@tapr.org'" >Subject: DB products announces dual-polarization diversity 900 MHz antennas >Message-ID: <01BE1151.7667F460.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> > > >In the recent issue of Wireless magazine http://www.wirelessweek.com >DB products (recently bought by Allen Telecom) has announced a new >antenna for the 896-946 MHz band. It generates both vertical and >horizontal polarization at the same time. Rated at 9 dBd gain, omnidirectional. >Antenna patterns available at http://www.decibelproducts.com >Claim is that adding horizontal polarization improves the diversity of the >signal in areas where there is a lot of poor coverage - especially for paging >and trunking uses. > >Does anyone know whether there are paging or trunking systems in the >902-928 MHz band? We've seen some strong paging-like signals in this >band in Dallas - but they are technically not pagers, but another service. > >Concern is that our strategy of using horizontal-polarization to knock down the >huge narrowband commercial signals by 20 dB may get impacted if these >types of antennas are deployed for this service in the amateur band. > > >Tom McDermott >mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com > > > >------------------------------ > >End of SS Digest 546 >******************** > From frussle@erols.com Mon Nov 16 14:01:16 1998 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [207.172.3.235]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA17970 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:01:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from 207-172-133-97.s97.tnt6.col.erols.com (207-172-133-97.s97.tnt6.col.erols.com [207.172.133.97]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA05518 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:03:22 -0500 (EST) From: frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:131] DB products announces dual-polarization diversity 900 MHz antennas Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 20:00:13 GMT Reply-To: frussle@erols.com Message-ID: <36518319.2709086@smtp.erols.com> References: <01BE1151.7667F460.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> In-Reply-To: <01BE1151.7667F460.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by tapr.org id OAA17970 On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 11:12:29 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >In the recent issue of Wireless magazine http://www.wirelessweek.com >DB products (recently bought by Allen Telecom) has announced a new >antenna for the 896-946 MHz band. It generates both vertical and >horizontal polarization at the same time. Rated at 9 dBd gain, omnidirectional. >Antenna patterns available at http://www.decibelproducts.com >Claim is that adding horizontal polarization improves the diversity of the >signal in areas where there is a lot of poor coverage - especially for paging >and trunking uses. > >Does anyone know whether there are paging or trunking systems in the >902-928 MHz band? We've seen some strong paging-like signals in this >band in Dallas - but they are technically not pagers, but another service. > >Concern is that our strategy of using horizontal-polarization to knock down the >huge narrowband commercial signals by 20 dB may get impacted if these >types of antennas are deployed for this service in the amateur band. This is very bad news if these antennas become popular. Not only do hams use this technique, so do MAR telemetry users on the 928/952 MHz band. I'll mention this to our staff today. Jake Brodsky, mailto:frussle@erols.com "Nearly fifty percent of all graduates came from the bottom half of the class." From Lester.Veenstra@comsat.com Mon Nov 16 14:57:52 1998 Received: from kato.cws.comsat.com (root@kato.cws.comsat.com [134.133.176.105]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id OAA21178 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 14:57:51 -0600 (CST) From: Lester.Veenstra@comsat.com Received: from smtpgw2.cws.comsat.com (MISNT2.cmc.comsat.com [134.133.178.29]) by kato.cws.comsat.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id PAA27047 for ; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:52:41 -0500 (EST) Received: from ccMail by smtpgw2.cws.comsat.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.11 Enterprise) id 000C747B; Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:56:59 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1998 15:49:36 -0500 Message-ID: <000C747B.3332@comsat.com> Subject: Re: [SS:132] Re: SS digest 546 To: ss@tapr.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part This sounds like a job for good old faithful HELIX. "The antenna you're talking about is probably not permitted for use in paging or SCADA applications. It might turn out to be a great antenna for users of the ever-congested 902-928 spread-spectrum bands. What we'll need to go along with it now is a 20 dBi dual-polarity directional antenna to talk back to it, eh?" From n3jly@erols.com Tue Nov 17 06:15:40 1998 Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [207.172.3.236]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id GAA11255 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 06:15:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from spanky (207-172-128-241.s241.tnt1.col.erols.com [207.172.128.241]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA14278 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:15:38 -0500 (EST) From: "Tony McConnell" To: Subject: Re: [SS:131] DB products announces dual-polarization diversity 900 MHz antennas Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 07:17:48 -0500 Message-ID: <01be1224$4a55eb60$0107640a@spanky> MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.71.1712.3 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.71.1712.3 >In the recent issue of Wireless magazine http://www.wirelessweek.com >DB products (recently bought by Allen Telecom) has announced a new >antenna for the 896-946 MHz band. It generates both vertical and >horizontal polarization at the same time. Rated at 9 dBd gain, omnidirectional. >Antenna patterns available at http://www.decibelproducts.com >Claim is that adding horizontal polarization improves the diversity of the >signal in areas where there is a lot of poor coverage - especially for