From gfranca@demic.fee.unicamp.br Tue Jul 01 17:10:18 1997 Received: from demic01.fee.unicamp.br (demic01.demic.fee.unicamp.br [143.106.17.202]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA07992 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:10:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from gfranca@localhost) by demic01.fee.unicamp.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA28695; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:07:53 -0300 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:07:53 -0300 (EST) From: Guilherme Augusto Toledo Franca Message-Id: <199707012207.TAA28695@demic01.fee.unicamp.br> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Field measurements. Cc: gatf@hotmail.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Hi everybody ! Does anybody know some references (technical literature) for spread spectrum measurements? I would like to insert some data about it in my thesis. I made some trials and I would like to confirm my notes. Thanks in advance ! Guilherme A. Toledo Franca P.S.: Does anybody know telemetry system using ss? From gfranca@demic.fee.unicamp.br Tue Jul 01 17:10:23 1997 Received: from demic01.fee.unicamp.br ([143.106.17.202]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA07990 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:10:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from gfranca@localhost) by demic01.fee.unicamp.br (8.7.5/8.7.3) id TAA28693; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:07:50 -0300 (EST) Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 19:07:50 -0300 (EST) From: Guilherme Augusto Toledo Franca Message-Id: <199707012207.TAA28693@demic01.fee.unicamp.br> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Field measurements. Cc: gatf@hotmail.com X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII Hi everybody ! Does anybody know some references (technical literature) for spread spectrum measurements? I would like to insert some data about it in my thesis. I made some trials and I would like to confirm my notes. Thanks in advance ! Guilherme A. Toledo Franca P.S.: Does anybody know telemetry system using ss? From gil%w9bub@nw4ep.ih.lucent.com Tue Jul 01 17:41:59 1997 Received: from svs.com (grayfox.SVS.COM [198.4.241.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id RAA09382 for ; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:41:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: by svs.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id RAA02411; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:41:50 -0500 >Received: from w9bub.UUCP by nw4ep.ih.lucent.com (4.1/EMS-L SunOS) id AA00676; Tue, 1 Jul 97 17:37:54 CDT From: gil%w9bub@nw4ep.ih.lucent.com (Gil Kowols) To: tapr.org!ss@nw4ep.ih.lucent.com Received: from nw4ep by grayfox.SVS.COM; Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:41 CDT Received: from w9bub.UUCP by nw4ep.ih.lucent.com (4.1/EMS-L SunOS) id AA00676; Tue, 1 Jul 97 17:37:54 CDT Received: by w9bub (Smail3.1.29.1 #3) id m0wj5Ja-00015IC; Tue, 1 Jul 97 10:58 CDT Message-Id: Original-From: gil@w9bub (Gil Kowols) Subject: Microstrip Antennas Original-To: nw4ep!grayfox!tapr.org!ss Date: Tue, 1 Jul 1997 10:58:01 -0500 (CDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII At 06:15 PM 6/25/97 -0500, Ted Manolescu wrote: >> >> >> Hi everybody ! >> Does anybody know some references ( technical literature and software >>tools design ) for microstrip antenna ? > >I have some stuff on making impedance matched strip lines on PCB's >for doing high speed ECL/Digital design but I don't think this >is what you want. It focus's on the dielectric constant of the >substrate (G4 or teflon), the thickness of the substrate and >the width of the trace. The trace in all cases is above a ground >plane and/or power plane. This was from a high speed PCB design >course I took a few years ago. > >Let me know if you find anything regarding microstrip antennas, in >particular ones you can etch on a PCB, I'd be quite interested. > >Thanks > >-Jeff >Regards, > > > >"Microstrip Antenna Technology", IEEE Trans. on Antennas and Propagation, >Vol. AP-29, No. 1, January 1981, p.2 > > >> >> Hi everybody ! >> Does anybody know some references ( technical literature and software >>tools design ) for microstrip antenna ? >> Thanks in advance ! >> Ted Manolescu >> 613 592 4642 > >------- >Ron Parsons W5RKN > > In fact, the entire issue is as complete a bibliography as you can find. Future to that, issues of Microwave Journal and RF Design has many practical articles. One of the best is RF Design for June 1988 has "Principles of Microwave Design"; RF Design also has software to simplify calculation. There is a service that sells disks with the software. Boulder MIcrowave Technologies, Inc. in conjunction with California State University at Northridge (College of Engineering) gives a course about now on "Computer-Aided Design of Printed antennas and Arrays" featuring their software around this time of the year. Their software is pricey but good. Finally, Artech has numerous books on MIcrostrip design. gil, W9BUB gil@svs.com From frussle@erols.com Wed Jul 02 07:46:06 1997 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA24040 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 07:46:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from col-as2s40.erols.com (col-as2s40.erols.com [207.172.128.103]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA12562 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:45:59 -0400 (EDT) From: frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1572] Field measurements. Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 12:43:15 GMT Organization: Immature Radio Station AB3A Reply-To: frussle@erols.com Message-ID: <33bc43c9.1413226@smtp.erols.com> References: <199707012207.TAA28695@demic01.fee.unicamp.br> In-Reply-To: <199707012207.TAA28695@demic01.fee.unicamp.br> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.0/32.390 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, 1 Jul 1997 17:11:43 -0500 (CDT), Guilherme A. Toledo Franca wrote: >P.S.: Does anybody know telemetry system using ss? I am an engineer responsible for the design and operation of a 130 site SCADA telemetry system used by a large water and sewer utility. I've seen more than a few salesmen with "license-free" spread spectrum radios in the past. Frankly, I'll stick with the Multiple Address Radio (MAR) service for our telemetry needs for now. Here's why: (1) When installing a telemetry system, you have to consider the ability of a technician to diagnose what's wrong and get it back up and running in a hurry. Very few technicians know much about Spread Spectrum. Even fewer know how tell if the radio is working right or not. It's hard enough to find a technician who knows anything about RF in general, let alone Spread Spectrum. (2) A Spread Spectrum equivalent of a Service Monitor (such as manufactured by Motorola, Cushman, or IFR) doesn't yet exist. You can't just spew data on the air for an ad-hoc BER test. Our system is too busy for that. We need the ability to check a radio's performance while off-line. =20 (3) We would have to tolerate interference in a Spread Spectrum system. In our current licensed system, we don't. This is not a trivial matter. Our system is designed around several cells with master polling radios for that area. These master sites are located on top of water towers. They pick up an awful lot of signals. They use omnidirectional antennas (because the telemetry sites are scattered all around them), so the chances of picking up stray signals are good. Its bad enough when we get weather inversions and pick up skip from 70 miles away. We don't need direct noise from some twit's LAN bridge he uses to get across the street.=20 (4) We work with small path fade margins. This is not because we want to, but because the FCC won't license us for more ERP. Our remotes are limited to five watts (and whatever gain we can get from an antenna) and our master transmitters are limited to 15 watts, or some ERP number which I can't remember off the top of my head these days... Spread Spectrum telemetry radios would need lots of process gain to get what we have now with only one watt (the limit to Part 15 devices). Further, our Spread Spectrum radio Master site would cover a very wide area with lots of SS pseudo-noise. In other words, we'd trash an awful lot of installations currently using Part 15 spread spectrum equipment.=20 I would like to use Spread Spectrum radios when the technology matures, but for now the technical support just isn't there. Jake Brodsky, mailto:frussle@erols.com "Nearly fifty percent of all graduates came from=20 the bottom half of the class." From aeynon@micro.ti.com Wed Jul 02 08:20:32 1997 Received: from jester.ti.com (jester.ti.com [192.94.94.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA26043 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:20:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: from reliant.micro.ti.com ([158.218.63.15]) by jester.ti.com (8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA03924 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:19:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: from admin2.micro.ti.com (postmaster@admin2.micro.ti.com [158.218.63.17]) by reliant.micro.ti.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA12134 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:20:28 -0500 (CDT) Received: from aspc0662.micro.ti.com ([158.218.60.160]) by admin2.micro.ti.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-11540) with SMTP id AAA7916; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 08:19:55 -0500 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970702082144.00695adc@pcmail.micro.ti.com> X-Sender: aeyn@pcmail.micro.ti.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 08:21:44 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Alan J. Eynon" Subject: Re: [SS:1573] Field measurements. Cc: "Alan J. Eynon" Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hi Guilherme, > Does anybody know some references (technical literature) for spread spectrum measurements? What parameters did you want to measure? >P.S.: Does anybody know telemetry system using ss? The Tracking and Data Relay Satellite system used by NASA for space shuttle communications (including telemetry) employs spread spectrum. I believe Holmes did a very good treatment of it in his book _Coherent Spread Spectrum Communications_. I can provide you the exact reference off-line if you wish. 73, Alan N3IRL Software Development Systems, Stafford, Texas Instruments, +1 281-274-2943 -------------------------------------------------------------------------- "DESTROY 99% OF KNOWN HOUSEHOLD PESTS WITH PRE-SLICED, RUSTPROOF, EASY TO HANDLE, LOW CALORIE SIMPSON'S INDIVIDUAL EMPEROR STRINGETTES, FREE FROM ARTIFICIAL COLORING (AS USED IN HOSPITALS)." -- Monty Python From Aureusgrp@aol.com Wed Jul 02 19:20:21 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA24739; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:20:16 -0500 (CDT) X-Sender: wd5ivd@tapr.org Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 2 Jul 1997 19:08:32 -0500 To: "NETSIG list mailing", " Spread Spectrum ", "HF SIG list mailing" From: Aureusgrp@aol.com (by way of Greg Jones, WD5IVD) Subject: need help For those that might be interested. Greg ------ Hi. We're specialized recruiters and could really use you help. A client of ours has a high profile DAMA program and has a critical need for one or more DAMA engineers. These are exciting positions in design, development, and systems integration. Knowledge of approriate mil-stds is part of the picture too. Who do you know that I can talk to? Thank you so much for any help you can give us. Nancy Ulbert, CPC aureusgrp@aol.com or 800-289-4044. From lylej@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 02 23:20:05 1997 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (root@mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA08550 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 23:20:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ppp15.mmsi.com (usr4ip3.azstarnet.com [169.197.5.3]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29575 for ; Wed, 2 Jul 1997 21:19:49 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970702211815.007707b4@pop.azstarnet.com> X-Sender: lylej@pop.azstarnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 02 Jul 1997 21:19:50 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Lyle Johnson Subject: Re: [SS:1577] need help Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 07:20 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >For those that might be interested. > >Greg > >------ > >Hi. We're specialized recruiters and could really use you help. A client of >ours has a high profile DAMA program and has a critical need for one or more >DAMA engineers. These are exciting positions in design, development, and >systems integration. Knowledge of approriate mil-stds is part of the picture >too. Who do you know that I can talk to? Thank you so much for any help you >can give us. Nancy Ulbert, CPC aureusgrp@aol.com or 800-289-4044. > Greg, These guys get big bucks to recruit, so if anyone repsinds, through this message, please inform the recruiter that 25% of his fee goes to TAPR or you don't take the job :-) (The fees are often 40% to 60% of the annual compensation of the person recruited - I know, we just went through one to get a person we needed...) Cheers, Lyle From wd5ivd@tapr.org Thu Jul 03 00:18:45 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA16754; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:18:43 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970702211815.007707b4@pop.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 00:13:02 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: need help Cc: "HF SIG list mailing", "NETSIG list mailing" Thanks for letting us know Lyle. Hopefully someone will make sure that TAPR gets the finders fee if they respond. I know we could sure use it. I sure didn't know. Cheers - Greg >At 07:20 PM 7/2/97 -0500, you wrote: >>For those that might be interested. >> >>Greg >> >>------ >> >>Hi. We're specialized recruiters and could really use you help. A client of >>ours has a high profile DAMA program and has a critical need for one or more >>DAMA engineers. These are exciting positions in design, development, and >>systems integration. Knowledge of approriate mil-stds is part of the picture >>too. Who do you know that I can talk to? Thank you so much for any help you >>can give us. Nancy Ulbert, CPC aureusgrp@aol.com or 800-289-4044. >> >Greg, > >These guys get big bucks to recruit, so if anyone repsonds, through this >message, please inform the recruiter that 25% of his fee goes to TAPR or >you don't take the job :-) > >(The fees are often 40% to 60% of the annual compensation of the person >recruited - I know, we just went through one to get a person we needed...) > >Cheers, > >Lyle ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From glittle@awod.com Thu Jul 03 06:53:34 1997 Received: from sumter.awod.com (mail.awod.com [208.140.99.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id GAA22476 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 06:53:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from chs0084.awod.com (chs0084.awod.com [208.140.96.84]) by sumter.awod.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA04834 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 07:53:29 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707031153.HAA04834@sumter.awod.com> X-Sender: glittle@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 07:58:54 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: Glenn Little Subject: ss rf engine O'Neill Connectivities. Inc. offers a spread spectrum RF engine at an incredible $84.00 each. Unit appears to be 2.5 inches square and is surface mount construction. Phnone 1-800-OCI-LAWN, http://www.ocilawn.com. This is from June 1997 EE Product News. 73 --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glenn Little glittle@awod.com QCWA LM 28417 Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@amsat.org AMSAT LM 2178 QTH: Goose Greek, SC USA (EM92xx) ARRL --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From taylord@ecn.purdue.edu Thu Jul 03 14:33:47 1997 Received: from atom.ecn.purdue.edu (root@atom.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.132.94]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA26398 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:33:43 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [128.46.169.162] (instru1.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.169.162]) by atom.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.5/3.8.2moyman) with ESMTP id OAA05844; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:33:37 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: taylord@128.46.169.94 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199707031153.HAA04834@sumter.awod.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 14:33:31 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: David G Taylor Subject: Re: [SS:1580] ss rf engine >O'Neill Connectivities. Inc. offers a spread spectrum RF engine at an >incredible $84.00 each. Unit appears to be 2.5 inches square and is surface >mount construction. Phnone 1-800-OCI-LAWN, http://www.ocilawn.com. This is >from June 1997 EE Product News. > >73 Actually, they are $169 Q 1-9, but if you do buy them 10K+ at a time, they are $84....Plus you have to buy the Developers Package for $5000 first. Still, it looks interesting. david, KB9KNS --- Dr. David G. Taylor - Director - Instrumentation Purdue University, School of Chemical Engineering, 1283 CHME Blvd. West Lafayette, IN 47907-1283 USA V(765) 494-4085 Fax(765) 494-0805 From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 03 19:47:16 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA22853 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:47:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id RAA05019; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 17:45:19 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707040045.RAA05019@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: Don Lemke CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33B0099B.4AE6@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:16:00 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1559] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Don, >measurement of the BW. I was expecting -13 dB side lobes. We still need >to be -60 dB down outside the band, right? And as the coordination has Ah, so you were talking about out-of-band emissions. I thought you mean the intentional in-band signal bandwidth was too wide. Never mind. There are still a lot of nonsequitors about SS in your last message. To take a few: > "The STEL-2000A is designed to operating in either burst of >continuous mode: in burst mode, the built-in symbol counters allow >bursts of up to 65533 symbols to be automaitically transmitted or >received, while in continous mode, the data is simply treated as a burst >of inifinite length. The STEL-2000A's use of a digital PN Matched Filter >for code detection and despreading permits signal and symbol timing >acquistions in just one symbol." Much is unstated here, specifically the length of the PN code. It is simply not possible to "instantaneously" acquire a long PN code unless you either have a priori knowledge of where to search (e.g., with synchronized clocks) or use a *lot* of parallelism to search the entire space at once. > Of course that s one data symbol, not chip symbol. I found this hard >to believe too, and have verified it in a converstation with Stanford >Telecom application engineer. I also remember from the SAW class in i >took in College, that back in those days, this job was done with SAW >convolvers. Again, the acquistion was essentially instant. ANY spread spectrum demodulator is a convolver; a SAW is simply one physical implementation. So is a fully digital implementation consisting of multiplier and accumulator/low pass filter. Even with complete parallelism (which a SAW filter can provide) the performance of any such demodulator is limited by basic mathematical laws and system parameters like SNR. Note also that in a true SS/CDMA system you have several independent signals using the same PN code arriving at nearly the same power level but with more than one chip of offset. The demodulator has to be told which signal(s) to track; a passive SAW filter will just give you their sum. > A Digital Matched Filter Convolver (correlator?) is allot more >silicon real estate than an Acquire and Track Despreading technigue. This is a classic tradeoff between parallelism and real estate. >Thus the 18 dB processing gain limitation of the STEL-2000A, with rapid >acquistion. Versus the extremely high processing gain of chips intended >for CDMA, using Tau Dither, or other Acquisition and Track technigues and these technigues acquistion time limitations. Its a trade off. Processing gain is a function of the chip rate and data symbol rate, not the demodulator, though certain demodulator architectures may have trouble dealing with signals that have large processing gains, and others may be so suboptimum as to provide much less than the nominal processing gain. IS-95 CDMA has a process gain of 21 dB for the 9.6kb/s data rate, which is no so "extremely high" compared to your 18 dB figure. > It makes sense that a broader bandwidth signal, might have faster >acquisition. Just as a rise time thru a broader bandwidth is shorter. >DMF DSSS is a way to use that broader SS signal to work for a digital >communication system goals. Nope, doesn't follow. Again, acquisition time depends on many factors: 1. Length of PN code sequence (size of search space) 2. A-priori knowledge of where to search in code space 3. Degree of parallelism in receiver search hardware. 