From nielsen@primenet.com Sat May 31 23:56:24 1997 Received: from usr07.primenet.com (root@usr07.primenet.com [206.165.5.107]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA00888 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 23:56:21 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nielsen.tus.primenet.com (nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com [198.68.42.82]) by usr07.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA29673 for ; Sat, 31 May 1997 21:56:17 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 31 May 1997 21:56:16 -0700 (MST) From: Bob Nielsen X-Sender: nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1497] Re: SS In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 31 May 1997, Greg Jones, WD5IVD wrote: > Then again maybe not. > > Based on the message I can't see any evidence to say that it is Spread > Spectrum communications or not. I would be interested in seeing the data > captured, maybe David can put it on a web site or something to retrieve. > Possibly our friendly military users in the UK are just using a wide-band > 'spread', higher-power communications technique of some sort which may or > may not be Spread Spectrum communications. Then again they might just be > running 100,000 watts as well. Which wouldn't make it a good example of > what amateur radio would want to or could implement. > > As to the issue of taking it. If they are the military -- you probably > have to. We had a situation here on 440 a few years ago where the background noise went up enough that all the local repeaters were desensed severely. Although nothing was ever admitted, there were a few EC-130s at the local airforce base.... After some phone calls, it mysteriously disappeared. Just because it appears to be white noise doesn't mean it is necessarily SS. Bob ---- Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen From wd5ivd@tapr.org Sun Jun 01 01:25:16 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id BAA20328; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:25:13 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 01:29:51 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: SS Cc: " AMSAT BB Mail Group " Hi Bob. Good example. There is a EC-130 or equivalent that flies along the border of Texas looking for drug smugglers. There are times when they switch over to the 440 amateur band (including spectrum above and below) and their system takes out the entire TexNet network starting at Austin going South (that is a lot of area). If the band is open when they are operating in the 440 band, we have seen it take out the entire network in Texas and into Southern Oklahoma. The 'signal' or whatever they are doing is not enough to get into most repeaters, but it is enough that the 9600 baud modems have a heck of a time handling it and most of the time just can't train on each other when the airborne signal is operating. Sounds like maybe the same military style system you have seen. As you say, just because it is wide band, it doesn't mean that the system in use is Spread Spectrum. Cheers - Greg, WD5IVD >On Sat, 31 May 1997, Bob Nielsen, W6SWE wrote: > >> Then again maybe not. >> >> Based on the message I can't see any evidence to say that it is Spread >> Spectrum communications or not. I would be interested in seeing the data >> captured, maybe David can put it on a web site or something to retrieve. >> Possibly our friendly military users in the UK are just using a wide-band >> 'spread', higher-power communications technique of some sort which may or >> may not be Spread Spectrum communications. Then again they might just be >> running 100,000 watts as well. Which wouldn't make it a good example of >> what amateur radio would want to or could implement. >> >> As to the issue of taking it. If they are the military -- you probably >> have to. > >We had a situation here on 440 a few years ago where the background noise >went up enough that all the local repeaters were desensed severely. >Although nothing was ever admitted, there were a few EC-130s at the local >airforce base.... > >After some phone calls, it mysteriously disappeared. Just because it >appears to be white noise doesn't mean it is necessarily SS. > >Bob > >---- >Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com >Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org > AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam > http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From david@braeside.demon.co.uk Sun Jun 01 05:00:38 1997 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (relay-11.