paging >and trunking uses. i work for a utility in maryland in the washington dc area. we are very concerned about these antennas. over the last few years we have been changing from vertical polarization to horizontal. That seemed to be the only way to deal with 929-932 paging while we are using 928/952 split telemetry. I've looked at some paging licenses for PCP(929mhz) paging and they are currently not licensed for horizontal polarization, but... From frussle@erols.com Tue Nov 17 13:50:22 1998 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [207.172.3.234]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA13767 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 13:50:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from 207-172-133-121.s121.tnt6.col.erols.com (207-172-133-121.s121.tnt6.col.erols.com [207.172.133.121]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14042 for ; Tue, 17 Nov 1998 14:50:19 -0500 (EST) From: frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:132] Re: SS digest 546 Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:49:15 GMT Reply-To: frussle@erols.com Message-ID: <3652d06c.264235@smtp.erols.com> References: <199811161900.NAA21817@tapr.org> In-Reply-To: <199811161900.NAA21817@tapr.org> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.5/32.451 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit X-MIME-Autoconverted: from quoted-printable to 8bit by tapr.org id NAA13767 On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:07:16 -0600 (CST), you wrote: >The antenna you're talking about is probably not permitted for use in >paging or SCADA applications. Uhhh, guess again. At work I run a Part 94 (MAR) SCADA system which is deliberately licensed and operated using horizontal polarization. Never fear, it's limited to 45 WEIRP. The SCADA users aren't the ones hams should worry about. It's those high power paging transmitters on 929 MHz. We selected horizontal polarization for the same reason one would in ham radio: We get clobbered with IMD if we don't. By the way, if you're wondering what a horizontally polarized omnidirectional antenna looks like, think waveguide, oriented vertically, with slots... Jake Brodsky, AB3A and also Control Systems Analyst, Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission From vk2tds@ozemail.com.au Wed Nov 18 00:48:46 1998 Received: from sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU (sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU [149.171.96.20]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id AAA22112 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 00:48:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from ozemail.com.au (max515053.servers.unsw.EDU.AU [129.94.15.53]) by sam.comms.unsw.EDU.AU (8.8.8/8.8.8 Kenso-Central-NO-SPAM) with ESMTP id RAA24471 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 17:48:38 +1100 (EST) Message-ID: <36513614.8720A241@ozemail.com.au> Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:38:45 +1100 From: Darryl Smith X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.03 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: PANSAT References: <199811161721.LAA16058@tapr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi.... There was a question a few days ago about PanSAT - The new Spread Spectrum Satellite. From my memory of Spread Spectrum theory, the design of the RF gear can be standard PSK transmitting and recieving gear, with a slight modification. On the recieve side, a mixer will prob. be needed on the front end between the antenna and the reciever. This mixer would be controlled by the PN generator on the SS decoder chip (if the PA-100 is used) Transmit would need the same, but be able to cope with higher powers. This may however be easier by hacking your radio. This will be an interesting thing to see working, as the recieve synchronisation can be a real problem. This is especially true when there are a number of users wanting to use the station. I imagine that a decent amount of CPU power will be needed for the encoding and decoding.... For those in the know - What will the chipping rate be (approx)? Then again it is 3 years since I have touched any SS hardware so my ideas could be way off. Darryl VK2TDS Sydney, Australia From jausten@tntech.edu Wed Nov 18 09:17:07 1998 Received: from tntech.edu (SYSTEM@gemini.tntech.edu [149.149.11.7]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id JAA10892 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:17:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from [149.149.39.26] ("port 2057"@cookie-monster.ece.tntech.edu) by tntech.edu (PMDF V5.1-12 #D3068) with ESMTP id <01J4BB53SHQE8Y30P0@tntech.edu> for ss@tapr.org; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:16:47 CST Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:16:44 -0600 From: Jeffrey Austen Subject: Re: PANSAT In-reply-to: <36513614.8720A241@ozemail.com.au> X-Sender: jausten@gemini.tntech.edu To: ss@tapr.org Message-id: MIME-version: 1.0 Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" A few years ago we did some class projects based on the PANSAT signal structure. Here are the basic specifications as we understood them at that time. All of this information was obtained from the papers and reports available at the Navy's NPS PANSAT web site. Modulation: Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum Carrier Frequency: 436.5 MHz Spreading Sequence: Seven Stage Linear Feedback Shift Register (Creates periodic "pseudo random" sequence of length 127 chips) Chip Rate: 1.25 Mc/s Bit Rate: approx. 9842 b/s (1 bit per 127 chips, aligned with the spreading sequence "code") Modulation: PSK Protocol: Half-Duplex ARQ (based on AX.25 packets) Generating the SS signal is easy to do. The entire sequence generator can be built into one standard PAL. Combine that with a mixer and an RF oscillator to make a basic transmitter. Receiving is also easy, once synchronization has been obtained. Synchronization is the hard part! Both code phase and carrier phase must be obtained (alternatively, a differential PSK demodulator could be used but Doppler must first be removed as the frequency shift is too large for that demodulator to handle). It is not necessary to obtain synchronization for the data bits as that is provided by the code phase because the data is aligned with the code. Note that because the system is basically a spread-spectrum packet radio the synchronization must be done quickly, at the beginning of every packet. This makes the task a bit more difficult. It may be possible to use knowledge of the code rate and phase to obtain quicker synchronization on subsequent packets once it has been obtained on the first; however, I have not analyzed the error sources to see if this is feasible. The RF stages are no problem and commercial radios or transverters may be used. The only requirement is that they have sufficient bandwidth (approx. 