4. Signal SNR, data Eb/N0 and data rate. You must dwell on each point in the search space long enough to accumulate enough signal energy to produce a reliable detection. This last one can NOT be overcome with parallelism. Even if you have enough hardware to look at every code phase hypothesis simultaneously, you still have to integrate their outputs long enough to accumulate sufficient energy to make a reliable detection. Depending on the modulation and coding in use, this will typically be on the order of some small number of data symbol times. If the process gain is very high, this could be a very large number of chips. Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 03 21:26:49 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA28223 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:26:46 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id TAA05535; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:26:14 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707040226.TAA05535@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33B0E584.94@ife.ee.ethz.ch> (message from Thomas Sailer on Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:14:18 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1563] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet >This ties you up to the platforms Qualcomm happens to support, >and leads you to depend on Q's fortune. There are many vocoders >with source code around, and I suspect QCELP wouldn't so much better >than the rest that I don't quite see why I should use QCELP :-) You've been reading my mind -- I said exactly the same thing to the marketing types here who are deciding how QCELP software is going to be released to the Internet community. >I suspect Qualcomm made a different experience with IS95? Is >that why you've silently increased the peak bitrate of QCELP >to 13kbit/s? (it was around 7kbit/s if I remeber correctly some time >ago) Yeah, "Rate Set 1" CDMA used four frame rates: 9.6/4.8/2.4/1.2 kb/s. "Rate Set 2" increases them all 50%, to 14.4/7.2/3.6/1.8 kb/s. Frames are always 20 ms long, and the data rate changes only on frame boundaries. Actually, all those rates are overstated as they include overhead bits that are not available to the vocoder or the data protocol, including a CRC (size depends on rate, e.g., 12 bits/frame for the 9.6 rate), a type bit and a 8-bit tail of zeros for the K=9 convolutional encoder. There is an audible difference between the Rate Set 1 and 2 vocoders. Both are entirely intelligible, but the lower rate set has a characteristic "burbling" effect on background noise that some people find distracting. So we implemented Rate Set 2 largely at the request of the carriers. Also, when our primary competition was IS-54B TDMA with its 8kb/s vocoder, we had to keep our data rate down to keep system capacity up. (At one time TDMA was talking about a 4.8 kb/s "half rate" coder.) Now that TDMA is pretty much dead and GSM with its 13kb/s rate is the primary alternative to CDMA, we could afford to go a little faster. The main advantage of QCELP over other vocoders is its variable rate feature. This is a real win with CDMA. It's also a win with store-and-forward voice mail, as the average reduction in encoded data rate turns directly into a reduction in the size of the message file. It's of considerably less use for real time voice on a packet network like the Internet because of the substantial per-packet overhead of UDP/IP. The only way to get a substantial benefit from a "variable rate" coder in Internet telephony without adding a lot of packetization delay is to stop sending packets entirely when the user stops talking. And you can do this with VOX or PTT. Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 03 21:36:16 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA28909 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:36:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id TAA05590; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 3 Jul 1997 19:35:41 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707040235.TAA05590@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33B167F0.5468@aloha.net> (message from Mike Scott on Wed, 25 Jun 1997 18:16:09 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1566] Re: emergency communications >Just as an FYI...I was (still am) in Hawaii when Iniki struck and both >cellular carriers were off the air. Ham radio was our only source of >comms for several days. Iniki was an eternity ago in terms of cellular industry timescales. Compare the number and variety of cell sites then with those available now. (It was 1992, right? I know it was during the location filming of Jurassic Park, which released summer 1993.) Also, several large LEO satellite cellular systems are on the way (Iridium, Globalstar). When these are operational, we'll have global cellular coverage that cannot be taken out by local storms. >Granted, the ham bands will probably never be able to access the internet >the same way as the land lines can. That's not the point. The internet is >not the best place for emergency traffic anyway. Without power to the >providers, thar' ain't no internet. Depends on the nature of the traffic. I can see a lot of emergency-related traffic that's much better suited for the Internet than for the telephone network, just as it is for much routine traffic. Another claim often made in support of ham radio's "essential" role in emergency communications is that commercial radio facilities are often functional but overloaded during an emergency, leaving ham radio. It's amazing that people don't realize how dangerous this argument is. It tells the policy makers that the way to prepare for an emergency is to reallocate underutilized ham spectrum to allow the overloaded commercial facilities to expand. After all, the commercial users are already *far* more efficient in their use of spectrum than the hams are. Phil From priya@students.itb.ac.id Thu Jul 03 21:52:15 1997 Received: from students.itb.ac.id (root@students.ITB.ac.id [167.205.22.114]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA29792 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 21:52:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (priya@localhost) by students.itb.ac.id (8.8.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA10191 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:52:13 +0700 (JVT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 09:52:13 +0700 (JVT) From: "Basuki E. Priyanto" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1584] Re: emergency communications In-Reply-To: <199707040235.TAA05590@servo.qualcomm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII btw : could satellite cellullar reliable for data communication ? how fast ? On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Phil Karn wrote: > >Just as an FYI...I was (still am) in Hawaii when Iniki struck and both > >cellular carriers were off the air. Ham radio was our only source of > >comms for several days. > > Iniki was an eternity ago in terms of cellular industry > timescales. Compare the number and variety of cell sites then with > those available now. (It was 1992, right? I know it was during the > location filming of Jurassic Park, which released summer 1993.) > > Also, several large LEO satellite cellular systems are on the way > (Iridium, Globalstar). When these are operational, we'll have global > cellular coverage that cannot be taken out by local storms. > > >Granted, the ham bands will probably never be able to access the internet > >the same way as the land lines can. That's not the point. The internet is > >not the best place for emergency traffic anyway. Without power to the > >providers, thar' ain't no internet. > > Depends on the nature of the traffic. I can see a lot of > emergency-related traffic that's much better suited for the Internet > than for the telephone network, just as it is for much routine traffic. > > Another claim often made in support of ham radio's "essential" role in > emergency communications is that commercial radio facilities are often > functional but overloaded during an emergency, leaving ham radio. It's > amazing that people don't realize how dangerous this argument is. It > tells the policy makers that the way to prepare for an emergency is to > reallocate underutilized ham spectrum to allow the overloaded > commercial facilities to expand. After all, the commercial users are > already *far* more efficient in their use of spectrum than the hams > are. > > Phil > > *************************************** Best Regards, BASUKI E. PRIYANTO "Beat Spread Spectrum" Mail:priya@itb.ac.id *************************************** From jtmiii@n1nhs.skd.com Thu Jul 03 22:53:22 1997 Received: from n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us [199.92.98.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA03081 for ; Thu, 3 Jul 1997 22:53:11 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n1nhs (unverified [199.92.98.2]) by n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:53:03 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970703235303.0095b860@uisx.skd.com> X-Sender: jtmiii@uisx.skd.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 03 Jul 1997 23:53:03 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "James T. McCartney III" Subject: Re: [SS:1585] Re: emergency communications In-Reply-To: References: <199707040235.TAA05590@servo.qualcomm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" If you want an example of how reliable the birds are for data communications, you need look no further than the little DSS and PrimeStar dishes which are popping up everywhere. These are all digital using MPEG to encode the video stream. Also there is at least one company which is currently offering an internet download service using a bird that is located close to the DSS bird. James McCartney... At 09:56 PM 7/3/97 -0500, you wrote: > >btw : could satellite cellullar reliable for data communication ? > >how fast ? > >On Thu, 3 Jul 1997, Phil Karn wrote: > > ******* deleted ***** From N5RG@aol.com Fri Jul 04 11:21:10 1997 Received: from emout20.mail.aol.com (emout20.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.46]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA04625 for ; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 11:21:09 -0500 (CDT) From: N5RG@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout20.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA20495 for ss@tapr.org; Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Date: Fri, 4 Jul 1997 12:20:37 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970704122034_847100504@emout20.mail.aol.com> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1547] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Phil: Thanks for helping to educate me on how SS works. > > This is another misconception. Spread spectrum does *not* inherently > require overly expensive clocks any more than SSB or CW require highly > accurate and expensive frequency references. My next question is: How can the receiver aquire and maintain lock on the transmitted sequence without using a highly accurate clock synchronized with the transmitter? How does the relatively low cost spread spectrum wireless telephone synchronize the receiver to the transmitter? 73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG, W5PAG From fperkins@OnRamp.NET Sun Jul 06 10:38:26 1997 Received: from mailhost.onramp.net (mailhost.onramp.net [199.1.11.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA18631; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:38:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fperkins.onramp.net (ppp10-37.ftwotx.onramp.net [206.50.209.37]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA27463; Sun, 6 Jul 1997 10:38:00 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33BFBBD6.670D@mailhost.onramp.net> Date: Sun, 06 Jul 1997 10:37:58 -0500 From: Frank & Sue Perkins Reply-To: fperkins@OnRamp.NET Organization: Personal E-Mail X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: dsp-93@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org Subject: DSP-93 does SS Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------2C2B2F5B6565" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2C2B2F5B6565 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Very rough but working spread spectrum modem for the DSP-93 (well, slightly SS). DSSS, 31-chip gold code, 4X oversampled, DSP correlator, 6250 chips/sec, ~200 bps, for "keyboard" talking. 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LS0tLS0tMkMyQjJGNUI2NTY1LS0NCg0KDQotLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0tLS0N Cg0KRW5kIG9mIFNTIERpZ2VzdCAzNTANCioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqKioqDQpGSgIFkAYAkAAA AAoAAAADACEOAQAAAAMACzf/////AwAgDlFnAAADAPcPAAAAAEAABzCw3/bNJoq8AUAACDCw3/bN Joq8AQMABTcBAAAAHgABMAEAAAAMAAAAVW5uYW1lZC50eHQAHgAHNwEAAAAMAAAAVW5uYW1lZC50 eHQAAgH5DwEAAAAQAAAAQjKsLbz10BGIvwCgJJjKKR8j ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8A05.4A209490-- From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Tue Jul 08 09:48:24 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA27501 for ; Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:46:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14626 ; Fri, 04 Jul 97 09:32:43 UTC Message-ID: <33BD1F66.7CB0@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Fri, 04 Jul 1997 11:05:58 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Karn CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1559] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? References: <199707040045.RAA05019@servo.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, I was talking about both inband and out of band emissions, but was unaware of the lenient regulation regarding inband emissions, at 1.2 Ghz and above (which u pointed out in the a prior message). Regarding: > Note also that in a true SS/CDMA system you have several independent > signals using the same PN code arriving at nearly the same power level > but with more than one chip of offset. The demodulator has to be told > which signal(s) to track; a passive SAW filter will just give you > their sum. Welp, yea. But, I don t see CDMA as the way to do ham data networks. I see DDMA-WAN as the way. In which case, in each reception period, down each azimuth unit, there is only one DSSS station in range (assuming appropriate power control). So a SAW convolver is a good model here. I m not prepared to answer all the points below but what the hey, here goes, hi. > 1. Length of PN code sequence (size of search space) > 2. A-priori knowledge of where to search in code space > 3. Degree of parallelism in receiver search hardware. > > 4. Signal SNR, data Eb/N0 and data rate. You must dwell on each point > in the search space long enough to accumulate enough signal energy to > produce a reliable detection. I m not the Stanford Telecom application engineer. So what follows may be in error. The STEL2000A, as a few other of the DSSS DMF chip sets, uses a syncrounous Chip/Data clock. With N chips per data bit. In the STEL2000a, N can be as large as 64. This takes care of the first 3 points, with regard to being able to acquire in only one data symbol time. Your 4 th point is tuffer, hi. The DDMA-WAN concept would avoid using any, but strong signal paths. Its not CDMA. Its not mobile radio. In the SAW convolver the recieve signal is launched from one end of the device, and the despreading signal from the other. Within the device, there is a zone where a broad swath of the interacting signals is multiplied together, and summed over a broad phase range. If this broad swath is only as wide as one data symbol propagation time (in the piezoelectric medium), the two signals need to occur under this transducer at precisely the same time, to cause a despread output. Extrernal circuitry would need to search for this time relationship. If however the the transducer is made just short of twice as long as the data symbol, and assuming the STEL2000a configuration mentioned above, there will be a time under the transducer, when the despreading signal and received signal will be in code phase. If the transducer was made twice as long, there exists a possibility that two despread signals would occur at the output, one chip time out of phase. And a despread output will occur, no matter what the starting phase of each, as they enter the device. This is because the despreading signal is periodic. It also assumes that the received energy only contains one data signal, per chip code. Which is not the CDMA case, containing multiple data signals, on the same chip code, at varying chip clock phases. The above paragraph shows how a data signal can be despread with a 1 data symbol time delay. The time delay, can also be looked as an acquisition time. If this can be done with a analog device, does it not follow that it can be done with a digital device, mimicing the same mathematics? -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From wd0etz@tapr.org Thu Jul 10 06:50:29 1997 Received: from iasc3-113.flash.net (iasc3-113.flash.net [209.30.31.113]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id GAA13182 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:50:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: by iasc3-113.flash.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC8CFD.DAE6BAE0@iasc3-113.flash.net>; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:52:38 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC8CFD.DAE6BAE0@iasc3-113.flash.net> From: Bill Reed To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 1589] Message not deliverable Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 06:51:48 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC8CFD.DAEE5C00" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC8CFD.DAEE5C00 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----Original Message----- From: Administrator.at.HQS3@tapr.org = [SMTP:Administrator.at.HQS3@tapr.org] Sent: Sunday, July 06, 1997 11:16 AM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:1589] Message not deliverable << File: MESSAGE.TXT >> An error prevented processing the message to = completion. 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When these are operational, we'll have global > cellular coverage that cannot be taken out by local storms. Paul Harvey reported today that five more IRIDIUM satellites were put into orbit today. When this system is operational (projected in 1998), there will be no reason for any point on earth not to have emergency communications, except perhaps for lack of money or equipment. It seems to me that systems like this will give Amateur Radio serious competition for emergency communications traffic. For complete information on the IRIDIUM system connect to: http://www.iridium.com/ 73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG & W5PAG From glittle@awod.com Thu Jul 10 18:35:12 1997 Received: from sumter.awod.com (mail.awod.com [208.140.99.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA17840 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:35:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: from chs0165.awod.com (chs0165.awod.com [208.140.96.165]) by sumter.awod.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA15088 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:35:06 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707102335.TAA15088@sumter.awod.com> X-Sender: glittle@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 19:40:56 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: Glenn Little Subject: Re: [SS:1592] Re: emergency communications At 10:50 AM 7/10/97 -0500, you wrote: > >> Also, several large LEO satellite cellular systems are on the way >> (Iridium, Globalstar). When these are operational, we'll have global >> cellular coverage that cannot be taken out by local storms. > >Paul Harvey reported today that five more IRIDIUM satellites were put >into orbit today. When this system is operational (projected in 1998), >there will be no reason for any point on earth not to have emergency >communications, except perhaps for lack of money or equipment. It >seems to me that systems like this will give Amateur Radio serious >competition for emergency communications traffic. > >For complete information on the IRIDIUM system connect to: > >http://www.iridium.com/ > >73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG & W5PAG > > > When the system gets overloaded to the point that no one can use it, hams will come to the rescue. --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glenn Little glittle@awod.com QCWA LM 28417 Amateur Callsign: WB4UIV wb4uiv@amsat.org AMSAT LM 2178 QTH: Goose Greek, SC USA (EM92xx) ARRL --------------------------------------------------------------------------- From critta66@shadow.net Thu Jul 10 21:26:32 1997 Received: from anshar.shadow.net (anshar.shadow.net [204.177.71.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA02628 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:26:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dazoo.shadow.net (critta66@ppp-92.shadow.net [209.4.38.112]) by anshar.shadow.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA12892 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:32:32 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970710222316.008502f0@shadow.net> X-Sender: critta66@shadow.