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.137]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id FAA27388; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:00:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from braeside.demon.co.uk ([158.152.181.53]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa1022667; 1 Jun 97 10:50 BST X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:46:13 +0100 To: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" , AMSAT BB Mail Group From: "David G.L. Anderson" Subject: Re: SS Cc: MOON-NET@vm.stlawu.edu, Clifford Buttschardt , Spread Spectrum At 4:42 am +0100 1/6/97, Greg Jones, WD5IVD wrote: >Then again maybe not. > >Based on the message I can't see any evidence to say that it is Spread >Spectrum communications or not. I would be interested in seeing the data >captured, maybe David can put it on a web site or something to retrieve. >Possibly our friendly military users in the UK are just using a wide-band >'spread', higher-power communications technique of some sort which may or >may not be Spread Spectrum communications. Then again they might just be >running 100,000 watts as well. Which wouldn't make it a good example of >what amateur radio would want to or could implement. No, I wasn't argueing for or against WB amateur SS experimentation in appropriate parts of non-weak signal amateur bands. Narrow SS for EME is fine by me( No greater than SSB voice bandwidths). I have the Spectrum analyser plots on paper here, but will attempt to scan them in and put them on my web page in the near future. > >As to the issue of taking it. If they are the military -- you probably >have to. That's for sure, but then maybe its commercial? - that's part of the trouble there is no way with this SS to determine who is transmitting it. - Snip- In the political/legal climate of todays amateur radio -- it >wouldn't surprise me if SSB was a new mode then someone would comment that >it needed to have a CW ID ;-) ;-) (just kidding.) Hey, in the UK we still have to use a CW ID on AX.25 Packet Radio :-) > >The mode of Spread Spectrum is all about the art of continuing >experimentation and innovations within the amateur radio community. If we >stop amateur radio from developing and implementing new modes of operations >to protect small communities within the population, then we might as well >expect things like what was proposed by the CBO (Congressional Budget >Office) two weeks ago -- assign various bands including the US amateur >radio segments to a management group to determine its best utilization. >Something to think about before we start limiting experimentation and >development within the hobby. Not my intention to stop experimentation at all, just stating the hard facts of the QRM problem that we suffer at present on 430-440MHz. Which although is local to the UK, may even affect satellites (as PAVE-PAWS radar does). >Please let's be a little more scientific about these things and a little >less emotional. If you want the scientific evidence, I will be happy to post you the Spectrum Analyser plots... Its hard to be unemotional about this QRM. + ---------------------------+ | David Anderson GM4JJJ | | gm4jjj@amsat.org | +----------------------------+ From wd5ivd@tapr.org Sun Jun 01 05:35:13 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id FAA28589; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:35:01 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 05:37:09 -0500 To: "David G.L. Anderson" , AMSAT BB Mail Group From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: SS Cc: MOON-NET@vm.stlawu.edu, Clifford Buttschardt , Spread Spectrum At 4:46 AM -0500 6/1/97, David G.L. Anderson wrote: >At 4:42 am +0100 1/6/97, Greg Jones, WD5IVD wrote: >>Then again maybe not. >> > > >No, I wasn't argueing for or against WB amateur SS experimentation in >appropriate parts of non-weak signal amateur bands. Narrow SS for EME is >fine by me( No greater than SSB voice bandwidths). > > > Sounds like we are in agreement on a lot of this David. From your message it does sound like you have a problem. I was really answering Cliff's retort about how bad your 'Spread Spectrum' transmission problem was and how it was a great first example. Cliff was making a point regarding the 'for or against amateur radio SS'. I felt that message needed a response. >From this last message, sounds like it might be time to get the DF equipment out and find where the source is. Personally, I think we (amateur radio) have greater interference potential from other services outside amateur radio that are secondary on freqs we use. It just seems that within the amateur community at times we shoot at each other instead of taking proper aim together at possibly more important issues. On another topic, I sure wish someone could explain what is meant by 'narrow' spread spectrum ? I saw this in some of the comments filed on FCC Docket 97-12. The whole purpose is to spread the signal out in such a manner as to increase the process gain and therefore reduce the potential for interference by decreasing the power spectral density (PSD) of the transmission across a selected spectrum. If you attempt to restrict the transmission to some 'narrow' operating limit you seriously increase the potential for interference, since the PSD is now focused in a much smaller, tighter area. Spreading over 3khz doesn't do much good -- does it ? Maybe there is a benefit I haven't thought about on this -- Phil (KA9Q), Tom (W3IWI) ? I probably need to go back and read the paper on SS EME form the CSHVF conference last year. Cheers - Greg, WD5IVD ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From guillaum@worldonline.nl Sun Jun 01 07:36:12 1997 Received: from worldonline.nl (io.worldonline.nl [194.151.128.27]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA12369 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 07:36:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Guillaum.Worldonline.nl (hlv1-p111.worldonline.nl [195.241.137.111]) by worldonline.nl (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA14465 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 14:35:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <3.0.1.32.19970601141511.006a3ba8@worldonline.nl> X-Sender: guillaum@worldonline.nl X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 3.0.1 (32) Date: Sun, 01 Jun 1997 14:15:11 +0200 To: ss@tapr.org From: Guillaume Subject: unsubscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" From arutz@shfmicro.com Sun Jun 01 10:21:32 1997 Received: from alice.adsnet.com (alice.adsnet.com [206.158.2.