2.5 MHz) to pass the spread spectrum signal. Unfortunately, although most of the basic functionality was completed, the projects never got to a state where there was a completed, usable demodulator. During the course of the project several different approaches were analyzed and two specific demodulators were designed and built. A test transmitter was also built. I will be happy to discuss the merits of different approaches, design details of the demodulators, and make available complete details on the test transmitter for anybody who is interested. Jeff, k9ja --- Jeffrey Austen | Tennessee Technological University jausten@tntech.edu | Box 5004 +1-931-372-3485 | Cookeville Tennessee 38505 U.S.A. From Roger@c-spec.com Wed Nov 18 12:58:39 1998 Received: from c-spec.com (mail.sugarcreek.k12.oh.us [198.234.208.100]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id MAA16660 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 12:58:38 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199811181858.MAA16660@tapr.org> Received: from roger.servers.slsd.mveca.ohio.gov [10.2.253.31] by c-spec.com (SMTPD32-4.04) id A9BB97C60226; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:02:19 EDT X-Sender: Roger@10.2.253.4 X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 4.0.2 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 14:03:42 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org From: Roger Boggs Subject: Re: [SS:138] SS digest 548 In-Reply-To: <199811181725.LAA13827@tapr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yes indeed, horizontal polarization IS permitted for SCADA applications. Done it numerous times. Two popular omnidirectional antennas are the Paraslot from Scala, and a cute little 8 dBi omni from Olde Antenna Lab in Colorado, I believe. The antenna that folks were talking about was a dual polarity version, and I believe that you've got to declare one way or the other on your Part 94 license application. Roger Boggs C-Spec Corporation www.overlan.com At 12:25 PM 11/18/98 , ss@tapr.org wrote: > SS Digest 548 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Re: SS digest 546 > by frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) > 2) PANSAT > by Darryl Smith > 3) Re: PANSAT > by Jeffrey Austen > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:49:15 GMT >From: frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: Re: SS digest 546 >Message-ID: <3652d06c.264235@smtp.erols.com> > >On Mon, 16 Nov 1998 13:07:16 -0600 (CST), you wrote: > > >>The antenna you're talking about is probably not permitted for use in >>paging or SCADA applications. > > >Uhhh, guess again. At work I run a Part 94 (MAR) SCADA system which >is deliberately licensed and operated using horizontal polarization. > >Never fear, it's limited to 45 WEIRP. The SCADA users aren't the ones >hams should worry about. It's those high power paging transmitters on >929 MHz. We selected horizontal polarization for the same reason one >would in ham radio: We get clobbered with IMD if we don't. > >By the way, if you're wondering what a horizontally polarized >omnidirectional antenna looks like, think waveguide, oriented >vertically, with slots... > >Jake Brodsky, AB3A >and also Control Systems Analyst, >Washington Suburban Sanitary Commission > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Tue, 17 Nov 1998 19:38:45 +1100 >From: Darryl Smith >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: PANSAT >Message-ID: <36513614.8720A241@ozemail.com.au> > >Hi.... > >There was a question a few days ago about PanSAT - The new Spread Spectrum >Satellite. From my memory of Spread Spectrum theory, the design of the RF gear can >be standard PSK transmitting and recieving gear, with a slight modification. > >On the recieve side, a mixer will prob. be needed on the front end between the >antenna and the reciever. This mixer would be controlled by the PN generator on the >SS decoder chip (if the PA-100 is used) > >Transmit would need the same, but be able to cope with higher powers. > >This may however be easier by hacking your radio. > >This will be an interesting thing to see working, as the recieve synchronisation >can be a real problem. This is especially true when there are a number of users >wanting to use the station. I imagine that a decent amount of CPU power will be >needed for the encoding and decoding.... > >For those in the know - What will the chipping rate be (approx)? > >Then again it is 3 years since I have touched any SS hardware so my ideas could be >way off. > >Darryl VK2TDS >Sydney, Australia > > > > >------------------------------ > >Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 09:16:44 -0600 >From: Jeffrey Austen >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: Re: PANSAT >Message-ID: > >A few years ago we did some class projects based on the PANSAT signal >structure. Here are the basic specifications as we understood them at that >time. All of this information was obtained from the papers and reports >available at the Navy's NPS PANSAT web site. > >Modulation: Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum >Carrier Frequency: 436.5 MHz >Spreading Sequence: Seven Stage Linear Feedback Shift Register > (Creates periodic "pseudo random" sequence of length 127 chips) >Chip Rate: 1.25 Mc/s >Bit Rate: approx. 