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:23:19 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: Chris Subject: need to aquire plans to build 10 gHz high speed network Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Hello fellow ham operators. I need to aqure plans on how to build a 10 gHz tcp/ip networkable system, simmiler to the one in the back of the 1993 arrl book (blue). I want to make a network using ethernet cards and 10 ghz trancivers. Does anyone have plans or know how much it may cost? thanks Chris KF4MYN From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 10 23:31:36 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA09142 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:31:34 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id VAA29128; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:31:02 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707110431.VAA29128@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (priya@students.itb.ac.id) Subject: Re: [SS:1585] Re: emergency communications >btw : could satellite cellullar reliable for data communication ? >how fast ? All of the LEO constellations now being built or designed are digital. This makes them inherently well suited to data communication. The data rates vary, from comparable to digital cellular (Globalstar, Iridium) up to megabit rates (Teledesic, though we'll see if that one ever gets built). Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jul 10 23:35:17 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA09589 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 23:35:15 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id VAA29136; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 21:34:43 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707110434.VAA29136@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <3.0.1.32.19970703235303.0095b860@uisx.skd.com> (jtmiii@n1nhs.skd.com) Subject: Re: [SS:1586] Re: emergency communications >If you want an example of how reliable the birds are for >data communications, you need look no further than the little >DSS and PrimeStar dishes which are popping up everywhere. Right. I don't know about PrimeStar, but DSS is 32 Ku-band transponders spread across three co-located satellites. 16 transponders run at 23 megabits/sec and 16 run at 30 megabits/sec (the faster transponders use twice as much RF power). That's an awful lot of bits. Of course, it's all one way. >Also there is at least one company which is currently offering an >internet download service using a bird that is located close to the >DSS bird. DirecPC, not to be confused with DirecTV (DSS), with which it does not share any hardware or facilities. DirecPC is also forward-link only; you must find some other way to send your return traffic. The data rates are also much lower, being something like 400kbps per traffic channel. Phil From steve@strohpub.com Fri Jul 11 08:11:01 1997 Received: from mail1.mailsorter.net (mail1.simplenet.com [207.67.128.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA28977 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 08:10:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from strohs.halcyon.com ([206.63.32.102]) by mail1.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA22779; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:12:16 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970711061403.0071badc@mail.strohpub.com> X-Sender: stevestrohpub@mail.strohpub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 06:14:03 -0700 To: TAPR Spread Spectrum Mailing List From: Steve Stroh Subject: Cool URL's Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Below are some URL's that came up in an Alta Vista seach I did recently, and it was suggested that I share them with the TAPR SS Mailing List. They deal with Paul Baran and his consistent message that specrum scarcity is largely a myth, and can be cured by the application of smart radios. He's been preaching this message for a much longer time than I was aware of. http://www.users.on.net/tomk/library/wireless.htm http://192.160.122.20/baran2.txt http://www.eff.org/pub/GII_NII/Wireless_cellular_radio/false_scarcity_baran_ cngn94.transcript I'm sure this one, a Forbes ASAP article by George Gilder is well known by now, but for completeness, I'll include it here. http://www.forbes.com/asap/97/0602/106.htm Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh, Woodinville, WA USA steve@strohpub.com From steve@strohpub.com Fri Jul 11 09:33:46 1997 Received: from mail1.mailsorter.net (mail1.simplenet.com [207.67.128.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA03315 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 09:33:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from strohs.halcyon.com ([206.63.32.102]) by mail1.mailsorter.net (Netscape Mail Server v2.02) with SMTP id AAA27402 for ; Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:35:04 -0700 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970711073653.00722e4c@mail.strohpub.com> X-Sender: stevestrohpub@mail.strohpub.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 11 Jul 1997 07:36:53 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Steve Stroh Subject: Re: [SS:1596] Re: emergency communications In-Reply-To: <199707110434.VAA29136@servo.qualcomm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Phil: DirecPC now has a two way version- DirecPC Enterprise Edition, which is based on VSAT technology. There was a press release about it on Hughes Network Systems Web site- http://www.hns.com/News/Press/dpcee.htm. Steve N8GNJ At 23:40 7/10/97 -0500, you wrote: >>Also there is at least one company which is currently offering an >>internet download service using a bird that is located close to the >>DSS bird. > >DirecPC, not to be confused with DirecTV (DSS), with which it does not >share any hardware or facilities. DirecPC is also forward-link only; >you must find some other way to send your return traffic. The data rates >are also much lower, being something like 400kbps per traffic channel. > >Phil -- Steve Stroh, Woodinville, WA USA steve@strohpub.com From brainysmurf@silverlink.net Sat Jul 12 12:37:28 1997 Received: from oly.olympic.net (root@oly.olympic.net [205.240.23.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA16939 for ; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 12:37:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from unknown (oly6-229.olympic.net [206.129.225.229]) by oly.olympic.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id KAA29081; Sat, 12 Jul 1997 10:49:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: In-Reply-To: <970709194506_-1762336053@emout03.mail.aol.com> References: Conversation <970709194506_-1762336053@emout03.mail.aol.com> with last message <970709194506_-1762336053@emout03.mail.aol.com> Priority: Normal X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 To: ss@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org MIME-Version: 1.0 From: "Michael R. McGehee" Subject: Re: [SS:1592] Re: emergency communications Date: Sat, 12 Jul 97 10:32:44 PDT Content-Type: text/plain; charset="ISO-8859-1"; X-MAPIextension=".TXT" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable I have unsubscribed from the listserv, yet I am still getting lots of mai= l. Is there something more I need to do? Thanks, Michael R. McGehee brainysmurf@silverlink.net ---------- > > > > Also, several large LEO satellite cellular systems are on the way > > (Iridium, Globalstar). When these are operational, we'll have global > > cellular coverage that cannot be taken out by local storms. > > Paul Harvey reported today that five more IRIDIUM satellites were put > into orbit today. When this system is operational (projected in 1998), > there will be no reason for any point on earth not to have emergency = > communications, except perhaps for lack of money or equipment. It > seems to me that systems like this will give Amateur Radio serious > competition for emergency communications traffic. > > For complete information on the IRIDIUM system connect to: > > http://www.iridium.com/ > > 73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG & W5PAG > > From n3jly@erols.com Sun Jul 13 19:40:26 1997 Received: from smtp1.erols.com (smtp1.erols.com [205.252.116.101]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA03986 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 19:40:24 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as7s04.erols.com [207.172.129.131]) by smtp1.erols.com (8.8.6/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA14617 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:41:05 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199707140041.UAA14617@smtp1.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:1599] Re: emergency communications At 12:40 PM 7/12/97 -0500, you wrote: >I have unsubscribed from the listserv, yet I am still getting lots of mail. Is there something more I need to do? > >Thanks, > >Michael R. McGehee >brainysmurf@silverlink.net Unsubscribe? is that what you have to do to get lots of mail from this group? i don't even get ten pieces a week. From n7oo@goodnet.com Sun Jul 13 20:22:57 1997 Received: from mail.goodnet.com (mail.goodnet.com [207.98.129.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA06783 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 20:22:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from goodguy (goodnet.com [207.98.129.1]) by mail.goodnet.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id SAA03636 for ; Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:18:33 -0700 (MST) Date: Sun, 13 Jul 1997 18:21:09 -0700 (MST) From: Jack Taylor X-Sender: n7oo@goodguy To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1600] Re: emergency communications In-Reply-To: <199707140041.UAA14617@smtp1.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 13 Jul 1997, Tony McConnell wrote: > At 12:40 PM 7/12/97 -0500, you wrote: > >I have unsubscribed from the listserv, yet I am still getting lots of mail. > Is there something more I need to do? > > > >Thanks, > > > >Michael R. McGehee > >brainysmurf@silverlink.net > > Unsubscribe? is that what you have to do to get lots of mail from this group? > i don't even get ten pieces a week. Wow! How come *you* get ten pieces a week? All I get is an occasional unsubscription request :-) From chbrain@dircon.co.uk Mon Jul 14 10:16:15 1997 Received: from mailhost.dircon.co.uk (mailhost.dircon.co.uk [194.112.32.10]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA13581 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:16:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dircon.co.uk (gw2-145.pool.dircon.co.uk [194.112.35.145]) by mailhost.dircon.co.uk (8.8.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id QAA23962 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:16:00 +0100 (BST) Message-ID: <33CA41E5.93D3F811@dircon.co.uk> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:12:37 +0100 From: Charles Brain Reply-To: chbrain@dircon.co.uk X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1118] Re: Ethernet Interface X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <19970307164256022.AAA45@[206.117.173.2]> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Darnell Gadberry wrote: > I like to would propose the development of a standard TAPR CPU > platform > with RTEMS support and RIP routing added to the RTEMS kernel. The > Thoughts? > Hello Darnell, I know you posted this a long time ago, but did you ever investigate RTEMS any futher? I have been trying to build it using a i386 pc target without too much luck. The go32 support is broken basically and the guy that did it can't remeber what he did and doesn't use it anymore (ie he doesn't want anymore to do with it). OAR are not too keen to give support without payment (to be expected) and most of the people that do use it tried the tests and that is about all they have ever done with it. - CUL Charles G4GUO From dan@lakeweb.net Mon Jul 14 11:55:43 1997 Received: from zapcom.net (zapcom.net [208.201.240.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA19409 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 11:55:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from booboo (ppp17.zapcom.net [208.201.240.27]) by zapcom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id JAA16736 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:56:01 -0700 Message-ID: <33CA5961.7020@lakeweb.net> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 09:52:49 -0700 From: dan Reply-To: dan@lakeweb.net Organization: lakeWeb Internet X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: 10Ghz and more References: <199707141309.IAA06600@tapr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit hello spread spectrum, I have put the first page of my projects up at: http://www.lakeweb.com/dbLabs/spectrumAnalyzer/intro.shtml Coming up, I have purchased a 'perfect 10/grundig' down converter for the Ku band. The LO in this unit puts the 10Ghz band about perfectly in the image. This thing now sells for $31.50! I am figuring to replace the throat of the feed horn with a little larger piece of copper tubing and gimmick the inter-digital filter and it should work very well. Has anyone else thought of this or done it? It should make a great point to point link for ham PCS systems. Is anyone doing work on wide-band digital for this kind of stuff? My first post to this list, I have been listening for a few weeks now. Best, Dan. http://www.lakeweb.com/ From darnell@binmedia.com Mon Jul 14 12:24:06 1997 Received: from gumby.binmedia.com ([204.140.236.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA22152 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 12:24:05 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [206.117.173.2] by gumby.binmedia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12756) with SMTP id AAA187 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 10:15:59 -0700 Subject: Re: [SS:1602] Re: Ethernet Interface Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 10:24:02 -0700 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: darnell@binmedia.com (Darnell Gadberry) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19970714171559494.AAA187@[206.117.173.2]> >Darnell Gadberry wrote: > >> I like to would propose the development of a standard TAPR CPU >> platform >> with RTEMS support and RIP routing added to the RTEMS kernel. The >> Thoughts? >> > >Hello Darnell, > >I know you posted this a long time ago, but did you ever investigate >RTEMS any >futher? I have been trying to build it using a i386 pc target without >too much luck. > >The go32 support is broken basically and the guy that did it can't >remeber what he >did and doesn't use it anymore (ie he doesn't want anymore to do with >it). > >OAR are not too keen to give support without payment (to be expected) >and most of the >people that do use it tried the tests and that is about all they have >ever done with it. > >- CUL Charles G4GUO > Charles, My experience with RTEMS has been similar. Alas, we have given up on using it as a tool in any of our products. I am currently preparing a OS feature matrix which I plan on posting to the list in the next few days. Additionally, we have decided to make the design our DEC StrongARM RISC CPU based communications card freely available to TAPR or any other HAM organization that wants to use it. We need to clean up the schematics and write some (lots!) documentation. I hope that we will be able to post a complete reference kit to our web site before the end of this month. Perhaps we can help inspire some real research and experimentation and not just more protracted debate about the minutiae of implementing a SS - TCP/IP - Data/Voice communications system. - darnell gadberry KE6UCL binaryMedia Communications darnell@binmedia.com From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Mon Jul 14 17:39:55 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id RAA15873 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:39:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14701 ; Mon, 14 Jul 97 15:57:32 UTC Message-ID: <33CAA8AC.79A0@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:31:09 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: 10Ghz and more Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Dan, Where does one purchase these devices? I ve actually heard about the Perfect 10 previously, but a web search only rendered information on pornography sites! -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From darnell@binmedia.com Mon Jul 14 17:52:46 1997 Received: from gumby.binmedia.com ([204.140.236.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA16419 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 17:52:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [206.117.173.2] by gumby.binmedia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12756) with SMTP id AAA190 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 15:44:35 -0700 Subject: Re: [SS:1602] Re: Ethernet Interface Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 15:52:37 -0700 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: darnell@binmedia.com (Darnell Gadberry) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19970714224435394.AAA190@[206.117.173.2]> >Darnell Gadberry wrote: > >> I like to would propose the development of a standard TAPR CPU >> platform >> with RTEMS support and RIP routing added to the RTEMS kernel. The >> Thoughts? >> > >Hello Darnell, > >I know you posted this a long time ago, but did you ever investigate >RTEMS any >futher? I have been trying to build it using a i386 pc target without >too much luck. > >The go32 support is broken basically and the guy that did it can't >remeber what he >did and doesn't use it anymore (ie he doesn't want anymore to do with >it). > >OAR are not too keen to give support without payment (to be expected) >and most of the >people that do use it tried the tests and that is about all they have >ever done with it. > >- CUL Charles G4GUO Charles, My experience has been similar. Unfortunately, there are very few full-featured,low-cost embedded OS implementations available with complete TCP/IP support. I have done a bit more research on the OS issue and have compiled a table of alternative Operating Systems for the TAPR networking platform. Here goes. They are listed in no particular order. Linux Pros: Runs on a variety of CPU architectures. Well Documented Very complete TCP/IP support. Free GNU development tools are free and readily available. I could craft a CD-ROM that contains the required compiler, linker and debugger. Cons: Free (Free stuff is usually worth exactly what you pay for it.) No central authority for major bug fixes. Who do we point the finger at when an obscure bone-crunching bug brings down one of our major backbone routers? Relatively large memory footprint for this kind of embedded application. Windows CE Pros: Subset of the Win32 API. This means that we can leverage an incredible body of software that has been written for Windows95 and NT. Java OS Pros: Written mostly in Java. Very easy to port to a new platform. Cons: Despite the hype. Java does not run very well on garden variety 20 MIPS 32-bit processors. Truly acceptable performance requires 100 Mhz or better 486 or Pentium class CPUs. Notice that all of the commercially announced set-top boxes running Java OS employ a > 120 Mhz RISC CPU. This probably makes simple home construction of a copy of the reference platform Needless to say, this dramatically increases the complexity and cost of developing an inexpensive reference platform VxWorks/Tornado PSos Other possible choices for an OS include: Windows CE (I have been quoted around $65 per copy from AnnaSoft. They are the Microsoft authorized supplier of Windows OS products to small OEM customers.) From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 14 18:35:47 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA22335 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:35:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id QAA15322; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 16:35:09 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707142335.QAA15322@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org Cc: karn@qualcomm.com In-reply-to: <33BD1F66.7CB0@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Tue, 8 Jul 1997 09:53:48 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1590] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? > Welp, yea. But, I don t see CDMA as the way to do ham data >networks. I see DDMA-WAN as the way. In which case, in each reception >period, down each azimuth unit, there is only one DSSS station in range This is a rather wasteful use of spectrum. > Your 4 th point is tuffer, hi. The DDMA-WAN concept would avoid >using any, but strong signal paths. Its not CDMA. Its not mobile radio. Ditto. Consider the interference your strong signals cause others. > In the SAW convolver the recieve signal is launched from one end >of the device, and the despreading signal from the other. Within the >device, there is a zone where a broad swath of the interacting signals >is multiplied together, and summed over a broad phase range. If this >broad swath is only as wide as one data symbol propagation time (in the >piezoelectric medium), the two signals need to occur under this >transducer at precisely the same time, to cause a despread output. >Extrernal circuitry would need to search for this time relationship. My understanding of SAW devices is that they have their "despreading signals" hard-encoded into the structure of the device. Essentially they are passive finite-impulse-response filters. Mathematically, they're discrete in time but analog in amplitude. And while they're a very cheap way to do certain filters, they do have their limits. I believe, for example, that SAW convolvers are limited to relatively short PN codes. Codes of the length commonly used with CDMA are impractical in SAW. In any event, a SAW is simply an implementation of the same mathematical operations that can be done entirely digitally. The same laws of mathematics still apply. > The above paragraph shows how a data signal can be despread >with a 1 data symbol time delay. The time delay, can also be looked as >an acquisition time. If this can be done with a analog device, does it >not follow that it can be done with a digital device, mimicing the same >mathematics? Well sure, in the sense that the post-multiplication integration is performed over a symbol interval. A longer integration would strip off the baseband modulation! And this again assumes a very short PN code that can fit into the SAW. Such a short PN code could also be acquired very quickly in a purely digital correlator. But such short codes are not very useful for CDMA (necessary for decent spectral efficiency), nor are they good at suppressing intersymbol or co-channel interference. You're giving up many of the reasons to use spreading in the first place. Regardless of what kind of correlator you use, though, you still have to recover carrier phase (if coherent demodulation is used) and symbol timing. Phil From darnell@binmedia.com Mon Jul 14 20:17:46 1997 Received: from gumby.binmedia.com ([204.140.236.