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA24233 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:21:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pool-usr001-31.adsnet.com (pool-usr001-31.adsnet.com [208.4.81.31]) by alice.adsnet.com (8.6.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id KAA07696 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:27:58 -0500 Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 10:27:58 -0500 Message-Id: <199706011527.KAA07696@alice.adsnet.com> X-Sender: arutz@mail.adsnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: arutz@shfmicro.com (alan rutz) Subject: unsubscribe From kb4zj@amsat.org Sun Jun 01 15:21:04 1997 Received: from smtp2.erols.com (smtp2.erols.com [205.252.116.102]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA20571; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 15:21:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from afeller.erols.com (spg-as60s49.erols.com [207.172.50.176]) by smtp2.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA05129; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 16:20:59 -0400 (EDT) Message-Id: <199706012020.QAA05129@smtp2.erols.com> X-Sender: afeller@205.252.116.124 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" , ss@tapr.org From: Arthur H Feller Subject: Re: SS Cc: amsat-bb@amsat.org Hi, Greg, What you're hearing is probably a radar system. Note that the primary allocation in the band 420-450 MHz is to the radiolocation service. The amateur service is secondary with the amateur-satellite service made available by a footnote in the band 435-438 MHz. See the Radio Regulations, Chapter 8. Domestically, the radiolocation service falls on the Government side of the table of frequency allocations. See 47 CFR 2.106 which is available from the best reference librarians. Since the amateur service and amateur-satellite service are allocated on a secondary basis, we MUST accept (cannot complain about) interference from the radiolocation service. Can we think of neat ways to deal with the interference? That's the challenge. 73, art..... From tlindamood@theriver.com Sun Jun 01 23:13:03 1997 Received: from pantano.theriver.com (pantano.theriver.com [205.216.137.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA17748 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 23:13:02 -0500 (CDT) Received: from p5.pm6.theriver.com (p5.pm6.theriver.com [206.26.122.102]) by pantano.theriver.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id VAA17611 for ; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:12:42 -0700 (MST) Received: by p5.pm6.theriver.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC6ED0.5C5EC960@p5.pm6.theriver.com>; Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:11:24 -0700 Message-ID: <01BC6ED0.5C5EC960@p5.pm6.theriver.com> From: "Timmy A. Lindamood" To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: [SS:1502] unsubscribe Date: Sun, 1 Jun 1997 21:01:42 -0700 Return-Receipt-To: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From stocking@nps.navy.mil Mon Jun 02 11:46:00 1997 Received: from azure.stl.nps.navy.mil (azure.stl.nps.navy.mil [131.120.64.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA26446 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 11:45:58 -0500 (CDT) Received: from javabean (sld222.cc.nps.navy.mil [131.120.50.222]) by azure.stl.nps.navy.mil (8.7.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id JAA12545 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 09:45:53 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970602170058.0095f908@stl.nps.navy.mil> X-Sender: stocking@stl.nps.navy.mil X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 10:00:58 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Richard Stocking Subject: unsubscribe \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Richard Stocking \ \ \ \ \ \ \ LCDR USN \ \ \ \ \ \ \ Joint C4I Curriculum \------\---\---\----\----\-----\ Naval Postgraduate School \ \ \ |\ \ \ \ \ \ \X| \ \ \ \ \ |X| |X| |X| N7OP |X| EX-AB5PU |X| EX-WB0DPI |X| |X| |X| |X| |X| From RLANIER@mailb.harris.com Mon Jun 02 13:01:27 1997 Received: from sol.corp.Harris.COM (sol.corp.harris.com [137.237.104.14]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA21613 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:01:25 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailb.harris.com by sol.corp.Harris.COM (8.6.12/ Harris.COM Unix mail relay) id OAA03779; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:01:17 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailb.harris.com (IMA Internet Exchange 1.04b) id 3930a130; Mon, 2 Jun 97 13:59:47 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:57:56 -0400 Message-ID: <3930a130@mailb.harris.com> Return-receipt-to: RLANIER@mailb.harris.com (RLANIER) From: RLANIER@mailb.harris.com (RLANIER) Subject: Re: [SS:1502] Re: SS To: ss@tapr.