9842 b/s (1 bit per 127 chips, aligned with the > spreading sequence "code") >Modulation: PSK >Protocol: Half-Duplex ARQ (based on AX.25 packets) > >Generating the SS signal is easy to do. The entire sequence generator can >be built into one standard PAL. Combine that with a mixer and an RF >oscillator to make a basic transmitter. > >Receiving is also easy, once synchronization has been obtained. >Synchronization is the hard part! Both code phase and carrier phase must be >obtained (alternatively, a differential PSK demodulator could be used but >Doppler must first be removed as the frequency shift is too large for that >demodulator to handle). It is not necessary to obtain synchronization for >the data bits as that is provided by the code phase because the data is >aligned with the code. > >Note that because the system is basically a spread-spectrum packet radio >the synchronization must be done quickly, at the beginning of every packet. >This makes the task a bit more difficult. It may be possible to use >knowledge of the code rate and phase to obtain quicker synchronization on >subsequent packets once it has been obtained on the first; however, I have >not analyzed the error sources to see if this is feasible. > >The RF stages are no problem and commercial radios or transverters may be >used. The only requirement is that they have sufficient bandwidth (approx. >2.5 MHz) to pass the spread spectrum signal. > >Unfortunately, although most of the basic functionality was completed, the >projects never got to a state where there was a completed, usable >demodulator. During the course of the project several different approaches >were analyzed and two specific demodulators were designed and built. A test >transmitter was also built. I will be happy to discuss the merits of >different approaches, design details of the demodulators, and make >available complete details on the test transmitter for anybody who is >interested. > >Jeff, k9ja > >--- >Jeffrey Austen | Tennessee Technological University >jausten@tntech.edu | Box 5004 >+1-931-372-3485 | Cookeville Tennessee 38505 U.S.A. > > > >------------------------------ > >End of SS Digest 548 >******************** > From ssampson@usa-site.net Wed Nov 18 19:19:03 1998 Received: from access.usa-site.net (access.usa-site.net [209.140.34.130]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id TAA08180 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:19:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from dodge (dodge.usa-site.net [209.140.34.135]) by access.usa-site.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA00649 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:18:59 -0600 Message-ID: <002d01be135a$3e7b3980$87228cd1@dodge.usa-site.net> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:139] Re: SS digest 548 Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 19:16:32 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 How hard would it be to take the TAPR project up to 1.2 GHz? How much design effort thrown out? The more I learn about part 15 the more I'm not interested. That way you can get rid of the non-programmable hop code feature, and target 5 watts or so. Steve -----Original Message----- From: Roger Boggs To: ss@tapr.org Date: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 2:24 PM Subject: [SS:139] Re: SS digest 548 >Yes indeed, horizontal polarization IS permitted for SCADA applications. >Done it numerous times From mdmiller@eaze.net Wed Nov 18 21:35:45 1998 Received: from mail.eaze.net (qmailr@mail.eaze.net [209.160.106.3]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA12826 for ; Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:35:44 -0600 (CST) From: mdmiller@eaze.net Received: (qmail 2698 invoked from network); 19 Nov 1998 03:24:54 -0000 Received: from fred.slimpy.eaze.net (HELO miller.slimpy.eaze.net) (209.160.127.50) by mail.eaze.net with SMTP; 19 Nov 1998 03:24:54 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981118213539.007d87d0@mail.eaze.net> X-Sender: mdmiller@mail.eaze.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Wed, 18 Nov 1998 21:35:39 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:140] Re: SS digest 548 In-Reply-To: <002d01be135a$3e7b3980$87228cd1@dodge.usa-site.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" The TAPR SS radio has non-programmable hop codes? I have used many part 15 devices that had programmable hop codes. 73 Mark Miller N5RFX At 07:24 PM 11/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >How hard would it be to take the TAPR project up to 1.2 GHz? >How much design effort thrown out? > >The more I learn about part 15 the more I'm not interested. > >That way you can get rid of the non-programmable hop code >feature, and target 5 watts or so. > >Steve From Tom.McDermot@aud.alcatel.com Thu Nov 19 08:17:01 1998 Received: from eagle.aud.alcatel.com (eagle.aud.alcatel.com [128.251.96.217]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA13875 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:16:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from mcdermott_lt.aud.alcatel.com by eagle.aud.alcatel.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA08658; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:16:56 -0600 Received: by localhost with Microsoft MAPI; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:16:38 -0600 Message-ID: <01BE1394.EE044F60.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> From: Tom McDermott To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 08:16:37 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet E-mail/MAPI - 8.0.0.4211 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Programmability of hop codes is controlled not by the FCC, but rather by the US Department of Commerce, under the Export Administration Regulations (EAR). The choice of service (part 15, part 97), or the choice of band is irrelevant. The hop codes may only be programmable if the radio is not exported in an uncontrolled fashion from the USA. If the radio is exported from the USA, then DOC regulations make it unlawful to allow modification of the hop code sequences by the user, or required full compliance with the EAR (which is extremely difficult, complicated, and expensive). Further, it is unlawful to sell the equipment to any person on the US government 'Denied Persons List'. The Commerce Controlled List, prohibits the uncontrolled export of equipment and the sale of equipment to anyone on the 'Denied Persons List' Section 5A001.b.8 reads: b.8. Being radio equipment employing "spread spectrum" or "frequency agility" (frequency hopping) techniques have any of the following characteristics: b.8.a User programmable spreading codes; or b.8.b A total transmitted bandwidth that is 100 or more times the bandwidth of any one information channel and in excess of 50 kHz. Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. Tom McDermott mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com -----Original Message----- From: mdmiller@eaze.net [SMTP:mdmiller@eaze.net] Sent: Wednesday, November 18, 1998 9:41 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:141] Re: SS digest 548 The TAPR SS radio has non-programmable hop codes? I have used many part 15 devices that had programmable hop codes. 73 Mark Miller N5RFX At 07:24 PM 11/18/98 -0600, you wrote: >How hard would it be to take the TAPR project up to 1.2 GHz? >How much design effort thrown out? > >The more I learn about part 15 the more I'm not interested. > >That way you can get rid of the non-programmable hop code >feature, and target 5 watts or so. > >Steve From ik4iro@amsat.org Thu Nov 19 16:40:19 1998 Received: from bologna.nettuno.it (bologna.nettuno.it [193.43.2.1]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id QAA27636; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 16:40:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from orso (ppp07-nas0.sassuolo.nettuno.it [193.207.26.207]) by bologna.nettuno.it (8.8.6/8.8.6/NETTuno 3.1) with SMTP id XAA16201; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:40:06 +0100 (MET) Message-ID: <004301be140d$301ba100$cf1acfc1@orso> From: "Vittorio Moretti" To: , , Subject: DRSI card Broken Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:36:25 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 I have a DRSI card rev 10-89 broken. I need a schematic or the techical manual, can somebody help me? Thank's. 73 ik4iro Vittorio From mdmiller@eaze.net Thu Nov 19 22:16:42 1998 Received: from mail.eaze.net (qmailr@mail.eaze.net [209.160.106.3]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id WAA16463 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:16:41 -0600 (CST) From: mdmiller@eaze.net Received: (qmail 24549 invoked from network); 20 Nov 1998 04:05:44 -0000 Received: from fred.slimpy.eaze.net (HELO miller.slimpy.eaze.net) (209.160.127.50) by mail.eaze.net with SMTP; 20 Nov 1998 04:05:44 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981119221648.00835930@mail.eaze.net> X-Sender: mdmiller@mail.eaze.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 22:16:48 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:142] RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 In-Reply-To: <01BE1394.EE044F60.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tom, Thank you for your response and your hard work on this project. I still don't understand why the hop codes cannot be programmable. I live in Arlinton TX and do not plan to export any SS products. However, if I am not allowed to program the hop codes like I can any any commercially available part 15 device, I will not be purchasing the TAPR SS kit, which will be quite disappointing. Mark Miller N5RFX >Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. > >Tom McDermott >mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com 5 From morganb@inetport.com Thu Nov 19 23:49:56 1998 Received: from admin.inetport.com (inetport.com [204.96.100.2]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id XAA20659 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:49:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from as01-43.inetport.com (as01-43.inetport.com [204.96.100.123]) by admin.inetport.com (8.8.8/8.8.5) with SMTP id XAA23413 for ; Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:49:58 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.16.19981119234308.1f87fdbe@inetport.com> X-Sender: morganb@inetport.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (16) Date: Thu, 19 Nov 1998 23:43:08 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Robert B. Morgan" Subject: Re: hopping choices (renamed) In-Reply-To: <3.0.5.32.19981119221648.00835930@mail.eaze.net> References: <01BE1394.EE044F60.mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Mark and Tom both, Are we laboring under some semantics? I seem to recall playing with the Freewave units last year (seems like a long time anyhow) that they did have a choice of hopping patterns, or at least some addressing. But we CERTAINLY didn't have control over or even knowledge of what the hopping patterns were, only that we had a choice of some predetermined patterns from a predetermined factory list that was hardcoded. So that does give us a choice, but we certainly didn't know what we are choosing when we chose, and it may be semantics over whether we call it "programming". What if the list were long enough to contain all the permutations of the hopping patterns? Aside from the fact that it would be a long list, are there any other limits so that it wouldn't be confused with a nuclear weapon by the DoC? What would be the implications of having it manufactured outside of the US, aside from a messy manufacturing managament headache for TAPR? Or if we were to have a domestic and an export model, which I assume would be different firmware? 73 de Bob WB5AOH Austin, Texas morganb@inetport.com At 10:20 PM 11/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Tom, >Thank you for your response and your hard work on this project. I still >don't understand why the hop codes cannot be programmable. I live in >Arlinton TX and do not plan to export any SS products. However, if I am >not allowed to program the hop codes like I can any any commercially >available part 15 device, I will not be purchasing the TAPR SS kit, which >will be quite disappointing. > >Mark Miller >N5RFX > >>Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. >> >>Tom McDermott >>mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com >5 > > From dnewman@c-map.it Fri Nov 20 02:59:32 1998 Received: from daemon.zia.ms.it (root@daemon.zia.ms.it [195.103.158.219]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id CAA03255 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 02:59:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from mail2.c-map.lan (root@slip9.zia.ms.it [195.103.158.19]) by daemon.zia.ms.it (8.8.7/8.7.2) with ESMTP id IAA24172 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:57:20 +0100 Received: from