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA01592 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:17:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [206.117.173.2] by gumby.binmedia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12756) with SMTP id AAA192 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 18:09:34 -0700 Subject: Re: [SS:1606] Re: Ethernet Interface Date: Mon, 14 Jul 97 18:17:35 -0700 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: darnell@binmedia.com (Darnell Gadberry) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19970715010933902.AAA192@[206.117.173.2]> Oops, Please ignore my last partial post regarding operating systems. It was a VERY early work-in-progress that I accidentally mailed. - darnell gadberry KE6UCL binaryMedia Communications darnell@binmedia.com From epaolin@mail5.clio.it Mon Jul 14 21:14:03 1997 Received: from mail5.clio.it ([195.60.128.102]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA05103 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 21:14:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: from epaolin.clio.it (195.60.140.12) by mail5.clio.it with SMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.1.2); Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:12:41 +0100 X-Sender: epaolin@mail5.clio.it X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: eric Subject: SS Radios Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:12:41 +0100 Message-ID: <1343182535-19801950@mail5.clio.it> Has an alternate to FREEWAVE'S SS radio been found for use as an experimental amateur platform? Eric KB2YAM From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jul 14 22:44:22 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA10488 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 22:44:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id UAA17395; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 20:43:48 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707150343.UAA17395@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <199707102335.TAA15088@sumter.awod.com> (message from Glenn Little on Thu, 10 Jul 1997 18:40:20 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1593] Re: emergency communications >When the system gets overloaded to the point that no one can use it, hams >will come to the rescue. Yup, by having more of our underutilized spectrum transferred to the commercial guys who are obviously in a much better position to use it efficiently, and to provide emergency services to the public. I can't believe how many hams keep making the "commercial services are overloaded in an emergency" argument without realizing how dangerous it is. Phil From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Mon Jul 14 23:32:13 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id XAA11951 for ; Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:13:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14711 ; Mon, 14 Jul 97 21:31:27 UTC Message-ID: <33CAF6F1.5919@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:05:05 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Karn CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, > > Welp, yea. But, I don t see CDMA as the way to do ham data > >networks. I see DDMA-WAN as the way. In which case, in each reception > >period, down each azimuth unit, there is only one DSSS station in range > > This is a rather wasteful use of spectrum. How so? DDMA-WAN is narrower in BW than a CDMA system at the same baud rate. Since it uses antenna off-boresite rejection to allow for a lesser processing gain. And lesser processing gain results in a narrower bandwidth signal. But, its really not spectrum alone that is the whole consideration. Its Spectrum-Time-Area for a given BER. > > > Your 4 th point is tuffer, hi. The DDMA-WAN concept would avoid > >using any, but strong signal paths. Its not CDMA. Its not mobile radio. > > Ditto. Consider the interference your strong signals cause others. No more than an omni CDMA with the same ERP. At the same data rate (not my intent) the DDMA-WAN would have even a lesser interferance area than Omni CMDA. Since the receive antenna directivity would allow for lower transmitter power. Again, its Spectrum-Time-Area. A broadbandwidth signal in a small area, for a short time, can be equivalent in resource utilization as a narrowbandwidth, large area, long duration signal. The FCC considers that for every 3 dB increase in antenna gain, only a 1 dB decrease in power level is needed to maintain the same illumination contours. If, one drops the power to only what one needs to do the communication, for every 3 dB gain in transmitter antenna gain, one can decrease illuminated area by 2 dB. And this does not even consider the second 3 dB power reduction possible if the receive antenna gain tracks the transmitter, in the system design. > My understanding of SAW devices is that they have their "despreading > signals" hard-encoded into the structure of the device. Essentially they > are passive finite-impulse-response filters. Mathematically, they're > discrete in time but analog in amplitude. And while they're a very > cheap way to do certain filters, they do have their limits. While it is certainly possible to make a fix coded SAW despreader, there are such devices as Saw Convolvers. Which have two inputs and an output which represents the convolution of the two inputs. > I believe, > for example, that SAW convolvers are limited to relatively short PN > codes. Codes of the length commonly used with CDMA are impractical in > SAW. Yes, this is true. Which is why i used the SAW device only as a model. To prove that the Matched Filter Technigue could decode in one symbol time. > But such short codes are > not very useful for CDMA (necessary for decent spectral efficiency), > nor are they good at suppressing intersymbol or co-channel > interference. You're giving up many of the reasons to use spreading > in the first place. Which is why there is directivity involved. To make up for the short SS code. I m assuming that by "intersymbol" u really are meaning to say delay spread. I m really not trying to do CDMA at all. This is different. Its DDMA, using SS for some additional delay spread help, and extra cochannel protection since antennas are not perfect. > Regardless of what kind of correlator you use, though, you still have > to recover carrier phase (if coherent demodulation is used) and symbol > timing. Yep, this is where im guessing. Am i misunderstanding Stanford Telecom regarding the lock-up time, or is the this timing derived from the DMF correlator. The CHIP clock frequency is an integer multiple of the Symbol clock? The output of the IC is data, with clock. Here is some stuff from the STEL2000A data sheet, regarding its "Symbol Tracking Processor": "The output of the Power Detector Block represents the signal power during each chip period. Ideally the output will have a high peak value once per symbol (i.e., once per PN code cycle) when the code sequence of the received signal iin the PN Matched Filter is the same as (and is aligned in time with) the reference PN code used in the PN Matched Filter. At that instant, the I and Q channel outputs of the PN Matched Filter are, theoretecially, the omtimally despread I and Q symbols." So, I see this is similar to the SAW matched filter technigue. Some time during the period, the convolution reaches a correlation peak power level, which is coincident with the time alignment of the received signal, and the local PN sequence. If the symbol clock is aligned with this time, its aligned with the received data symbol. Does this make sense? Regarding poor signal to noise situations, they say the chip has a "flywheel circuit". It apparently, as i read this, puts a window around the expected next period transistion, and ignores transistions outside the window. This chip is used in allot of the WLAN products. Instead of antenna directivity, the WLAN has a concrete block wall between neighboring (in the next office over) systems. In combination with with small DSSS code, they can coexist. Instead of a concrete block wall, I m proposing hams use a azimuthal scanning antenna, along with the small DSSS code. This way each communication (between two network neighbors) is protected. This allows a higher data rate in a local area, and respectible MAN thruputs. I think IS-95 model of CDMA is great for what it was designed for. Which is loading the spectrum with the maximun numbers for low data rate omni antenna user stations. And I think Ham Radio should do a TDD 6 meter, or 420 Mhz version of this system, to support omnipresent omnilinked voice communications! With our low levels of users, some of that capacity could even be put to doing the links, right there in the same spectrum! The IS-95 system goal is far different from the high data rate- networking, mostly stationary user that Ham TCPIP Packet Radio represents. Which is what i see DDMA-WAN as a viable solution to. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From dewayne@warpspeed.com Tue Jul 15 02:23:46 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id CAA10876 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 02:23:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b4); Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:23:41 -0700 X-Sender: dewayne@odo.warpspeed.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199707150343.UAA17395@servo.qualcomm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 00:23:34 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:1610] Re: emergency communications At 10:46 PM -0500 7/14/97, Phil Karn wrote: >>When the system gets overloaded to the point that no one can use it, hams >>will come to the rescue. > >Yup, by having more of our underutilized spectrum transferred to the >commercial guys who are obviously in a much better position to use it >efficiently, and to provide emergency services to the public. > Phil is quite correct in his assertion above. This recently happened when the FCC reallocated the 2305-2310 MHz part of our exisiting secondary allocation at 2300-2310 MHz to the new Wireless Communications Service (WCS) on a primary basis. This spectrum was then put up for auction with great fanfare earlier this year and companies such as Metricom for instance were awarded licenses for this new WCS service after the auction. >I can't believe how many hams keep making the "commercial services are >overloaded in an emergency" argument without realizing how dangerous >it is. I agree. It is silly to continue to put forth the notion that the commercial sector will not learn from experience and take steps to insure that adequate system capacity is available for such situtations. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From karn@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 15 04:17:53 1997 Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.129]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id EAA15856 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 04:17:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) with ESMTP id WAA10834 for ; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:14:02 -0700 (PDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id WAA29388; Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Thu, 10 Jul 1997 22:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707110511.WAA29388@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <970704122034_847100504@emout20.mail.aol.com> (N5RG@aol.com) Subject: Re: [SS:1587] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? >My next question is: How can the receiver aquire and maintain lock on the >transmitted sequence without using a highly accurate clock synchronized >with the transmitter? Depends on the specific system, of course (remember "SS" is a generic term). I'll describe direct sequence, as it's the system I'm most familar with. If the acquisition code is fairly short, as it is for both IS-95 CDMA (32768 chips) and GPS (1023 chips), then the receiver can search the entire PN sequence space fairly rapidly, e.g., in a few seconds. This is done before acquiring carrier phase, since you can't see the carrier (or any other part of the signal) until you've despread it. So generally you run the RF signal through a multiplier (mixer) driven by a clocked PN generator, bandpass filter the mixer output around the the expected carrier frequency (with the filter allowing for doppler shift, etc) and slew the clock driving the PN generator until you see a lot of energy suddenly pop up in the bandpass filter. (The energy detector can be as simple as an AM envelope detector). When this happens, you begin code tracking in one of several ways. They're all variants of classic phase lock loops, though in this case the "phase comparator" is comparing code phase, not sine wave phase. Typically you have one correlator running 1/2 chip late and another 1/2 chip early with bandpass filters and energy detectors on both. Your loop error signal is simply the filtered difference in energy of these two detectors; when you're right on the correct code phase, the two detectors produce equal energy and the feedback signal is zero. You must stay within +/-1/2 chip to retain lock; if you fall out, you have to search again. It's not quite like a normal PLL tracking a sinewave where you get a meaningful error signal from your phase detector over most of the "search space" (signal phase). To save hardware, you can use a single despreader and filter and "tau dither" it +/- 1/2 chip from nominal timing; this is essentially a timeshared despreader. It doesn't perform as well, though. Once you have code phase, you can despread the signal and demodulate it as though it were narrowband to start with. E.g., if it is coherent BPSK, you'd use a Costas loop or squaring loop to recover carrier phase and the modulation. >How does the relatively low cost spread spectrum wireless telephone >synchronize >the receiver to the transmitter? IS-95 CDMA is a bit more complex than I described. There is a significant "pilot" component from the cell that is essentially just what I described above -- a 32768-chip PN sequence on a carrier with no other modulation. The trackers in the phone respond only to this signal. But instead of locking a PLL to the despread carrier, they simply filter it and use the despread pilot itself as the local carrier reference. This is nice for dealing with multipath fading where carrier phase can otherwise change too rapidly for a PLL to keep up. It's fully analogous to a nonspread BPSK system with residual carrier that JPL still uses on deep space probes (e.g., Mars Pathfinder) when the C/N0 ratio is too weak and the relative frequency uncertainty too great to permit efficient recovery of a carrier reference from a fully suppressed (+/- 90 deg phase deviation) signal. But pilots cost power, so you want to minimize them. In the case of the IS-95 forward (cell->mobile) link a single pilot can be shared by all the users in the cell, so it isn't unreasonable to have a pilot that's a few dB stronger than the actual traffic signals directed at each user. The actual traffic is spread on what amount to "subcarriers" on top of the main carrier. There are 64 of these subcarriers, which are in fact Walsh functions instead of sine waves. One, walsh function zero, is in fact DC, which is reserved for the pilot "carrier". Several more are used for overhead (paging, etc), with typically 61 available for user traffic. But all the timing is synchronized with the spreading on the pilot, so once the phone has acquired the pilot it has all of the timing it needs to despread and decode everything else. Phil From critta66@shadow.net Tue Jul 15 07:35:21 1997 Received: from anshar.shadow.net (anshar.shadow.net [204.177.71.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA06108 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 07:35:20 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hyper (hyper.shadow.net [204.177.71.251]) by anshar.shadow.net (8.8.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01215; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:41:29 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:41:25 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher Chow X-Sender: critta66@hyper To: ss@tapr.org cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1606] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <19970714224435394.AAA190@[206.117.173.2]> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 14 Jul 1997, Darnell Gadberry wrote: > >Darnell Gadberry wrote: > > > >> I like to would propose the development of a standard TAPR CPU > >> platform > >> with RTEMS support and RIP routing added to the RTEMS kernel. The > >> Thoughts? > >> > > > >Hello Darnell, > > > >I know you posted this a long time ago, but did you ever investigate > >RTEMS any > >futher? I have been trying to build it using a i386 pc target without > >too much luck. > > > >The go32 support is broken basically and the guy that did it can't > >remeber what he > >did and doesn't use it anymore (ie he doesn't want anymore to do with > >it). > > > >OAR are not too keen to give support without payment (to be expected) > >and most of the > >people that do use it tried the tests and that is about all they have > >ever done with it. > > > >- CUL Charles G4GUO > > Charles, > > My experience has been similar. Unfortunately, there are very few > full-featured,low-cost embedded OS implementations available with > complete TCP/IP support. I have done a bit more > research on the OS issue and have compiled a table of alternative > Operating Systems for > the TAPR networking platform. > > Here goes. They are listed in no particular order. > > > Linux > Pros: > > Runs on a variety of > CPU architectures. > > Well Documented > > Very complete TCP/IP > support. > > Free > > GNU development tools are free and readily available. I > could > craft a CD-ROM that contains the required compiler, > linker and > debugger. > > Cons: > > Free (Free stuff is usually worth exactly what you pay > for it.) > > No central authority for major bug fixes. Who do we > point the finger > at when an obscure bone-crunching bug brings down one > of our major > backbone routers? > > Relatively large memory footprint for this kind of > embedded application. > > > Windows CE > > Pros: > > Subset of the Win32 API. This means that we can > leverage an incredible > body of software that has been written for Windows95 > and NT. > > Java OS > Pros: > Written mostly in Java. Very easy to port to a new > platform. > > > Cons: > Despite the hype. Java does not run very well on garden > variety 20 MIPS > 32-bit processors. Truly acceptable performance > requires 100 Mhz or > better 486 or Pentium class CPUs. Notice that all of > the commercially > announced set-top boxes running Java OS employ a > 120 > Mhz RISC CPU. > This probably makes simple home construction of a copy > of the reference > platform > Needless to say, this dramatically increases the > complexity and cost > of developing an inexpensive reference platform > VxWorks/Tornado > > PSos > > > > > > Other possible choices for an OS include: Windows CE (I have been quoted > around $65 per copy from AnnaSoft. They are the Microsoft authorized > supplier of Windows OS products to small OEM customers.) > > Hello, i havent followed this thread but if you are looking for a small tcp/ip GUI kernal, QNX is one of the most popular. Windows CE? if you are running a network i dont u nderstand how you could implemnt Windows CE... Its like saying i want to start a network using netwon OS. Qnx microkernal is a very small gui kernel . 73,kf4myn From Administrator Tue Jul 15 08:56:24 1997 Received: from emshqs1.ncr.disa.mil (emshqs1.ncr.disa.mil [164.117.144.115]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA12400 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 08:56:14 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199707151356.IAA12400@tapr.org> Received: by emshqs1.ncr.disa.mil with Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) id <3BJ1CZTK>; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:54:56 -0400 From: Administrator at HQS3 To: "ss@tapr.org " Subject: Message not deliverable Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 09:52:00 -0400 X-Priority: 3 MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1458.49) Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BC9105.268ADCF0" This message is in MIME format. 