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part >Personally, I think we (amateur radio) have greater interference potential >from other services outside amateur radio that are secondary on freqs we >use. It just seems that within the amateur community at times we shoot at >each other instead of taking proper aim together at possibly more >important issues. This sounds like the Republican Party to me. From RLANIER@mailb.harris.com Mon Jun 02 13:02:25 1997 Received: from sol.corp.Harris.COM (sol.corp.harris.com [137.237.104.14]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA22213 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:02:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mailb.harris.com by sol.corp.Harris.COM (8.6.12/ Harris.COM Unix mail relay) id OAA04048; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:02:18 -0400 Received: from ccMail by mailb.harris.com (IMA Internet Exchange 1.04b) id 3930a4a0; Mon, 2 Jun 97 14:00:42 -0400 Mime-Version: 1.0 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:01:21 -0400 Message-ID: <3930a4a0@mailb.harris.com> Return-receipt-to: RLANIER@mailb.harris.com (RLANIER) From: RLANIER@mailb.harris.com (RLANIER) Subject: Re: [SS:1505] Re: SS To: ss@tapr.org Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Description: cc:Mail note part >Since the amateur service and amateur-satellite service are allocated on a >secondary basis, we MUST accept (cannot complain about) interference from >the radiolocation service. >Can we think of neat ways to deal with the interference? That's the challenge. Hmmm .... I know! How about Spread Sprectrum ?!? Include FEC and you've got your answer. From perezn@ing.ula.ve Mon Jun 02 13:42:20 1997 Received: from mozart.ing.ula.ve (mozart.ing.ula.ve [150.185.146.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA02634 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 13:42:08 -0500 (CDT) Received: from schubert.ing.ula.ve (schubert.ing.ula.ve [150.185.146.7]) by mozart.ing.ula.ve (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA09403 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:50:09 -0400 (GMT-0400) From: Nelson Alexander Perez Garcia Received: (from perezn@localhost) by schubert.ing.ula.ve (8.8.4/8.8.4) id OAA04551 for ss@tapr.org; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:41:35 -0400 (GMT-0400) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:41:35 -0400 (GMT-0400) Message-Id: <199706021841.OAA04551@schubert.ing.ula.ve> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: unsubscribe From jerry@nccn.net Mon Jun 02 14:36:25 1997 Received: from nccn.net (nccn1.nccn.net [205.139.74.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA05208 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 14:36:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from jerry.nccn.net (ppp134.nccn.net [205.139.74.134]) by nccn.net (8.8.3/8.7.3) with SMTP id MAA05848; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 12:37:33 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <33932078.7AA0@nccn.net> Date: Mon, 02 Jun 1997 12:35:20 -0700 From: Jerrold E Gallagher Reply-To: jerry@nccn.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: unsubscribe Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Temp unsubscribe; I'll expect to re-subscribe later. Thanks, Jerrold E Gallagher K6LYR -- jerry@nccn.net From cberg@grayfox.svs.com Mon Jun 02 15:20:33 1997 Received: from svs.com (grayfox.SVS.COM [198.4.241.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA07941 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:20:32 -0500 (CDT) From: cberg@grayfox.svs.com Received: from napcom.svs.com by svs.com (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA10629; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:20:29 -0500 Date: Mon, 2 Jun 97 15:18:57 PDT Subject: Unsubscribe To: ss@tapr.org X-Mailer: Chameleon ENGP1, TCP/IP for Windows, NetManage Inc. Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII From nielsen@primenet.com Mon Jun 02 17:25:07 1997 Received: from usr10.primenet.com (root@usr10.primenet.com [206.165.5.110]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA17889 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 17:25:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nielsen.tus.primenet.com (nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com [198.68.42.82]) by usr10.primenet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id PAA23966 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:24:54 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 15:24:52 -0700 (MST) From: Bob Nielsen X-Sender: nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Unsubscribe messages Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII The only way to get off this list (other than really ticking off the list manager) is to send the following in a message to "listproc@tapr.org" (NOT to the list itself.) unsubscribe ss or signoff ss 73, Bob ---- Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 02 23:53:03 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA08782 