ws63.c-map.lan (ws63.c-map.lan [192.168.0.63]) by mail2.c-map.it (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA24020 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:55:07 +0100 Received: by ws63.c-map.lan with Microsoft Mail id <01BE146C.7A871850@ws63.c-map.lan>; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:59:35 +0100 Message-ID: <01BE146C.7A871850@ws63.c-map.lan> From: Donald Newman To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 145] Re: hopping choices (renamed) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:59:32 +0100 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.7A904010" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.7A904010 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable All, We are currently using the Xetron Hummingbird OEM SS module and have = also looked at the Freewave. Both provide "programmable" hop patterns = as described by Robert: >"...we had a choice of some predetermined patterns >from a predetermined factory list that was hardcoded..." As he suggested there are in fact two models of the Freewave one for US = domestic use and one for export. The Xetron on the other hand is only = legal for US applications. C-Map is multinational and we would like to = be able to use the cheaper Xetron in Europe as well, but we can't. (Are there any other similar OEM products, with sensitivity -105dBM or = better ??) Regards, Donald Newman ---------------------------------------- C-Map =20 Special Projects Dept. dnewman@c-map.it =20 +39 0585 772466 ---------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Robert B. Morgan [SMTP:morganb@inetport.com] Sent: venerd=EC 20 novembre 1998 6.55 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:145] Re: hopping choices (renamed) Mark and Tom both, Are we laboring under some semantics? I seem to recall playing with the Freewave units last year (seems like a long time anyhow) that they did have a choice of hopping patterns, or at least some addressing. But we CERTAINLY didn't have control over or even knowledge of what the hopping patterns were, only that we had a choice of some predetermined patterns from a predetermined factory list that was hardcoded. So that does give us a choice, but we certainly didn't know what we are choosing when we chose, and it may be semantics over whether we call it "programming". What if the list were long enough to contain all the permutations of the hopping patterns? Aside from the fact that it would be a long list, are there any other limits so that it wouldn't be confused with a = nuclear weapon by the DoC? What would be the implications of having it manufactured outside of the = US, aside from a messy manufacturing managament headache for TAPR? Or if we were to have a domestic and an export model, which I assume would be different firmware? 73 de Bob WB5AOH Austin, Texas morganb@inetport.com At 10:20 PM 11/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Tom, >Thank you for your response and your hard work on this project. I = still >don't understand why the hop codes cannot be programmable. I live in >Arlinton TX and do not plan to export any SS products. However, if I = am >not allowed to program the hop codes like I can any any commercially >available part 15 device, I will not be purchasing the TAPR SS kit, = which >will be quite disappointing. > >Mark Miller >N5RFX > >>Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. >> >>Tom McDermott >>mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com >5 > > ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.7A904010 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IiQIAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAEIgAcAGAAAAElQTS5NaWNy b3NvZnQgTWFpbC5Ob3RlADEIAQ2ABAACAAAAAgACAAEEkAYAYAEAAAEAAAAQAAAAAwAAMAIAAAAL AA8OAAAAAAIB/w8BAAAANQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHNzQHRhcHIub3JnAFNN VFAAc3NAdGFwci5vcmcAAAAAHgACMAEAAAAFAAAAU01UUAAAAAAeAAMwAQAAAAwAAABzc0B0YXBy Lm9yZwADABUMAQAAAAMA/g8GAAAAHgABMAEAAAAOAAAAJ3NzQHRhcHIub3JnJwAAAAIBCzABAAAA EQAAAFNNVFA6U1NAVEFQUi5PUkcAAAAAAwAAOQAAAAALAEA6AQAAAB4A9l8BAAAADAAAAHNzQHRh cHIub3JnAAIB918BAAAANQAAAAAAAACBKx+kvqMQGZ1uAN0BD1QCAAAAAHNzQHRhcHIub3JnAFNN 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AB4AQYAIIAYAAAAAAMAAAAAAAABGAAAAADaFAAABAAAAAQAAAAAAAAAeAEKACCAGAAAAAADAAAAA AAAARgAAAAA3hQAAAQAAAAEAAAAAAAAAHgBDgAggBgAAAAAAwAAAAAAAAEYAAAAAOIUAAAEAAAAB AAAAAAAAAB4APQABAAAABQAAAFJFOiAAAAAAAwANNP03AABBdQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BE146C.7A904010-- From mdmiller@eaze.net Fri Nov 20 07:05:40 1998 Received: from mail.eaze.net (qmailr@mail.eaze.net [209.160.106.3]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA16442 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:05:40 -0600 (CST) From: mdmiller@eaze.net Received: (qmail 14134 invoked from network); 20 Nov 1998 12:54:40 -0000 Received: from fred.slimpy.eaze.net (HELO miller.slimpy.eaze.net) (209.160.127.50) by mail.eaze.net with SMTP; 20 Nov 1998 12:54:40 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981120070555.0084b420@mail.eaze.net> X-Sender: mdmiller@mail.eaze.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:05:55 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:145] Re: hopping choices (renamed) In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.16.19981119234308.1f87fdbe@inetport.com> References: <3.0.5.32.19981119221648.00835930@mail.eaze.