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IQ== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BC9105.268ADCF0-- From N5RG@aol.com Tue Jul 15 11:20:54 1997 Received: from emout30.mail.aol.com (emout30.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.135]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA22117 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 11:20:52 -0500 (CDT) From: N5RG@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout30.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id MAA16962 for ss@tapr.org; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 12:20:20 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970715121818_-90490417@emout13.mail.aol.com> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1613] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Phil: > >My next question is: How can the receiver aquire and maintain lock on the > >transmitted sequence without using a highly accurate clock synchronized > >with the transmitter? > > Depends on the specific system, of course (remember "SS" is a generic term). > I'll describe direct sequence, as it's the system I'm most familar with. > Thanks for taking the time to give me the info. It did greatly help me to understand how it works. 73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG & W5PAG From lfry@mindspring.com Tue Jul 15 20:14:57 1997 Received: from brickbat9.mindspring.com (brickbat9.mindspring.com [207.69.200.12]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA13184 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 20:14:56 -0500 (CDT) Received: from glory (user-2k7i185.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.5.5]) by brickbat9.mindspring.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA13703 for ; Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:14:54 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970716011935.01863e54@mindspring.com> X-Sender: lfry@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 15 Jul 1997 21:19:35 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Lee W. Fry" Subject: Re: [SS:1614] Re: Ethernet Interface At 07:38 AM 7/15/97 -0500, Christopher Chow wrote: >Hello, i havent followed this thread but if you are looking for a small >tcp/ip GUI kernal, QNX is one of the most popular. Windows CE? if you are >running a network i dont u nderstand how you could implemnt Windows CE... >Its like saying i want to start a network using netwon OS. > > >Qnx microkernal is a very small gui kernel . > I just saw an ad in the new Byte magazine that QNX is offering a demo of a system that will boot from a 1.44 floppy, do tcp/ip, http etc. See http://www.qnx.com/iat/index.html I don't know what the developer and run-time license costs for QNX are though. Standard disclaimer - no connection with QNX - yadda yadda.... Lee - AA0JP From darnell@binmedia.com Wed Jul 16 11:04:46 1997 Received: from gumby.binmedia.com ([204.140.236.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA16563 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 11:04:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [206.117.173.2] by gumby.binmedia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12756) with SMTP id AAB186 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 08:56:44 -0700 Subject: Re: [SS:1617] Re: Ethernet Interface Date: Wed, 16 Jul 97 09:04:42 -0700 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 2.0, March 15, 1997 From: darnell@binmedia.com (Darnell Gadberry) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19970716155643329.AAB186@[206.117.173.2]> > >I just saw an ad in the new Byte magazine that QNX is offering a demo of a >system that will boot from a 1.44 floppy, do tcp/ip, http etc. See >http://www.qnx.com/iat/index.html > >I don't know what the developer and run-time license costs for QNX are >though. > >Standard disclaimer - no connection with QNX - yadda yadda.... > >Lee - AA0JP > Lee, I downloaded the sample and it runs quite nicely. It does indeed boot from a 1.44Mb floppy. However, the OS decompresses its binaries into RAM before execution. The system requires approximately 6MB of free RAM to operate. Last time we checked the QNX OS was somewhere around 1,500 for a development system with runtime licenses at approximately 35 - 50 bucks in small quantities. - darnell gadberry KE6UCL From lylej@azstarnet.com Wed Jul 16 20:58:08 1997 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (root@mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA05312 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 20:58:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ppp15.mmsi.com (usr13ip10.azstarnet.com [169.197.14.10]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA19942 for ; Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:58:00 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970716185648.006f7b28@pop.azstarnet.com> X-Sender: lylej@pop.azstarnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Wed, 16 Jul 1997 18:58:03 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Lyle Johnson Subject: Re: [SS:1606] Re: Ethernet Interface Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > Linux > Pros: > > Runs on a variety of > CPU architectures. > > Well Documented > > Very complete TCP/IP > support. > > Free > > GNU development tools are free and readily available. I could > craft a CD-ROM that contains the required compiler, linker and > debugger. > > Cons: > > Free (Free stuff is usually worth exactly what you pay for it.) We use this at work for deploying systems that cost roughly $1,000,000. It works well > > No central authority for major bug fixes. Who do we point the finger > at when an obscure bone-crunching bug brings down one of our major > backbone routers? Why point fingers? The *problem* with Win95, for example, is that you can point fingers all you want, but NO ONE CARES! The beauty of a Linux or other freely availbe O/S is that you have the source so if something goes wrong, rather than trying to find someone to point a finger at, you find it, fix it and share the fix. Forunately, because this is amateur radio, if a major node goes down, no one loses any revenue :-) > Relatively large memory footprint for this kind of embedded application. Memory is a heck of a lot cheaper than most royalties for O/S that you *have* to pay to get fixed instead of free ones that you can fix yourself, and learn in the proecess. > Windows CE > > Pros: > > Subset of the Win32 API. This means that we can leverage an incredible > body of software that has been written for Windows95 and NT. $65 and how seriously do you think anyone at MicroSoft will want to fix a reported bug from as small a user base as we'd ever be? > Java OS > Pros: > Written mostly in Java. Very easy to port to a new platform. > > > Cons: > Despite the hype. Java does not run very well on garden variety 20 MIPS > 32-bit processors. Truly acceptable performance requires 100 Mhz or > better 486 or Pentium class CPUs. Notice that all of the commercially > announced set-top boxes running Java OS employ a 120 Mhz RISC CPU. > This probably makes simple home construction of a copy of the reference > platform > Needless to say, this dramatically increases the complexity and cost > of developing an inexpensive reference platfor How fast does the non-trap-handler code have to be? The OS is written in C++/ASM, the applications are written in JAVA. Free-ware, clean-room JAVA O/S ports now exist. You trade speed for stability and portablility. JIT compilation significantly speeds up execution speed of JAVA apps. Any complier on any machine turns out the same byte-codes, so even Mac owners can contribute to the effort! 60 MIP processors (e.g., Hitachi SH-3) are $20, incoluding associative cache, etc. The processor plus lots of RAM is less than the license fee of commercial O/Ses... I'm not sure how much a DEC STRONGArm processor costs (200 MIPs) but it isn't very much... > VxWorks/Tornado > > PSos > >Other possible choices for an OS include: Windows CE (I have been quoted >around $65 per copy from AnnaSoft. They are the Microsoft authorized >supplier of Windows OS products to small OEM customers.) > Cheers, Lyle From n0udz@dialnet.net Thu Jul 17 07:15:14 1997 Received: from shell.dialnet.net (root@shell.dialnet.net [206.65.248.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA27400 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:15:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from shell.dialnet.net (shell.dialnet.net [206.65.248.2]) by shell.dialnet.net (8.8.5/8.8.4) with SMTP id HAA15374 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:15:12 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 07:15:12 -0500 (CDT) From: "N0UDZ (Dennis Chambers)" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1619] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970716185648.006f7b28@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I will concede that when all facts are considered Linux is most suited to the running of backbone network nodes, I do think that the runner up would be OS/2 which was not even listed. OS/2's only major drawback that I can see is that it does not yet have a micro-kernel architecture to allow it to break the Intel x86 architecture, but it is scheduled to be included in the next release of OS/2 Warp. The preceding has is my $.02 MSRP. All applicable taxes and fees paid. :) Dennis Chambers N0UDZ On Wed, 16 Jul 1997, Lyle Johnson wrote: > > Linux > > Pros: > > > > Runs on a variety of > > CPU architectures. > > > > Well Documented > > > > Very complete TCP/IP > > support. > > > > Free > > > > GNU development tools are free and readily available. I > could > > craft a CD-ROM that contains the required compiler, > linker and > > debugger. > > > > Cons: > > > > Free (Free stuff is usually worth exactly what you pay > for it.) > > We use this at work for deploying systems that cost roughly $1,000,000. It > works well > > > > > No central authority for major bug fixes. Who do we > point the finger > > at when an obscure bone-crunching bug brings down one of > our major > > backbone routers? > > Why point fingers? The *problem* with Win95, for example, is that you can > point fingers all you want, but NO ONE CARES! The beauty of a Linux or > other freely availbe O/S is that you have the source so if something goes > wrong, rather than trying to find someone to point a finger at, you find > it, fix it and share the fix. > > Forunately, because this is amateur radio, if a major node goes down, no > one loses any revenue :-) > > > Relatively large memory footprint for this kind of > embedded application. > > Memory is a heck of a lot cheaper than most royalties for O/S that you > *have* to pay to get fixed instead of free ones that you can fix yourself, > and learn in the proecess. > > > > Windows CE > > > > Pros: > > > > Subset of the Win32 API. This means that we can leverage > an incredible > > body of software that has been written for Windows95 and > NT. > > $65 and how seriously do you think anyone at MicroSoft will want to fix a > reported bug from as small a user base as we'd ever be? > > > Java OS > > Pros: > > Written mostly in Java. Very easy to port to a new > platform. > > > > > > Cons: > > Despite the hype. Java does not run very well on garden > variety 20 MIPS > > 32-bit processors. Truly acceptable performance requires > 100 Mhz or > > better 486 or Pentium class CPUs. Notice that all of the > commercially > > announced set-top boxes running Java OS employ a 120 Mhz > RISC CPU. > > This probably makes simple home construction of a copy > of the reference > > platform > > Needless to say, this dramatically increases the > complexity and cost > > of developing an inexpensive reference platfor > > How fast does the non-trap-handler code have to be? The OS is written in > C++/ASM, the applications are written in JAVA. Free-ware, clean-room JAVA > O/S ports now exist. You trade speed for stability and portablility. JIT > compilation significantly speeds up execution speed of JAVA apps. Any > complier on any machine turns out the same byte-codes, so even Mac owners > can contribute to the effort! > > 60 MIP processors (e.g., Hitachi SH-3) are $20, incoluding associative > cache, etc. The processor plus lots of RAM is less than the license fee of > commercial O/Ses... I'm not sure how much a DEC STRONGArm processor costs > (200 MIPs) but it isn't very much... > > > VxWorks/Tornado > > > > PSos > > > >Other possible choices for an OS include: Windows CE (I have been quoted > >around $65 per copy from AnnaSoft. They are the Microsoft authorized > >supplier of Windows OS products to small OEM customers.) > > > > Cheers, > > Lyle > From jtmiii@uisx.skd.com Thu Jul 17 08:19:53 1997 Received: from n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us [199.92.98.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA00804 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 08:19:41 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n1nhs (unverified [199.92.98.2]) by n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:19:39 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970717091939.00995880@uisx.skd.com> X-Sender: jtmiii@uisx.skd.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:19:39 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "James T. McCartney III" Subject: Re: [SS:1618] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <19970716155643329.AAB186@[206.117.173.2]> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Yup, QNX is YAEOS (yet another embedded OS) which is widely available. Others are PSOS, VxWorks, Lynx and a host of others. Usually, these OS's are fairly full featured, offer both physical or virtual memory support, TCP/IP stacks (of varying quality I might add) and the ability to get down and dirty with the hardware. Most started prior to the VME bus, grew up on VME, and are now migrating to have board support for PMD/PCI modules. As they are typically sold into environments where either a) "We are developing a high volume product, which we will sell for around (a few hundred to a few thousand) bucks, a high development license is not an issue. After all, if we spend 10 grand, it saves us at least twice that in development time/cost.' or b) "We are developing a custom soulution for a customer who needs to do and since the cost of the system is part of a <$100,000 to multi-million> job, cost is a concern, but not a driving issue. After all, if we spend 10 grand, it saves us at least twice that in development time/cost.' So these OS offerings are not for the faint of heart. They are as a rule very good workhorses, but don't expect them to come cheap. BTW, why does everyone fawn over Linux when FreeBSD is just as viable at the same price? James At 11:09 AM 7/16/97 -0500, you wrote: >> >>I just saw an ad in the new Byte magazine that QNX is offering a demo of a >>system that will boot from a 1.44 floppy, do tcp/ip, http etc. See >>http://www.qnx.com/iat/index.html >> >>I don't know what the developer and run-time license costs for QNX are >>though. >> >>Standard disclaimer - no connection with QNX - yadda yadda.... >> >>Lee - AA0JP >> > >Lee, > >I downloaded the sample and it runs quite nicely. It does indeed boot >from a 1.44Mb floppy. However, the OS decompresses its binaries into RAM >before execution. The system requires approximately 6MB of free RAM to >operate. > >Last time we checked the QNX OS was somewhere around 1,500 for a >development system with runtime licenses at approximately 35 - 50 bucks >in small quantities. > >- darnell gadberry KE6UCL > > From bbeech@ods.com Thu Jul 17 09:05:33 1997 Received: from icarus.ods.com (istwok.ods.com [192.94.73.11]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA03372 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ods.com by icarus.ods.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA11110; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:05:31 -0500 Received: from bbeech-pc.ods.com ([160.86.24.200]) by ods.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA02959; Thu, 17 Jul 97 09:10:05 CDT Message-Id: <33CE2774.72708FA2@ods.com> Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 09:08:52 -0500 From: Bill Beech Organization: ODS Networks X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.01 [en] (Win95; I) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1619] Re: Ethernet Interface X-Priority: 3 (Normal) References: <3.0.32.19970716185648.006f7b28@pop.azstarnet.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lyle Johnson wrote: > > Linux > > Pros: [deleted] Lyle, I agree with you. I have been using Linux for several years, and have been impressed with the performance and reliability. And with the complete source code, if it does not do something I want, I can correct it. Isn't there a group under linux working on a small kernel for real-time apps? I have seen references to a small kernel. 73 Bill, NJ7P From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jul 17 11:01:06 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool4-019.wwa.com [207.241.60.212]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA10554 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 11:01:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA06370 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:06:43 -0500 Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 10:06:41 -0500 (CDT) From: "Frederick M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1621] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970717091939.00995880@uisx.skd.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, James T. McCartney III wrote: > Yup, QNX is YAEOS (yet another embedded OS) which is widely available. Others > are PSOS, VxWorks, Lynx and a host of others. Usually, these OS's are fairly > full featured, offer both physical or virtual memory support, TCP/IP stacks > > So these OS offerings are not for the faint of heart. They are as a rule > very good workhorses, but don't expect them to come cheap. BTW, why does > everyone fawn over Linux when FreeBSD is just as viable at the same price? > Reason from someone who uses both commercially: FreeBSD - More stable, and better suited for straight network apps. (No flames, Linux people, I *love* Linux) Some BSDI commercial programs run, but usually not without much fiddling. Control over the OS development is by a central body of BSD guys, and hence development is slower for FreeBSD. And its next to imposible to get help from these guys. One FreeBSD webserver we sold has run unattended for over a year without a reboot and is quite heavily loaded. Linux - Not that much less stable, much more utilities, programming tools, user support, much more commercial vendor support, MUCH MUCH more hardware support. Has a dedicated developer and user base that far exceeds FreeBSDs. Kernel development is still overseen by Linus Torvalds but any Joe with an improvement can submit it and most likely if its good and works, it'll become part of the OS. This expidites the OS development greatly, but at the cost of some stability. AX.25 support is better in Linux, this will make any of our amateur development easier. And in my experience, if you get stuck, it's far easier to get an answer from a Linux guy than a FreeBSD. Linux is much like a religion, really! And yes, I'm a believer. Our newer Linux (we sell a streaming video product that has no vendor support for FreeBSD) webservers generally last 3-6 months w/o a reboot, the later ones haven't been rebooted at all. I would guess that if linux wasn't so feature packed, the stability would be better. After all, you can expect some problems from a server that runs ftpd, nntpd, dns, Samba networking, Novell Server emu, Novell Client emu, httpd, nfsd, etc.etc.etc... There's a lot of potential for misconfiguration when your running 20+ servers at once! AND without a doubt, both FreeBSD and Linux are infinately better than any Microsoft CRAP. If you don't believe this check out the same hardware running NT4/IIS and Linux/Apache or FreeBSD/Apache. The difference is quite laughable. :) And the un*xes don't crash! Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com From bad@uhf.wireless.net Thu Jul 17 12:51:02 1997 Received: from uhf.wdc.net (uhf.4d.net [207.137.157.140]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA22411 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 12:50:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (bad@localhost) by uhf.wdc.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA01925 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:53:04 -0400 (EDT) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 13:53:03 -0400 (EDT) From: Bernie Doehner X-Sender: bad@uhf.wdc.net To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1623] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > AX.25 support is better in Linux, this will make any of our amateur > development easier. And in my experience, if you get stuck, it's far > easier to get an answer from a Linux guy than a FreeBSD. Linux is much > like a religion, really! And yes, I'm a believer. I must be crazy for asking you this, but where do I get an ax.25 kit for FreeBSD 2.2.2? Bernie From nielsen@primenet.com Thu Jul 17 16:49:21 1997 Received: from usr05.primenet.com (root@usr05.primenet.com [206.165.5.105]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA07039 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 16:49:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nielsen.tus.primenet.com (nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com [198.68.42.82]) by usr05.