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:53:00 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id VAA05562; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:52:27 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706030452.VAA05562@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: frussle@erols.com (Jake Brodsky) Cc: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <338ec493.819200@smtp.erols.com> (frussle@erols.com) Subject: Re: [SS:1490] Data Radio Design >Three issues are cropping up: First, can anyone give us a reference >on how critical the 90 degree phase shift is? I ask this because with >higher data rates it is more and more difficult to maintain an >accurate 90 degree phase shift across the entire band width. =20 I don't understand how this should be a problem. A typical QPSK (4-state QAM) modem generates a quadrature IF carrier reference for its pair of balanced modulators by running the LO at four times the IF carrier frequency and feeding it to a series of flip-flop dividers that give you a perfect quadrature carrier (0 and 90 degree points) at the nominal IF carrier frequency. Then you modulate, combine and translate to the desired RF carrier frequency. Even if you tune the transmitter by changing the IF carrier frequency, the dividers will maintain perfect quadrature. It's better, though, to leave the IF carrier fixed and vary the conversion LOs that follow. That makes it easier to bandpass filter the output of the mixers to block harmonics and images, although the bulk of the spectral control filtering should be done on the baseband I & Q signals before they reach the balanced mixers. >Second, what kind of transmit harmonic filters can we use? Can I use >a third or fifth order Butterworth filter without too much concern Even good RF harmonic filters should have a gentle enough group delay in the desired passband to not cause any trouble. >the receiver? How about data rate filters? Or, as an alternative, If by 'data rate filters' you mean the filters that actually establish the bandwidth of the signal, as I said before these should be implemented at baseband as lowpass filters. >Third, for the eventual day when we use this platform for QAM spread >spectrum, does anyone have suggestions for doing a Hilbert transform Why do you need a Hilbert transform? The usual way to do QPSK spreading is to just use two different PN sequences, one for I and the other for Q. They should be synchronized to each other so their shift registers start off in the same state. Beware one important pitfall in QPSK spreading: unlike BPSK, QPSK signals are sensitive to spectral inversion. You have to watch that as you make your various up and down conversions in the transmitter and receiver. Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 02 23:55:33 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA08992 for ; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 23:55:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id VAA05566; Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 2 Jun 1997 21:54:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706030454.VAA05566@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <970530114802_1523509935@emout05.mail.aol.com> (N5RG@aol.com) Subject: Re: [SS:1491] Re: SS IF bandwidth >out I am going to have to do a lot more study. The ARRL book has >been recommended to me as being a good place to start. Roy, While the ARRL Spread Spectrum Sourcebook is worth a look, it's getting rather dated now. Although the basic info about direct sequence, frequency hopping, etc, is still valid the book omits much that is now considered very important in the field of error control coding and automatic transmitter power control. Phil From save@io.com Tue Jun 03 15:50:56 1997 Received: from mx2.io.com (mx2.io.com [206.224.95.72]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA06165 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 15:50:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from 199.170.89.83 (dialup-01-156.austin.io.com [199.170.89.156]) by mx2.io.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id QAA29221 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:03:05 -0500 Message-ID: <33943EC1.431B@io.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 15:56:49 +0000 From: HAVE TOOLS WILL TRAVEL Reply-To: save@io.com Organization: Fred's Mobile Auto Repair: http://www.io.com/~save/index.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Macintosh; U; 68K) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re:Unsubscribe References: <3393F97A.27CD@io.com> From david@braeside.demon.co.uk Tue Jun 03 16:07:42 1997 Received: from punt-2.mail.demon.net (punt-2b.mail.demon.net [194.217.242.5]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA06993; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:07:36 -0500 (CDT) Received: from braeside.demon.co.uk ([158.152.181.53]) by punt-2.mail.demon.net id aa0524701; 3 Jun 97 21:46 BST X-Sender: (Unverified) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 21:46:19 +0100 To: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" , AMSAT BB Mail Group From: "David G.L. Anderson" Subject: Re: SS Cc: MOON-NET@vm.stlawu.edu, Clifford Buttschardt , Spread Spectrum At 4:42 am +0100 1/6/97, Greg Jones, WD5IVD wrote: >Then again maybe not. > >Based on the message I can't see any evidence to say that it is Spread >Spectrum communications or not. I would be interested in seeing the data >captured, maybe David can put it on a web site or something to retrieve. I have put the Spectrum Analyser plots on one of my web pages for anyone who is interested... http://www.braeside.demon.co.uk/SSQRM/432QRM.html 73 + ---------------------------+ | David Anderson GM4JJJ | | gm4jjj@amsat.org | +----------------------------+ From hoffman@Eng.Sun.COM Tue Jun 03 16:32:10 1997 Received: from mercury.Sun.COM (mercury.Sun.COM [192.9.25.