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I think Bob is correct. I might be confusing total programmability with limited programmability. I think that a list of hopping codes would be quite acceptable. I was concerned that we would end up with a SS radio that had a fixed hopping sequence. I hope that what Tom and team are developing is a radio with hopping choices. At 11:55 PM 11/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >Mark and Tom both, > >Are we laboring under some semantics? I seem to recall playing with the >Freewave units last year (seems like a long time anyhow) that they did >have a choice of hopping patterns, or at least some addressing. But we >CERTAINLY didn't have control over or even knowledge of what the hopping >patterns were, only that we had a choice of some predetermined patterns >from a predetermined factory list that was hardcoded. So that does give >us a choice, but we certainly didn't know what we are choosing when we >chose, and it may be semantics over whether we call it "programming". > >What if the list were long enough to contain all the permutations of the >hopping patterns? Aside from the fact that it would be a long list, >are there any other limits so that it wouldn't be confused with a nuclear >weapon by the DoC? > >What would be the implications of having it manufactured outside of the US, >aside from a messy manufacturing managament headache for TAPR? Or if >we were to have a domestic and an export model, which I assume would >be different firmware? > >73 de Bob WB5AOH >Austin, Texas >morganb@inetport.com > >At 10:20 PM 11/19/98 -0600, you wrote: >>Tom, >>Thank you for your response and your hard work on this project. I still >>don't understand why the hop codes cannot be programmable. I live in >>Arlinton TX and do not plan to export any SS products. However, if I am >>not allowed to program the hop codes like I can any any commercially >>available part 15 device, I will not be purchasing the TAPR SS kit, which >>will be quite disappointing. >> >>Mark Miller >>N5RFX >> >>>Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. >>> >>>Tom McDermott >>>mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com >>5 >> >> > > > 73 Mark Miller N5RFX From ssampson@usa-site.net Fri Nov 20 08:03:03 1998 Received: from access.usa-site.net (access.usa-site.net [209.140.34.130]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA17715 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 08:03:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from dodge (dodge.usa-site.net [209.140.34.135]) by access.usa-site.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA02230 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:18:07 -0600 Message-ID: <002101be1488$31c2a460$87228cd1@dodge.usa-site.net> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:144] RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 07:17:59 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Priority: 3 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 4.72.3110.5 X-MimeOLE: Produced By Microsoft MimeOLE V4.72.3110.3 It doesn't matter what YOU plan to do, it's what the manufacturer plans to do. Does TAPR plan to export? Evidently yes. If you plan to export, then the US requires that they be able to monitor them with standard equipment in the field. All laws of these type are developed by the NSA and FBI which dumb down the enemy. Which Part 15 device allows you to program the hop codes? Steve -----Original Message----- From: mdmiller@eaze.net To: ss@tapr.org Date: Thursday, November 19, 1998 11:00 PM Subject: [SS:144] RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 >Tom, >Thank you for your response and your hard work on this project. I still >don't understand why the hop codes cannot be programmable. I live in >Arlinton TX and do not plan to export any SS products. However, if I am >not allowed to program the hop codes like I can any any commercially >available part 15 device, I will not be purchasing the TAPR SS kit, which >will be quite disappointing. > >Mark Miller >N5RFX > >>Sorry, I don't make the rules, I just follow them. >> >>Tom McDermott >>mcdermot@aud.alcatel.com >5 From dewayne@warpspeed.com Fri Nov 20 11:50:08 1998 Received: from warpspeed.com (c443742-c.frmt1.sfba.home.com [24.1.67.207]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id LAA24608 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 11:50:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.168.1.7] (209.19.79.20) by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 2.2); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:48:24 -0800 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ; format="flowed" X-Sender: dewayne@mail.warpspeed.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BE146C.7A871850@ws63.c-map.lan> Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 09:41:54 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:146] RE: 145] Re: hopping choices (renamed) At 3:02 -0600 11/20/98, Donald Newman wrote: > As he suggested there are in fact two models of the Freewave one for US > domestic use and one for export. The Xetron on the other hand is only > legal for US applications. C-Map is multinational and we would like to > be able to use the cheaper Xetron in Europe as well, but we can't. The export model of the Freewave radio has hopping freq which avoid the GSM services in the 902-928 MHz band in those parts of the world that use GSM in those frequencies. I used this version of their product for a project in Mongolia a couple of years ago. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com Warp Speed Imagineering ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM 43730 Vista Del Mar ! WWW: Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From matthias@penthouse.boerde.de Fri Nov 20 13:00:29 1998 Received: from relay.Boerde.DE (root@mkdir.boerde.de [193.175.28.19]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA26609 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 13:00:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from penthouse by relay.Boerde.DE with uucp id m0zgvmc-000OPcC (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:59:54 +0100 (CET) Received: from localhost by penthouse.boerde.de via sendmail with smtp id for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:51:02 +0100 (MET) (Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #1 built 1996-Nov-18) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 19:51:02 +0100 (MET) From: Matthias Weingart To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:149] RE: 145] Re: hopping choices (renamed) In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Could somebody please post the url's where I can get info's to the freewave radio? I think the 900MHz band is not available in Europe for ISM. Matthias On Fri, 20 Nov 1998, Dewayne Hendricks wrote: > At 3:02 -0600 11/20/98, Donald Newman wrote: > > As he suggested there are in fact two models of the Freewave one for US > > domestic use and one for export. The Xetron on the other hand is only > > legal for US applications. C-Map is multinational and we would like to > > be able to use the cheaper Xetron in Europe as well, but we can't. > > The