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03277; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:49:05 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 14:48:33 -0700 (MST) From: Bob Nielsen X-Sender: nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com To: Bernie Doehner cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1624] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Bernie Doehner wrote: > > AX.25 support is better in Linux, this will make any of our amateur > > development easier. And in my experience, if you get stuck, it's far > > easier to get an answer from a Linux guy than a FreeBSD. Linux is much > > like a religion, really! And yes, I'm a believer. > > I must be crazy for asking you this, but where do I get an ax.25 kit for > FreeBSD 2.2.2? Believe me, it would be far easier to install Linux, but you could theoretically get the sources and hack away at things until you got it to work. A lot of it is in the Linux kernel, however, so it would be quite a task. See the AX25-HOWTO at sunsite.unc.edu in /pub/Linux/docs/HOWTO for further information, but the kernel patches and AX.25 utilities are at ftp.pspt.fi in /pub/ham/linux/ax25. The latest stuff is kinda nice, although development is still happening. Bob ---- Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen From lylej@azstarnet.com Thu Jul 17 20:17:56 1997 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (root@mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA29235 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 20:17:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ppp15.mmsi.com (usr9ip10.azstarnet.com [169.197.10.10]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id SAA15128 for ; Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:17:49 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970717174721.006f437c@pop.azstarnet.com> X-Sender: lylej@pop.azstarnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 17 Jul 1997 18:17:50 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Lyle Johnson Subject: Re: [SS:1622] Re: Ethernet Interface Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 09:08 AM 7/17/97 -0500, you wrote: >Lyle Johnson wrote: > >> > Linux >> > Pros: > >[deleted] > >Lyle, I agree with you. I have been using Linux for several years, and >have been impressed with the performance and reliability. And with the >complete source code, if it does not do something I want, I can correct >it. > >Isn't there a group under linux working on a small kernel for real-time >apps? I have seen references to a small kernel. > >73 >Bill, NJ7P > Yes, it is called ELKS (embeded linux kernal system, I htink). CHeers, Lyle From dewayne@warpspeed.com Fri Jul 18 15:48:25 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (WA8DZP@odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA00951 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 15:48:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:48:08 -0700 X-Sender: dewayne@odo.warpspeed.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 13:47:36 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Harris PRISM(TM) Chip Set: World`s First To Comply With 802.11 Communications Standard SS List: The press release below was just issued by Harris and I decided to post it to the list as I thought that it would be of general interest. -- Dewayne Harris PRISM(TM) Chip Set: World`s First To Comply With 802.11 Communications Standard PRISM(TM) Was First 2.4GHz Direct Sequence Chip Set - Now World`s First Again <> July 18, 1997 MELBOURNE, Fla., July 17 /PRNewswire/ via Individual Inc. -- Harris Semiconductor announced that its PRISM(TM) product, a complete radio chip set for direct sequence spread spectrum (DSSS) data communications in wireless local area networks (WLANs), fully complies to the Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) new 802.11 standard just approved June 26. The PRISM chip set includes six highly integrated microcircuits that handle "antenna-to-bits" signal processing -- from the reception of high frequency radio waves through various stages of signal conversion and processing to a digital bit stream. "Harris was the first company to offer any such complete wireless chip set for the 2.4GHz spectrum, and is still the only company in the world to offer a product of this type that complies with the newly approved standard," said Mick Denham, vice president of signal processing products at Harris Semiconductor. "Moreover, this is only the first product coming out of a massive and ongoing R&D effort aimed at inventing innovative solutions for the fast growing wireless local area network (WLAN) market, projected to grow to over $1 billion by 2001. Our next major announcement will be for a wireless solution with 10 megabits per second (Mbps) data rate, introduced by year- end." Regarding the approval of the 802.11 standard, Denham said, "We're delighted the standard is now approved because it assures interoperability between end equipment, giving equipment manufacturers the confidence to invest in products for this high growth market. Because of that, a big part of our wireless data communications R&D effort was vigorous support for getting a worldwide standard drafted and approved." According to Denham, Harris has four voting members on the committee and the company has been a major contributor in drafting and supporting this standard. "This new standard will do for wireless local area networks what similar standards did for wired Ethernet, Internet Protocol (IP) and LANs. It's extremely gratifying and exciting to have an approved standard -- it will help drive further market growth," Denham said. At present, the 802.11 standard defines wireless LAN communications in the 2.4GHz radio spectrum at a maximum data communications rate of 2Mbps. Harris' senior 802.11 committee member Al Petrick, strategic marketing manager for wireless products, expects that -- with the initial 802.11 standard now approved -- the committee will begin defining standards of operation at higher data rates and frequencies. "I believe the committee will quickly begin the process of defining data communications at 10Mbps. Such an extension to the standard might be developed and approved as early as spring of next year." In fact, during the 802 Plenary held in Maui July 7-10, the 802.11 Working Group of 60 members approved a Project Authorization Request (PAR) for submission to the 802 Executive Committee in the fall, Petrick reports. Once approved, the committee can begin definition of operation at data rates in the 10Mbps area. The committee is expected to begin work defining operation in the 5GHz frequency band after that. Harris has been pursuing an aggressive roadmap to higher frequency and higher data rate wireless communications, helped in large part by its early success with the initial PRISM chip set introduced to the market over a year ago. Harris was the first to have a complete radio chip set and teamed early with AMD who developed PCnet(TM)-Mobile, a wireless LAN media access controller (MAC) with associated software driver and 802.11 protocol firmware. "Our partnership with Harris has significantly lowered barriers to entry into the wireless LAN market," said Cyrus Namazi, AMD's wireless LAN product marketing manager. "The combination of AMD's PCnet-Mobile and Harris' PRISM chip set provides a shorter total time to market, a lower overall system cost, and superior perf ormance. With the 802.11 standard now in place, we are excited to continue our full support toward the implementation of fully compliant solutions." Harris also teamed with Celestica who manufactures the system on a PC card (formerly called PCMCIA card). "The result of that effort is a complete wireless communications adapter that plugs into a laptop, desktop PC, or handheld PC and provides data communications for wireless local area networking," Petrick explained. The adapter cards are included in Harris evaluation kits that have been in the hands of hundreds of customers for over a year, allowing quick evaluation of a working system. "Working with customers using our evaluation kits gives us a glimpse into their product roadmaps," Petrick said. "We find that they want to migrate to higher data rates in the future, plus operate in the higher, less crowded frequencies. Our roadmap was put in place to address those future needs, so we're working now on moving to 10 and 25Mbps speed in data transmission, as well as moving into the 5GHz and higher radio frequencies." Since transmitting more data per second is a high priority, Harris invented a new modulation technique that will soon demonstrate operation at 1OMbps data rates, still operating in the unlicensed 2.4GHz frequency range. Harris is working to get FCC approval of this technique now. Harris plans to make announcements on this higher data rate WLAN chip set by the end of 1997. Parallel to that effort is developing advanced highly integrated circuits that can handle much higher frequencies. Harris has foundry access to silicon germanium (SiGe), which the company believes will allow manufacture of future chips that transmit and receive in the 5GHz, then 10GHz frequencies. Harris also plans to develop PRISM-based chip set solutions that are cost- and feature-optimized for an emerging home consumer market. Market research indicates that homes of the future will feature many devices -- PCs, printers, phones, speakers, etc. -- connected wirelessly to a local area network within the home that is ported to outside wired services such as the Internet, cable or phone networks. That market requires low cost wireless connections and Harris has a major initiative underway to develop wireless products to meet those requirements. Harris' overall wireless strategy is to offer complete chip set solutions with all the critical RF analog, digital and mixed-signal ICs included. This, along with complete reference design information, evaluation boards and expert applications support, provides equipment manufacturers with the shortest time- to-production for releasing new products to emerging markets. Harris is currently offering this type of complete solution for wireless LAN data transmission at 2.4GHz and wireless local loop applications in the 2.OGHz to 2.7GHz range. In the future, Harris will offer solutions for PCS as well as higher frequency, higher data rate LANs. Harris Corporation's Semiconductor sector manufactures discrete semiconductors and ICs and focuses on the communications, multimedia and power control markets. The company has sales offices worldwide and manufacturing facilities in Palm Bay, Fla.; Mountaintop, Penn.; Findlay, Ohio; Dundalk, Ireland; and Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia. Harris Corporation (NYSE: HRS), with worldwide sales of more than $3.6 billion, is an international communications and electronics company providing a wide range of products and services, such as wireless and personal communications, automotive electronics, transportation, business information, defense communications and information, and Lanier office products. PRISM is a registered trademark of Harris Corporation. PCnet-Mobile is a registered trademark of Advanced Micro Devices SOURCE Harris Corporation /CONTACT: John S. Allen, Senior Manager, Public Relations, Harris Corporation, 407-729-4928, or fax, 407-729-5312, or e-mail, jallen02@harris.com; or Jeff Feldman, FS Communications, 415-691-1488/ (HRS) [Copyright 1997, PR Newswire] From porter@neta.com Fri Jul 18 18:00:25 1997 Received: from trojan.neta.com (trojan.neta.com [204.177.236.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA08330 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:00:17 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (porter@localhost) by trojan.neta.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id QAA04640 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:00:58 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 16:00:57 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew D. Porter" X-Sender: porter@trojan Reply-To: "Matthew D. Porter" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1626] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970717174721.006f437c@pop.azstarnet.com> Message-ID: Return-Receipt-To: porter@neta.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 17 Jul 1997, Lyle Johnson wrote: > >Isn't there a group under linux working on a small kernel for real-time > >apps? I have seen references to a small kernel. > > > >73 > >Bill, NJ7P > > > Yes, it is called ELKS (embeded linux kernal system, I htink). But it is more or less targeted at 8086/8 processors for now. The whole design is done for x86 in real mode so it has some severe limitations on the kernel size. It will be a long time before there is any real networking code. It does, however, boot real nice on my old PC/XT, bring up some VT's, and can run some _small_ programs. There are several people talking about ports to 68000 and other older processors. Matt Porter KB8UVI Email with "Subject: sendkey" for PGP key Chandler, AZ porter@neta.com From dan@lakeweb.net Fri Jul 18 21:02:20 1997 Received: from zapcom.net (zapcom.net [208.201.240.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA27761 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:02:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: from booboo (ppp2-21.zapcom.net [208.201.240.72]) by zapcom.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id TAA07725 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 19:02:26 -0700 Message-ID: <33D01F7A.66C3@lakeweb.net> Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 18:59:22 -0700 From: dan Reply-To: dan@lakeweb.net Organization: lakeWeb Internet http://www.lakeweb.com/ X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: digest 360 References: <199707171328.IAA01078@tapr.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I have finaly gotten the catalog that I had ordered the Ku band lnb from. PETRA sells it: LNB #PERGLNBFS single feed $35.50 DISH #PERSS18 18' Dish $28.90 The phone: 1.800.443.6975 The order came into me for a little more than $80.00 with shipping. I also make a strong vote for Linux. Best, Dan. kj6fi http://www.lakeweb.com/ From jtmiii@uisx.skd.com Fri Jul 18 21:53:33 1997 Received: from n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us [199.92.98.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA00263 for ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 21:52:45 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n1nhs (unverified [199.92.98.2]) by n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:52:40 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970718225240.0099a780@uisx.skd.com> X-Sender: jtmiii@uisx.skd.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Fri, 18 Jul 1997 22:52:40 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "James T. McCartney III" Subject: Re: [SS:1628] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19970717174721.006f437c@pop.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Off the thread of the subject so sorry... Why would they want to restrict it to REAL mode for goodness sake? Just because you turn on the pageing doesn't mean you aren't real time. I've built some real time systems on machines which didn't have a non-virtual mode and yes, if it ever page faulted, you lost big time - no disk! So we turned that into an advantage during the development cycle... replaced the pager with a traceback facility that told us where we had gone wrong. BTW, the real time system I'm working on now currently has a sub-milisecond response time and an in-memory database of 64MB - couldn't do that with any lowly REAL mode X86 anything. When the minimum increment of DRAM is practically 16MB why bother with real mode? What would be good is a flat model 32bit romable (don't need no stinkin' doz) kernel that can reach all of memory without funky memory extenders... James At 06:03 PM 7/18/97 -0500, you wrote: ... >> Yes, it is called ELKS (embeded linux kernal system, I htink). > >But it is more or less targeted at 8086/8 processors for now. The whole >design is done for x86 in real mode so it has some severe limitations on >the kernel size. It will be a long time before there is any real >networking code. It does, however, boot real nice on my old PC/XT, bring >up some VT's, and can run some _small_ programs. > >There are several people talking about ports to 68000 and other older >processors. > >Matt Porter KB8UVI Email with "Subject: sendkey" for PGP key >Chandler, AZ porter@neta.com > > From porter@neta.com Sun Jul 20 17:53:32 1997 Received: from trojan.neta.com (trojan.neta.com [204.177.236.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA07939 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 17:53:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (porter@localhost) by trojan.neta.com (8.8.6/8.8.6) with SMTP id PAA15660 for ; Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:54:28 -0500 (EST) Date: Sun, 20 Jul 1997 15:53:35 -0500 (EST) From: "Matthew D. Porter" X-Sender: porter@trojan To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1630] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: <3.0.1.32.19970718225240.0099a780@uisx.skd.com> Message-ID: Return-Receipt-To: porter@neta.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 18 Jul 1997, James T. McCartney III wrote: > Why would they want to restrict it to REAL mode for goodness sake? Just > because you turn on the pageing doesn't mean you aren't real time. I've > built some real time systems on machines which didn't have a non-virtual > mode and yes, if it ever page faulted, you lost big time - no disk! So we > turned that into an advantage during the development cycle... replaced the > pager with a traceback facility that told us where we had gone wrong. > > BTW, the real time system I'm working on now currently has a sub-milisecond > response time and an in-memory database of 64MB - couldn't do that with any > lowly REAL mode X86 anything. > > When the minimum increment of DRAM is practically 16MB why bother with real > mode? What would be good is a flat model 32bit romable (don't need no stinkin' > doz) kernel that can reach all of memory without funky memory extenders... > That's just the machine base they are targetting. The developers are trying to do something with all those old "useless" machines that are given away free. Then name is misleading IMHO, since most of us are using it to run on desktop XT machines. There is an RTLinux (Real Time Linux) page somewhere there for anybody interested in a real protected mode real-time Linux, though. Matt Porter KB8UVI Email with "Subject: sendkey" for PGP key Chandler, AZ porter@neta.com From lehoda01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu Mon Jul 21 19:22:59 1997 Received: from starbase.spd.louisville.edu (lehoda01@starbase.spd.louisville.edu [136.165.99.61]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA05425 for ; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:22:57 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from lehoda01@localhost) by starbase.spd.louisville.edu (8.8.6/8.6.12) id UAA28062 for ss@tapr.org; Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) From: Leo E Hodapp Message-Id: <199707220022.UAA28062@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> Subject: Removal from list To: ss@tapr.org Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4ME+ PL19 (25)] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Could I please be removed from this list. Thanks, Lee From topcats@hotmail.com Tue Jul 22 07:43:38 1997 Received: from mail.tds.net (mail.tds.net [204.246.1.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA05532 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:43:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nlmn1-a05.midstate.tds.net (nlmn1-a05.midstate.tds.net [207.49.210.70]) by mail.tds.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA10859 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:43:34 -0500 (CDT) From: topcats@hotmail.com (topcat) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1632] Removal from list Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 12:43:35 GMT Organization: alley cats Reply-To: topcats@hotmail.com Message-ID: <33d6aad9.86726926@mail.tds.net> References: <199707220022.UAA28062@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> In-Reply-To: <199707220022.UAA28062@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> X-Mailer: Forte Agent 1.01/32.397 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On Mon, 21 Jul 1997 19:23:47 -0500 (CDT), you sopke loudly: >Could I please be removed from this list. >Thanks, >Lee > fuck no!!! From Monte.Tremont@nextel.com Tue Jul 22 07:57:34 1997 Received: from mail-oak-2.pilot.net (mail-oak-2.pilot.net [198.232.147.17]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA06589 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 07:57:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: from alchpns1.dialcall.com (unknown-2-9.dialcall.com [170.206.2.9]) by mail-oak-2.pilot.net with SMTP id FAA00706; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 05:57:23 -0700 (PDT) Received: from ccmail.nextel.com by alchpns1.dialcall.com (8.6.10/1.34) id IAA25011; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:13 -0400 Received: from ccMail by ccmail.nextel.com (IMA Internet Exchange 2.1 Enterprise) id 0002AED1; Tue, 22 Jul 97 08:54:23 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:59:06 -0400 Message-ID: <0002AED1.