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA08209 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 16:32:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Eng.Sun.COM ([129.146.1.25]) by mercury.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/mail.byaddr) with SMTP id OAA16268 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:49:51 -0700 Received: from rebma. by Eng.Sun.COM (SMI-8.6/SMI-5.3) id OAA10586; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:30:46 -0700 Received: from portland by rebma. (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA04173; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:27:22 -0700 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 14:28:24 -0700 (PDT) From: Don Hoffman Reply-To: Don Hoffman Subject: Re: [SS:1515] Re: SS IF bandwidth To: ss@tapr.org In-Reply-To: "Your message with ID" <199706030454.VAA05566@servo.qualcomm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; CHARSET=US-ASCII >From: "Phil Karn" > > While the ARRL Spread Spectrum Sourcebook is worth a look, it's > getting rather dated now. Although the basic info about direct > sequence, frequency hopping, etc, is still valid the book omits much > that is now considered very important in the field of error control > coding and automatic transmitter power control. > > Phil > Just having just bought the Sourcebook, I agree. It was good background for someone like me coming to this new, but some more up-to-date info would be good. (If one read background information this old in my area (networking support for QoS) one would still think ATM was a good idea :-)) Any recommendations for more recent survey articles/books in this area? Don Hoffman From akestel@mrj.com Tue Jun 03 19:22:20 1997 Received: from turtle.mrj.com (turtle.mrj.com [205.160.13.11]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id TAA15742 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 19:22:16 -0500 (CDT) Received: from flash.mrj.com (flash.mrj.com [205.160.13.30]) by turtle.mrj.com (8.6.10/8.6.10) with SMTP id UAA14187; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:21:54 -0400 Date: Tue, 3 Jun 1997 20:21:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Andre Kesteloot To: ss@tapr.org cc: taco Subject: Re: [SS:1515] Re: SS IF bandwidth In-Reply-To: <199706030454.VAA05566@servo.qualcomm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Phil, I admit that I am probably biased :-) but the ARRL SpreadSpectrum Sourcebook may be worth a little more than just "a look". It is still the only book that ever gave actual schematics on how to build something that worked, and that without any fancy ICs unavailable to the common person. Incidentally, 10,000 copies of the book have been sold so far. Please don't be too disdainful of our early efforts. We all had to start somewhere. 73 Andre Kesteloot N4ICK On Tue, 3 Jun 1997, Phil Karn wrote: > Roy, > > While the ARRL Spread Spectrum Sourcebook is worth a look, it's > getting rather dated now. Although the basic info about direct > sequence, frequency hopping, etc, is still valid the book omits much > that is now considered very important in the field of error control > coding and automatic transmitter power control. > > Phil > > From labriola@ix.netcom.com Tue Jun 03 22:05:34 1997 Received: from dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.5]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA23035 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:05:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from smap@localhost) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) id WAA26149 for ; Tue, 3 Jun 1997 22:04:52 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ont-ca7-19.ix.netcom.com(206.214.124.51) by dfw-ix5.ix.netcom.com via smap (V1.3) id sma026078; Tue Jun 3 22:04:15 1997 Message-ID: <3394DA00.64A8@ix.netcom.com> Date: Tue, 03 Jun 1997 19:59:12 -0700 From: Don Labriola Reply-To: labriola@ix.netcom.com X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1516] Re:Unsubscribe References: <33943EC1.431B@io.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit >From my initial subscription: 73's de W6QS - Don Labriola To unsubscribe from this mailing list send a message to `listserv@tapr.org` with the following line in the body of the message: signoff ss From fpratt@dayton.adroit.com Wed Jun 04 07:25:19 1997 Received: from dialup.oar.net (dialup.oar.net [131.187.1.130]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA22441 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 07:25:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: from dayton.adroit.com (dayton.adroit.com [192.232.25.1]) by dialup.oar.