export model of the Freewave radio has hopping freq which avoid > the GSM services in the 902-928 MHz band in those parts of the world that > use GSM in those frequencies. I used this version of their product for a > project in Mongolia a couple of years ago. > > -- Dewayne > -- > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com > Warp Speed Imagineering ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM > 43730 Vista Del Mar ! WWW: > Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! > Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ > > From mdmiller@eaze.net Fri Nov 20 17:51:25 1998 Received: from mail.eaze.net (qmailr@mail.eaze.net [209.160.106.3]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id RAA07394 for ; Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:51:24 -0600 (CST) From: mdmiller@eaze.net Received: (qmail 26712 invoked from network); 20 Nov 1998 23:40:21 -0000 Received: from fred.slimpy.eaze.net (HELO miller.slimpy.eaze.net) (209.160.127.50) by mail.eaze.net with SMTP; 20 Nov 1998 23:40:21 -0000 Message-Id: <3.0.5.32.19981120175144.00850920@mail.eaze.net> X-Sender: mdmiller@mail.eaze.net X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.5 (32) Date: Fri, 20 Nov 1998 17:51:44 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:148] RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 In-Reply-To: <002101be1488$31c2a460$87228cd1@dodge.usa-site.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >It doesn't matter what YOU plan to do, it's what the manufacturer plans to do. >Does TAPR plan to export? Evidently yes. >Which Part 15 device allows you to program the hop codes? The FreeWave DGR-115/115H has 15 User Selectable Hop Patterns. I think I misunderstood the origional statement and thought that the TAPR SS radio would not give the user any choice of hopping patterns. 73 Mark Miller N5RFX From ddraig@pobox.com Sat Nov 21 03:51:31 1998 Received: from mail.eisa.net.au (root@mail.eisa.net.au [203.63.152.11]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id DAA12928 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 03:51:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from pobox.com (ppp15-46.eisa.net.au [203.30.5.118]) by mail.eisa.net.au (8.8.7/8.8.3) with ESMTP id UAA13464 for ; Sat, 21 Nov 1998 20:51:41 +1100 Message-ID: <36566299.613B00C4@pobox.com> Date: Sat, 21 Nov 1998 17:50:02 +1100 From: dwayne Organization: Nexus-Limbo X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.5 [en] (Win95; I) X-Accept-Language: en,ja,zh,zh-TW,zh-CN,hr,en-GB,fi,de,el,is,no,ru MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:148] RE: 141] Re: SS digest 548 References: <002101be1488$31c2a460$87228cd1@dodge.usa-site.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Sampson wrote: > If you plan to export, then the US requires that they be able to monitor them > with standard equipment in the field. All laws of these type are developed by > the NSA and FBI which dumb down the enemy. Is this the case even with friendly enemies like Australia? If so it's very annoying. Is there anyone in Australia on this list, by the way? I'm in Melbourne and am looking to set up a spread-spectrum network across Melbourne with some friends. We're not sure the hell we are doing, I just thought it would be a nifty idea and I'm tired of slow modems. Unfortunately, our experience lies in computer networking, not radio :-/ I am beginning to see the learning curve stretching up before me. It looks steep. I have looked over a thesis by a guy from UTS, does anyone know what this person is up to nowadays? Dwayne -- mailto:ddraig@pobox.com http://i.am/dwayne "to push the hacking:sex analogy a bit further: Most users are chaste, innocent country girls who blush & lower their eyes when they see a boy, holding hands is the most they've ever done, and they think that kissing can make you pregnant. you mc, on the other hand, are a dungeonmaster in leather sm gear, spikes everywhere, tattooed & pierced, ready to tie down, fist & whip your partner with a squid while listening to laibach at full volume" From wd5ivd@tapr.org Mon Nov 30 15:25:31 1998 Received: from [128.83.74.104] (edb536j-3.edb.utexas.edu [128.83.74.104]) by tapr.org (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id PAA28557; Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:25:28 -0600 (CST) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Message-Id: Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 15:25:13 -0600 To: "HF SIG list mailing", " Spread Spectrum ", " TAPR/AMSAT DSP ", "APRS SIG list mailing", "NETSIG list mailing", "BBS SIG list mailing", " tacgps ", aprsnews, mic-e, TAPR Regional Freq , "TAPR-BB list mailing" From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: 1998 ARRL and TAPR DCC Audio, Photos, Abstracts, and More The ARRL and TAPR DCC Web page has been updated to include all recorded segments from the conference as well as a story and photo section. Visit: http://www.tapr.org/dcc/ * Listen to sessions from the 1998 ARRL and TAPR DCC over 30 hours covering Keynote by Dale Hatfield, W0IFO Chief of the FCC's Office of Engineering and Technology APRS National Symposium Packet Radio Users Group of Japan (PRUG) Technical Seminar Technical Paper Presentations Introductory Sessions Introduction to Spread Spectrum Introduction to PIC Development Introduction to MMDS/LMDS Friday Technical Seminar featuring Don Lemke, WB9MJN on Infrastructureless Packet Radio Networks Sunday Technical Seminars featuring: Lyle Johnson, WA7GXD - RUDAK digital communications system Tim Shepard, KD1YK - Packet Radio Networks with Millions or Billions of Stations * 1998 Conference Overview Story * Look at photos from the 1998 ARRL and TAPR DCC * Review Abstracts from 1998 Proceedings * Check out past Digital Communication Conferences Audio and Abstracts as of now, the 1999 ARRL and TAPR DCC will be hosted in Phoenix, AZ in Sept '99. More information will be posted once a date and location has been decided. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tucson Amateur Packet Radio 8987-309 E Tanque Verde Rd #337 * Tucson, Az * 85749-9399 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- e-mail: tapr@tapr.org web: ftp: ftp.tapr.org phone: 940-383-0000 fax: 940-565-2544 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------