@nextel.com> From: Monte.Tremont@nextel.com (Monte Tremont) Subject: Re: [SS:1632] Removal from list To: ss@tapr.org, Leo E Hodapp Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part I am also trying to get disconnected from all @tapr.org that constantly clog my Email. Also lately I now receive a copy of (as BCC) every one else that tries to leave this newsgroup. HELP TAPR !!! ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: [SS:1632] Removal from list Author: Leo E Hodapp at INTERNET Date: 7/21/97 7:23 PM Could I please be removed from this list. Thanks, Lee From nielsen@primenet.com Tue Jul 22 10:53:39 1997 Received: from usr07.primenet.com (root@usr07.primenet.com [206.165.6.207]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA15363 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 10:53:37 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nielsen.tus.primenet.com (nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com [198.68.42.82]) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA25023; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:28 -0700 (MST) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 08:53:27 -0700 (MST) From: Bob Nielsen X-Sender: nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com To: Monte Tremont , lehoda01@starbase.spd.louisville, edu@primenet.com cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1634] Re: Removal from list In-Reply-To: <0002AED1.@nextel.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 22 Jul 1997, Monte Tremont wrote: > I am also trying to get disconnected from all @tapr.org that > constantly clog my Email. Also lately I now receive a copy of (as BCC) > every one else that tries to leave this newsgroup. HELP TAPR !!! > > > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ > Subject: [SS:1632] Removal from list > Author: Leo E Hodapp at INTERNET > Date: 7/21/97 7:23 PM > > > Could I please be removed from this list. > Thanks, > Lee >From the directions: Send a message to 'listproc@tapr.org' with one of the following lines as the message portion: unsubscribe signoff Bob ---- Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen From sotoole@zinet.com Tue Jul 22 16:58:04 1997 Received: from news.quiknet.com (mail2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA13639 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zinet.com ([207.183.255.129]) by news.quiknet.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12335) with SMTP id AAA3397 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:00:21 -0700 Received: from polarnoid (206.248.78.194) by zinet.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.80) with SMTP id ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:53:09 +0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 15:53:09 +0000 Message-ID: X-Sender: sotoole@zinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: sotoole@zinet.com (Steve O'Toole) Subject: Re: [SS:1632] SS digest 364 > SS Digest 364 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Removal from list > by Leo E Hodapp > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) >From: Leo E Hodapp >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: Removal from list >Message-ID: <199707220022.UAA28062@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> > >Could I please be removed from this list. >Thanks, >Lee > > >------------------------------ > >End of SS Digest 364 >******************** >Alright-allready From sotoole@zinet.com Tue Jul 22 17:06:31 1997 Received: from news.quiknet.com (mail2.quiknet.com [207.183.249.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA14227 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 17:06:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from zinet.com ([207.183.255.129]) by news.quiknet.com (post.office MTA v2.0 0813 ID# 0-12335) with SMTP id AAA4203 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 15:08:52 -0700 Received: from polarnoid (206.248.78.194) by zinet.com (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.80) with SMTP id ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:01:40 +0000 Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 16:01:40 +0000 Message-ID: X-Sender: sotoole@zinet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: sotoole@zinet.com (Steve O'Toole) Subject: Re: [SS:1632] SS digest 364 > SS Digest 364 > >Topics covered in this issue include: > > 1) Removal from list > by Leo E Hodapp > >---------------------------------------------------------------------- > >Date: Mon, 21 Jul 1997 20:22:51 -0400 (EDT) >From: Leo E Hodapp >To: ss@tapr.org >Subject: Removal from list >Message-ID: <199707220022.UAA28062@starbase.spd.louisville.edu> > >Could I please be removed from this list. >Thanks, >Lee > > >------------------------------ > >End of SS Digest 364 >******************** >I said alright already enough with the requests... From dewayne@warpspeed.com Tue Jul 22 18:24:16 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA17786 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 18:24:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2); Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:24:09 -0700 X-Sender: dewayne@odo.warpspeed.com Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 16:24:04 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Spread Spectrum articles in CQ VHF I'd like to call everyone's attention to the August '97 issue of 'CQ VHF'. There are two excellant articles there on SS. They are: 1. "Spread Spectrum - Yesterday and Today" by Steve Bible, N7HPR p.32 2. "The Debate over Spread Spectrum" by Rich Moseson, W2VU p.26 The first article by Steve goes over a bit of SS history including the famous Costas paper and then covers some of SS's current uses in the commercial sector. The second article by Rich (who is also the editor of 'CQ VHF') is a very good overview of all of the comments/reply comments that were filed on the recent SS NPRM (FCC Docket 97-12). For those of you who fell asleep reading thru all of that paper (or words on the TAPR website), its a good way to find out what everyone said on the issue. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From karn@qualcomm.com Tue Jul 22 23:52:55 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA15999 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 23:52:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id VAA19520; Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 22 Jul 1997 21:52:11 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707230452.VAA19520@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33CAF6F1.5919@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Mon, 14 Jul 1997 23:05:05 -0500) Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? >> This is a rather wasteful use of spectrum. > How so? DDMA-WAN is narrower in BW than a CDMA system at the same >baud rate. Since it uses antenna off-boresite rejection to allow for a >lesser processing gain. And lesser processing gain results in a narrower Gain antennas are certainly helpful, but you're still using a signal with greater spectral density than you need. That means within the beamwidth of your antenna you're causing more interference to distant co-channel users than you really have to. > The FCC considers that for every 3 dB increase in antenna gain, only a >1 dB decrease in power level is needed to maintain the same illumination >contours. If, one drops the power to only what one needs to do the >communication, for every 3 dB gain in transmitter antenna gain, one can >decrease illuminated area by 2 dB. And this does not even consider the >second 3 dB power reduction possible if the receive antenna gain tracks >the transmitter, in the system design. I suspect this rule accounts for the usual greater-than-inverse-square propagation loss on most terrestrial paths. Empirically the loss is generally about inverse-fourth once you're outside the immediate line-of-sight area. Again, I don't want to discount the usefulness of directional antennas, but they don't completely compensate for using a more wasteful modulation/coding method. > Yes, this is true. Which is why i used the SAW device only as a >model. To prove that the Matched Filter Technigue could decode in one >symbol time. Again, any device is ultimately limited by the mathematics that describe the process it peforms. > So, I see this is similar to the SAW matched filter technigue. Some >time during the period, the convolution reaches a correlation peak power >level, which is coincident with the time alignment of the received >signal, and the local PN sequence. If the symbol clock is aligned with >this time, its aligned with the received data symbol. Does this make >sense? Right. Any PN correlator, no matter how it is implemented, will behave the same way. And it is important to remember that no matter how you implement the correlator, you *must* dwell on each particular time alignment long enough to integrate sufficient energy to actually recognize that you've got the right timing. That's fundamental. Here are the only ways I know of to speed up an SS acquisition: 1. Use excessive transmitter power or oversized antennas to make the SNR so high that you don't have to wait very long on each time offset to accumulate a signficant amount of despread energy. 2. Use a short PN code so you don't have as many hypotheses to search. (GPS uses a short 1023-chip C/A code for acquisition.) 3. Use multiple correlators to test many hypotheses in parallel. (Multi-channel GPS receivers do this.) 4. Use a-priori information to first search those parts of the sequence space that are more likely to be correct. (GPS receivers do this when warm-starting). Phil From jtmiii@uisx.skd.com Wed Jul 23 01:19:51 1997 Received: from n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us [199.92.98.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id BAA05971 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 01:19:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n1nhs (unverified [199.92.98.2]) by n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:19:36 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970723021936.009219c0@uisx.skd.com> X-Sender: jtmiii@uisx.skd.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 02:19:36 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "James T. McCartney III" Subject: Re: [SS:1630] Re: Ethernet Interface In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.1.32.19970718225240.0099a780@uisx.skd.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" At 11:16 AM 7/19/97 -0700, you wrote: >Also, it looks as if they want to run on '88/'86 and '188 type h/w. You may >not be aware that the '186 is quickly becoming _the_ embedded processor of >choice. What class of problem? Haven't seen very many high speed data applications built on 186 class machine. Maybe if you are doing something that controls a few relays, monitors a few a/d, talk rs232 or 485 I/O this it would do. Some of the apps I've been working on recently we are seriously concerned that a 233 MHz MPC860 won't do the data movement job. That doesn't even begin to address the DSP problem. >The usual reason that people don't use vm is a context swap penalty. What processor? On something like an ultraSparc maybe, but then again that is a machine with no physical mode anyway. Something like an Alpha the context swap is almost automagic, but can sometimes be delayed (at least for floating point context) so that if you get lucky you don't have to. For PowerPC, I'd have to go digging in the databook. For the CPU-32, push multiple, swap to super stack, done. Still, taking the cache miss because an interrupt went off may be as big a hit as the context swap. The interrupt definately flushes the pipeline, so you are already deep into it by the time the context swap happens. Also, if the machine does speculative write buffer combining, talking to an I/O device means you have to barrier the writes to ensure write ordering - stalled again. Otherwise setting the bit from one to zero, then back to one results in no transaction on the bus as the write buffer gobbles it all up. Been there, it sucks - lines don't draw in the place you expect them to... And then you can get into SMP configurations where processor one finishes the I/O started by processor two and exits the kernel before processor two has worked it's way back out of the driver... caught a bug in TTDRIVER on VMS like this once. Then again there's this Mobitex application I worked on that a lowly 6811 was overkill. Like you said what are the unstated assumptions? Some that I don't make are embedded == slow, embedded == cheap, embedded == small or embedded == large it all depends, and that's what makes engineering fun... James From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Wed Jul 23 14:40:52 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id OAA26843 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 14:20:27 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14777 ; Wed, 23 Jul 97 07:47:14 UTC Message-ID: <33D612E6.33AD@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:19:18 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Karn CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? References: <199707230452.VAA19520@servo.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, Power control works for CDMA, why wont it work with a gain antenna attached? > Gain antennas are certainly helpful, but you're still using a signal > with greater spectral density than you need. That means within the > beamwidth of your antenna you're causing more interference to distant > co-channel users than you really have to. With power control, with just enuf margin to get the signal to the next neighbor in the direction of the destination, the signal reaches only as far as it needs too. > I suspect this rule accounts for the usual greater-than-inverse-square > propagation loss on most terrestrial paths. Empirically the loss is > generally about inverse-fourth once you're outside the immediate > line-of-sight area. Again, I don't want to discount the usefulness of > directional antennas, but they don't completely compensate for using > a more wasteful modulation/coding method. The -1dBP/+3dBG rule is used for Point-to-Point terrestrial microwave. Point-to-Point terrestrial microwave does not have an inverse-fourth propagation characteristic. I believe the Inverse-fourth propagation characteristic is the model commonly used for Base to omni mobile/handheld. The DDMA-WAN is a short haul Point-to-Point system. Rooftop-to-Rooftop, with only the First Fresnel, or slightly beyond paths being used. First Fresnel paths have 6 dB less loss than freespace. As the path approaches grazing, the Fresnel loss kicks in pretty agressivly. The loss at grazing is typically 20 dB more than free space. That s a 26 dB additional loss. Can u see how at low antenna heights, in the microwaves, with very directional antennas, will make this work? Its not CDMA, Its not Cellular. Its versatilized Point-to-Point. Using enuf power to bridge the 6 dB less than free space path to the neighbor, it doesn t take much more distance to get that 26 dB more loss of the grazing path. In combination with directivty, and the 10 dB processing gain, (23 dB total system isolation gain) there is the posibility of reuse. The point is that process gain is not the solely available from Spread Spectrum. There are other ways to get isolation in a system design, for the purposes of reuse. Antenna directivity (off-boresite rejection), and DSSS Process gain can combine, to give the same results as an long DSSS code alone. Just because Antenna Directivity has been around some time, does not mean that its less useful. Just because DSSS process gain is useful, does not mean all system isolation gain should be DSSS derived. In a packet radio network, the goal is maximun thruput for the individual user for the bandwidth/area/time at some minimul BER. In a CDMA Cellular Phone system, the goal is the maximun number of toll quality channels, for the hardware investment. A toll quality channel is somewhere around 10 KB, with better than 10e-2 BER. This is a big difference than the packet radio network goal of getting maximun thruput, with the desire being a megabaud thruput to the imediate neighbors, and a worse case in excess of 100 kb thruput into the Internet. Its impractical for cellular telephone handheld devices to imploy azimuthally directive antennas, at the frequencies that are economic right now. So, its no wonder that CDMA IS-95 has all its system rejecting gain in CDMA process gain, and for the baud rate to be consequently low. In a Ham Radio packet network, we are mostly stationary users. We have space for antennas on roof tops, or other elevated location. We can make a system that has a 20 dB faster/bigger data rate/bandwidth. But, its not practical to make a system like that have all its system rejection gain from DSSS process gain. It is possible to have 10 dB in DSSS process gain. It is possible to get a another 13 dB in the antenna directivty. DDMA-WAN should be able to do the the Packet Radio goal. And not just between two stations. But when a network of stations, spread out the way hams typically are, is using the spectrum. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From karn@qualcomm.com Wed Jul 23 19:15:02 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA21583 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 19:14:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id RAA29439; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 23 Jul 1997 17:14:24 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707240014.RAA29439@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33D612E6.33AD@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Wed, 23 Jul 1997 09:19:18 -0500) Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? > Power control works for CDMA, why wont it work with a gain antenna >attached? I didn't say it wouldn't work. > With power control, with just enuf margin to get the signal to the >next neighbor in the direction of the destination, the signal reaches >only >as far as it needs too. RF always goes farther than you want it to. Even if you use power control to keep the received signal level at some threshold, choosing an inefficient modulation or coding scheme will cause that power to be higher than it otherwise would be. And that causes more interference to co-channel users even if they're not close enough to actually demodulate your signal. > The -1dBP/+3dBG rule is used for Point-to-Point terrestrial >microwave. Point-to-Point terrestrial microwave does not have an >inverse-fourth propagation characteristic. I believe the Inverse-fourth >propagation characteristic is the model commonly used for Base to omni >mobile/handheld. The desired point-to-point link is certainly inverse-square if it is line of sight. But the power rules are there to protect others who are *not* within line of sight to the transmitter. > The point is that process gain is not the solely available from >Spread Spectrum. There are other ways to get isolation in a system >design, for the purposes of reuse. Antenna directivity (off-boresite I agree with you on this. My only point is that even with directional antennas, you are still paying a price in capacity by using a less efficient modulation and coding method. But you may well be right that the price is acceptable, at least in the amateur environment. > In a packet radio network, the goal is maximun thruput for the >individual user for the bandwidth/area/time at some minimul BER. In a >CDMA Cellular Phone system, the goal is the maximun number of toll >quality channels, for the hardware investment. A toll quality channel >is somewhere around 10 KB, with better than 10e-2 BER. This is a big >difference than the packet radio network goal of getting maximun >thruput, with the desire being a megabaud thruput to the imediate >neighbors, and a worse case in excess of 100 kb thruput into the >Internet. We've analyzed packet radio applications as compared to digital voice, and they're really not any different in the sense that you describe. Where these applications *do* differ is in their tolerance of delay. Packet networking, particularly at high speed, is far more tolerant of delay than low speed voice, and this allows a very important architectural feature that is unavailable in cellular voice: cooperative relaying. It has been clearly shown that the way to maximize the capacity of a power-controlled store-and-forward packet radio network is to have each node communicate directly only with its nearest neighbors and to have those neighbors relay traffic for you. See Tim Shepard's PhD thesis (link from my web page). > Its impractical for cellular telephone handheld devices to >imploy azimuthally directive antennas, at the frequencies that are >economic right now. So, its no wonder that CDMA IS-95 has all its system >rejecting gain in CDMA process gain, and for the baud rate to be >consequently low. Gain antennas on the cellular *base stations* are quite practical, and are in fact used very heavily. They contribute substantially to system capacity, yet there is no talk of lessening the CDMA process gain. They're both important. Phil From bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Wed Jul 23 23:13:04 1997 Received: from lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org [44.135.96.