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id IAA14668 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:24:16 -0400 (EDT) Received: from n2foe.adroit.com ([192.232.25.40]) by dayton.adroit.com (Netscape Mail Server v2.0) with SMTP id AAA297 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 08:25:25 -0400 Message-ID: <33955CD7.68CB@dayton.adroit.com> Date: Wed, 04 Jun 1997 08:17:27 -0400 From: "Frank "Skip" Pratt" Organization: Adroit Systems, Inc. - Dayton, OH X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Biased Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Andr=E9, I applaud your defense of the the SS Source Book. Building things that do not require 'fancy IC's" and spectrum analyzers is where ham radio will find the majority of its support and its cadre. The high end research docummented on TAPR's special interest page is laudable and needs to be done; but at the same time we must ensure that we do not create an environment which will intimidate the majority of the people in the process. Thanks for your contribution. 73 Skip Pratt N2FOE From bad@uhf.wireless.net Wed Jun 04 12:45:08 1997 Received: from uhf.wdc.net (uhf.4d.net [207.137.157.140]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA23345 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:45:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (bad@localhost) by uhf.wdc.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id NAA00343 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:46:32 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:46:31 -0400 (EDT) From: Bernie Doehner To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1280] Re: Reed Solomon source code In-Reply-To: <35b5e480@mailb.harris.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 21 Apr 1997, RLANIER wrote: > Hi Bernie, > > I would really like to see what you come up with. I am very interested > in FEC codes, especially appling them to an SS radio project. > > Let me know what you come up with! > > Tony KE4ATO Hi Tony/others: Just cleaning up old mail and noticed this one. I have finished my brief (ever so brief/quick) overview of Block, Convolutional, and Reed-Solomon coding, and Viterbi Decoding. It's located at: http://bugs.wpi.edu:8080/EE535/hwk97/hwk4cd97/bad/bad.html You can also find a brief description of Trellis coding (my previous project) at: http://bugs.wpi.edu:8080/EE535/hwk97/hwk3cd97/bad/bad.html (note: http://bugs.wpi.edu:8080/EE535 is the document root of a "virtual" telecom textbook - for which I and other students who took part in this class wrote different chapters). Hope it's useful to someone. 73 Bernie nu1s From makoors@koame001.delcoelect.com Wed Jun 04 12:52:59 1997 Received: from ns1.eds.com (ns1.eds.com [192.85.154.78]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA28730 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:52:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: from nnsa.eds.com (nnsa.eds.com [130.174.31.78]) by ns1.eds.com (8.8.6.Beta3/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA14279 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:52:52 -0400 (EDT) Received: from kocrsv04.delcoelect.com (kocrsv04.delcoelect.com [144.250.100.205]) by nnsa.eds.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id NAA22923 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 13:52:22 -0400 (EDT) Received: from koame001 (koame001.delcoelect.com [144.250.77.116]) by kocrsv04.delcoelect.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) with ESMTP id MAA14191 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:52:21 -0500 (EST) Received: from kocepc2e.delcoelect.com by koame001 with SMTP (1.39.111.2/16.2) id AA096446692; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:51:33 -0500 Received: by kocepc2e.delcoelect.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC70E6.A1456580@kocepc2e.delcoelect.com>; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:55:51 -0500 Message-Id: <01BC70E6.A1456580@kocepc2e.delcoelect.com> From: Delco User To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: UNSUBSCRIBE Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 12:55:48 -0500 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From hoelzen@trib.com Wed Jun 04 18:05:34 1997 Received: from patty.trib.com (root@patty.trib.com [205.138.108.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id SAA23785 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:05:33 -0500 (CDT) From: hoelzen@trib.com Received: from rama.trib.com (rama.trib.com [205.138.108.36]) by patty.trib.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA16804 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:32 -0600 Received: from jnoonan.wyoming.com (riv1p2.trib.com [207.49.40.132]) by rama.trib.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA19650 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:26 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:26 -0600 Message-Id: <199706042305.RAA19650@rama.trib.com> X-Sender: hoelzen@mail1.trib.