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id XAA03538 for ; Wed, 23 Jul 1997 23:12:54 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from bm@localhost) by lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA10295 for ss@tapr.org; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:12:32 GMT From: Barry McLarnon VE3JF Message-Id: <199707240412.EAA10295@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 04:12:31 +0000 (GMT) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1641] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? In-Reply-To: <33D612E6.33AD@wb9mjn.ampr.org> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.1-961106-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Don Lemke wrote: > The DDMA-WAN is a short haul Point-to-Point system. > Rooftop-to-Rooftop, with only the First Fresnel, or slightly beyond > paths being used. First Fresnel paths have 6 dB less loss than > freespace. As the path approaches grazing, the Fresnel loss kicks in > pretty agressivly. The loss at grazing is typically 20 dB more than free > space. That s a 26 dB additional loss. Can u see how at low antenna > heights, in the microwaves, with very directional antennas, will make > this work? Its not CDMA, Its not Cellular. Its versatilized > Point-to-Point. Using enuf power to bridge the 6 dB less than free space > path to the neighbor, it doesn t take much more distance to get that 26 > dB more loss of the grazing path. In combination with directivty, and > the 10 dB processing gain, (23 dB total system isolation gain) there is > the posibility of reuse. It's a side issue to your main point, but I'm wondering where you get these numbers, especially the one about paths with first Fresnel clearance having 6 dB less loss than free space. It's true that you can have slightly less loss than free space with partial Fresnel clearance, but at most the gain is about 1.2 dB. This occurs within a fairly narrow range of clearances, so it's not something you should count on - you can just as easily have a path loss which is slightly worse than free space. The path loss oscillates above and below the free space value as the Fresnel clearance increases, but it rapidly converges on the free space value. The path loss at grazing incidence depends very much on the nature of the obstruction - if it is rounded (e.g., a hill), then the excess path loss could indeed be 20 dB or so, but if it is something closer to a knife edge, then the excess loss could be as little as 6 dB. The reuse distance may consequently be greater than you expect. Barry -- Barry McLarnon VE3JF/VA3TCP | Internet: bm@hydra.carleton.ca Ottawa Amateur Radio Club | AMPRnet: bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Packet Working Group | Web: http://hydra.carleton.ca From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Thu Jul 24 11:44:11 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id LAA01314 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:35:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14789 ; Thu, 24 Jul 97 08:26:17 UTC Message-ID: <33D76DF4.2E60@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:00:04 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Phil Karn CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? References: <199707240014.RAA29439@servo.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, Regarding: > > The point is that process gain is not the solely available from > >Spread Spectrum. There are other ways to get isolation in a system > >design, for the purposes of reuse. Antenna directivity (off-boresite > > I agree with you on this. My only point is that even with directional > antennas, you are still paying a price in capacity by using a less > efficient modulation and coding method. But you may well be right that > the price is acceptable, at least in the amateur environment. The baseband modulation in the STEL2000A is BPSK, or QPSK. And it does straight forward BPSK or QPSK DSSS spreading. QPSK is probably more efficient modulation than .5GFSK (K9NG/G3RUH, etc). I don t see how the DSSS is any more or less efficient coding than any other DSSS, if in the system the process gain is not overcome. But, hey, i m not an coding expert. > We've analyzed packet radio applications as compared to digital voice, > and they're really not any different in the sense that you describe. > Where these applications *do* differ is in their tolerance of delay. > Packet networking, particularly at high speed, is far more tolerant of > delay than low speed voice, and this allows a very important > architectural feature that is unavailable in cellular voice: > cooperative relaying. It has been clearly shown that the way to > maximize the capacity of a power-controlled store-and-forward packet > radio network is to have each node communicate directly only with its > nearest neighbors and to have those neighbors relay traffic for you. > See Tim Shepard's PhD thesis (link from my web page). > I agree that any DSSS (using full or partial CDMA) packet radio network should direct relayed traffic to the nearest neighbor, using power control. I ve been saying that for a year, if not 2 years, as a primary feature/requirement of a DDMA-WAN architecture. It grows out of the discussion regarding omni-cdma packet networks that was on one of the news groups, some years ago. Where it was concluded that to get maximun reuse and capacity, one should link only to the nearest neighbors. There is a slight difference with DDMA-WAN, however. Its the nearest neighbor down each beam direction, that can be communicated with, without interfering with the other neighbors. This would be an easy calculation that could be done by the controller, based on the negotiated power levels between two neighbors, and the table of powers previously generated with the other neighbors. > > Its impractical for cellular telephone handheld devices to > >imploy azimuthally directive antennas, at the frequencies that are > >economic right now. So, its no wonder that CDMA IS-95 has all its system > >rejecting gain in CDMA process gain, and for the baud rate to be > >consequently low. > > Gain antennas on the cellular *base stations* are quite practical, and > are in fact used very heavily. They contribute substantially to system > capacity, yet there is no talk of lessening the CDMA process > gain. They're both important. Well, I think its pretty hard for anybody to not realise that Cellular Base stations use azimuthally directive antennas, Phil. I did qualify my statement with the "cellular telephone handheld devices". In a Ham Packet radio system, since the participants are stationary, there s no reason the participants cannot all use azimuthally directive antennas. And square the directional antenna system benefits. This is a difference resulting in an advantage we could and should exploit. Within each CDMA Cellular Telephone sector, however, users are on various CDMA codes. The azimuth of the CDMA C.T. sector encompasses many users. DDMA-WAN design and operational goals is to have only one active neighbor being listened to by a station in the selected sector, at a time. And for each in-range active transmitter to be on a different DSSS code using only enuf power to be received by the intended communication partner. In DDMA-WAN both the directivty, and the DSSS code differentiates the various active transmitters in-range of a particular station. Even tho CDMA C.T. uses azimuthal sectors, it still has all its user-user differentiation in DSSS code. That s the meaning of CDMA, right? This is the way it has to be , because "cellular telephone handheld devices" do not have azimuthally directive antennas! The CDMA C.T. design goal is to have lots of users in range, versus the "nearest neighbor" of the Packet Radio network. And the CDMA C.T. design goal is to gather and disemenate to all the in-range users, simultaneously, versus TDMA/relay disemination of a Packet Radio network. And the CDMA C.T. design goal is to have as few, company- owned sites as possible, versus the participant/user supported facilities of the Ham Packet Radio network. Can you see how CDMA C.T. is better the way its designed, for its purpose, and how DDMA-WAN is better for the Ham Packet Radio? Can you see that there is no opportunity to do DDMA-WAN in Cellular Telephone or even in Cellular Data? DDMA-WAN is not Cellular, or micro-Cellular. Its versatile Point-to-Point. Each station is pretty much the same function as all the others. There is no BIG site. There is no BIG local service group capital investment. DDMA-WAN is a good way to go, if it can be done. The question mark is how quick each station will lock-up. Even if its 5 symbol times, no problem. The chip vendor says 1 symbol time. As long as the lockup time is 10 times less than the smallest packets (100 bits, 50 symbols with QPSK), the overhead of the lockup time is acceptable. All this system architecture is based on that lock-up time. And its going to take direct experience with the hardware to verify this. This is Ham Radio, and this is where we should take these questionable, untried positions. This IS why the goverment gave us some spectrum to play with. If we can lock up a communicating pair of stations, across real world paths, in 1 to 5 symbols, THEN we should build our Ham Packet networks along the DDMA-WAN architecture. The DDMA-WAN architecture has many advantages for the Ham Radio enviorment. But, DDMA-WAN is not an efficient architecture if the lock-up time is slow. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Thu Jul 24 12:07:27 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id LAA02115 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:52:33 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14794 ; Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:02:09 UTC Message-ID: <33D78188.3BB7@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:23:36 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bm@hydra.carleton.ca CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, In Reference Data for Radio Engineers, they have a reprint of a Fresnel Loss curves from "Radio Propagation Fundamentals"by K. Bullington, Bell Systems Technical Journal, vol 36, no 3, Fig 8, 1957. Working thru various paths thru the years, I ve come upon the 20 dB grazing additional loss (in addition to free space loss) value for short paths as a convient average value for system evaluation. Check out the table 1, in "Cellular Coverage Transport Networks", 7 th ARRL Networking Conference, 1988, page 130. The 1250 Fresnel loss values for 20 and 15 miles are 19.7 and 22.0 dB. The diagram in the Reference Data for Radio Engineers shows the + 6 dB gain over free space at the 1.0 H/Hfirstfresnel (H0) point of the horizontal axis. The diagram also shows Knife Edge Difraction. Yes, a grazing clearance Knife Edge path has only 6 dB of loss with respect to free space path. A Knife Edge First Fresnel clearance path has a 0 dB loss with respect to free space. For a 6 db difference. But, how common is this? What we are talking about is 2 mountain peaks in a row. The first station is even in height, with the first mountain peak. Its trying to talk to somebody on the second mountain peak , and isolate a station out at the same altitude beyond the second mountain peak. What is more common, is that u talk to somebody on the first mountain peak, and the next further stations are down the back slope of the peak. In which case, they are shadowed. Take a look at the curve. With a negative a few fresnels H/H0 value, say -2 fresnel clearance, on the Knife Edge curve is -22 dB from Free Space. The higher one goes in frequency, the smaller this H0 value becomes for a given path. On 10 Ghz, its not uncommon to see 30 foot H0 values so, if a the station to be isolated is 60 foot lower than the second peak, he s isolated. On 2.5 Ghz, that would be 300 feet to be isolated. Even if u had a place, where people lived on some bizare rippled terrain, the stations could downtilt the panels in the direction perpendicular to the rippled geology. And it is a time domain system. If the path is not there, because its being used, the stations can wait, or send the traffic off another direction. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Thu Jul 24 12:30:45 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id MAA03127 for ; Thu, 24 Jul 1997 12:17:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14797 ; Thu, 24 Jul 97 10:14:54 UTC Message-ID: <33D7875C.466A@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Thu, 24 Jul 1997 11:48:28 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bm@hydra.carleton.ca CC: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Barry, As frequency increases and the path gets shorter, its neccassary for the knife edge to be sharper and sharper. Altho, one could see a problem in a of town with high peaked roofs, and copper foil coated shingles. But the DDMA-WAN idea minimun distance (500 yard to 5 mile) paths, minimun power, maximun directivty, across flat residential areas, and to avoid shooting the RF out over low ground, or bouncing it off mountains. I think a bigger problem is reflections. Like off water towers and sky scrapers. As frequency moves higher, even street lights are quite effective periscope reflectors. This is why its a good idea to have DSSS , as well as directivity. And to locate the antennas up on rooftops, at the same level of the street lights. They have these especially big (1 meter by .75 meter) street light enclosures in one town here, which create havok on 1.2 Ghz, when one tries to talk to the repeater in the City from a mobile. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Mon Jul 28 22:15:25 1997 Received: from lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org [44.135.96.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA16011 for ; Mon, 28 Jul 1997 22:15:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from bm@localhost) by lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id DAA16124 for ss@tapr.org; Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:14:52 GMT From: Barry McLarnon VE3JF Message-Id: <199707290314.DAA16124@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Date: Tue, 29 Jul 1997 03:14:51 +0000 (GMT) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1645] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? In-Reply-To: <33D78188.3BB7@wb9mjn.ampr.org> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.1-961106-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Been out of town for the past four days, and playing catch-up on email... Don Lemke wrote: > Hi Barry, > > In Reference Data for Radio Engineers, they have a reprint of a > Fresnel Loss curves from "Radio Propagation Fundamentals"by K. > Bullington, Bell Systems Technical Journal, vol 36, no 3, Fig 8, 1957. > > Working thru various paths thru the years, I ve come upon the 20 > dB grazing additional loss (in addition to free space loss) value for > short paths as a convient average value for system evaluation. Check out > the table 1, in "Cellular Coverage Transport Networks", 7 th ARRL > Networking Conference, 1988, page 130. The 1250 Fresnel loss values for > 20 and 15 miles are 19.7 and 22.0 dB. > > The diagram in the Reference Data for Radio Engineers shows the > + 6 dB gain over free space at the 1.0 H/Hfirstfresnel (H0) point of the > horizontal axis. Okay, but that plot is for a "flat earth" or "smooth sphere" scenario where you have a reflection with reflection coefficient of -1. Thus, depending on the phase relationship between the direct and reflected path, you can have anything from 6 dB enhancement wrt free space to complete cancellation of the signal. I don't think that the 6 dB enhancement condition is something you would want to depend on - it's not very likely that you'll be that lucky, unless you're shooting over a smooth treeless hill and get the clearance just right. I don't disagree with your contention that a number of the order of 20 dB excess path loss is a reasonable thing to work with for grazing paths in the real world - it's just that 6 dB gain for first fresnel clearance that I have a problem with. Barry -- Barry McLarnon VE3JF/VA3TCP | Internet: bm@hydra.carleton.ca Ottawa Amateur Radio Club | AMPRnet: bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Packet Working Group | Web: http://hydra.carleton.ca From karn@qualcomm.com Wed Jul 30 20:25:41 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA12984 for ; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 20:25:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.13) id SAA07847; Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 30 Jul 1997 18:24:56 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199707310124.SAA07847@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33D76DF4.2E60@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Thu, 24 Jul 1997 10:00:04 -0500) Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? >The baseband modulation in the STEL2000A is BPSK, or QPSK. And it does >straight forward BPSK or QPSK DSSS spreading. QPSK is probably more >efficient modulation than .5GFSK (K9NG/G3RUH, etc). I don t see how the >DSSS is any more or less efficient coding than any other DSSS, if in the >system the process gain is not overcome. But, hey, i m not an coding >expert. In a SS system, the figure of merit is the required Eb/N0. It doesn't matter what modulation and coding you use, except as they (and their implementation) affect this number. Eb/N0 is the bottom line. > There is a slight difference with DDMA-WAN, however. Its the >nearest neighbor down each beam direction, that can be communicated >with, without interfering with the other neighbors. This would be an As long as the beams are pointed in directions that allow reasonably direct paths to be followed, yes. > In a Ham Packet radio system, since the participants are stationary, >there s no reason the participants cannot all use azimuthally directive >antennas. And square the directional antenna system benefits. This is a >difference resulting in an advantage we could and should exploit. Yes, except for the increased difficulty in talking to your nearest neighbors, who are probably not all in the same direction from you. Multiple directional antennas, or a single rapidly steerable antenna (e.g., a phased array) are probably necessary. >users. DDMA-WAN design and operational goals is to have only one active >neighbor being listened to by a station in the selected sector, at a >time. And for each in-range active transmitter to be on a different DSSS There's an implicit opportunity cost here, and I think you realize this. You've spread your signal by a factor (I think you said 13dB) but you aren't doing all you can to make up for this by maximum geographical reuse of the spectrum. > Even tho CDMA C.T. uses azimuthal sectors, it still has all its >user-user differentiation in DSSS code. That s the meaning of CDMA, Code *plus* antenna denote the user. If you walk around the cell, you'll get handed off from antenna to antenna almost as if you went from one cell to another. I think I understand what you're doing. I just don't know if, when you rigorously work out all the numbers, you end up buying as much as you think. I know we certainly got beat up quite a bit in the early days of CDMA on this point. Still do, to a certain extent. Phil From jtmiii@uisx.skd.com Thu Jul 31 08:48:47 1997 Received: from n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us [199.92.98.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA14813 for ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 08:48:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from n1nhs (unverified [199.92.98.2]) by n1nhs.nashua.k12.nh.us (EMWAC SMTPRS 0.83) with SMTP id ; Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:48:33 -0400 Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970731094833.0099a100@uisx.skd.com> X-Sender: jtmiii@uisx.skd.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Thu, 31 Jul 1997 09:48:33 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org From: "James T. McCartney III" Subject: Re: [SS:1648] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? In-Reply-To: <199707310124.SAA07847@servo.qualcomm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" ... much deleted ... >> In a Ham Packet radio system, since the participants are stationary, >>there s no reason the participants cannot all use azimuthally directive >>antennas. And square the directional antenna system benefits. This is a >>difference resulting in an advantage we could and should exploit. > >Yes, except for the increased difficulty in talking to your nearest >neighbors, who are probably not all in the same direction from you. >Multiple directional antennas, or a single rapidly steerable antenna >(e.g., a phased array) are probably necessary. > I also have to disagree with the fundemental assumption that the participants are stationary. "Back in the old days", before the transistor, the same could be said for AM, FM, and SSB. Should we architect a system based solely on one narrow slice of the user base? I think not. TDMA and CDMA phones prove that small high quality, and fairly inteligent tranceivers can be built for mobile use. The Newton 2000 is a proof that a hand held terminal with significant processing power exists. The US Robotics MOBITEXT and Motorola ARDIS modems (both in PCMCIA form factor) are proof that small mobile datacomm with interconnect to the internet (or other specialized mobile services) can be deployed today. Couple any two of these together and you have a network ready highly mobile data terminal. The products exist today, just not in the HAM space. Why? Would you develop a product for 50,000 users (HAM) or 50 million (Commercial)? To select a design center which mandates "stationary users" ensures that you are developing a system which will quickly become irrelevent. This ensures that products won't be developed by commercial companies who can get the economies of scale, forcing the price per "seat" to be too high. Lack of terminals will result in lack of use - which leads the FCC to ask why they are mis-allocating the spectrum space. If we don't design for tomorrow, let's just not bother... James McCartney