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: SS IF bandwidth At 11:42 AM 5/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >SS Experts: > >I have been trying to understand how a spread spectrum signal is received. >I have been wondering what is the best kind of IF amplifier for SS. First you have 2 SS formats, DS and hopping. If you are thinking of the hopping signal you may want an IF that works with the signal bandwidth, but if you are working with DS you will want a bandwidth of at least twice the DS clock rate. I won't try to explain DS and hopping here. > >For example, assume that a data bit was sent by spreading it such that it >was sent at 8 different frequencies over the length of time required to send >that bit. It seems to me if a receiver were tuned to one of these >frequencies >that it would see a pulse appearing at random intervals. The optimum IF >response would be a pulse amplifer tuned such that it matched the >characteristics of the pulse. The bandwidth would have to be wide to >allow the pulse to pass through. > >But in a SS receiver the frequency the receiver is tuned to hops around to >follow the transmitted frequency. In this case, it seems to me that a narrow >IF bandwidth could be used if the signal coming to the IF was phase coherant >so that the ringing in the IF amplifier filters would continue to be >reinforced >by the signal feeding it. It also seem to me to be quite a trick to keep the >signal feeding the IF phase coherant as the frequency hops around. > >Most likely the SS receiver does not work the way I have invisioned above >but works in some manner I have not thought of. > >If so, how does it work? If you are using a hopping SS you can IF the system much like narrow band but if you are using say 2MHz DS spreading code the signal will have 90% of it's energy spread over 4MHz and would require an IF of at least 4MHz to recover 90% of the energy distribution curve. A narrow band IF will filter out most of the transmitted signal energy. > >73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG > > > I hope this helps your understanding a bit. >73, Chuck KC7BNC From hoelzen@trib.com Wed Jun 04 18:05:40 1997 Received: from cst.trib.com (cst.trib.com [205.138.108.44]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id SAA23804 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:05:37 -0500 (CDT) From: hoelzen@trib.com Received: from rama.trib.com (rama.trib.com [205.138.108.36]) by cst.trib.com (8.6.10/8.6.9) with ESMTP id RAA27003 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:35 -0600 Received: from jnoonan.wyoming.com (riv1p2.trib.com [207.49.40.132]) by rama.trib.com (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id RAA19654 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:30 -0600 Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 17:05:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199706042305.RAA19654@rama.trib.com> X-Sender: hoelzen@mail1.trib.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable To: ss@tapr.org Subject: SS Source book At 07:28 AM 6/4/97 -0500, you wrote: I have had the AARL SS Source Book, While I don't reccomend building equipment based on it's info it is a good book to start understanding SS with some designs that WILL make you think. Chuck KC7BNC 73's >Andr=E9, > >I applaud your defense of the the SS Source Book. Building things that >do not require 'fancy IC's" and spectrum analyzers is where ham radio >will find the majority of its support and its cadre. The high end >research docummented on TAPR's special interest page is laudable and >needs to be done; but at the same time we must ensure that we do not >create an environment which will intimidate the majority of the people >in the process. > >Thanks for your contribution. > >73 > >Skip Pratt N2FOE > > > From buaas@wireless.net Wed Jun 04 19:58:22 1997 Received: from wireless.net (wireless.net [198.253.254.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA28860 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 19:58:18 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from buaas@localhost) by wireless.net (8.8.5/8.6.12) id SAA00353 for ss@tapr.org; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 18:17:51 -0700 (PDT) From: "Robert A. Buaas" Message-Id: <199706050117.SAA00353@wireless.net> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: my Reply Comments Before the Federal Communications Commission Washington, D. C. 20554 In the Matter of ) WT Docket No. 97-12 ) Amendment of the Amateur Service ) RM-8737 Rules to Provide For ) Greater Use of Spread ) Spectrum Communication ) Technologies ) To: The Commission REPLY COMMENTS OF Robert A. Buaas, K6KGS 10044 Adams Ave. #108 Huntington Beach, CA 92646 buaas@wireless.net June 4, 1997 INTRODUCTION I listed my credentials in my Comments on this Proceeding, dated May 2, 1997. The most relevant of these is the fact that I am one of but a handful of PRACTITIONERS in the art and science of Spread Spectrum (SS) as it applies to the Amateur Service. Being the holder of the SS Special Temporary Authorization (STA) caused me to be the focus of those interested in moving forward. Over the years I received many, varied levels of inquiry. It became quite clear how limiting the current Rules are, and also how diverse are the levels of expertise and interest. SS is sufficiently complex that only a few stout experimenters were willing to invest the many hours required to build even the simplest SS systems. A common theme for each of us is that we all started at the very beginning, learning from simple modules, building on that learning until we arrived at a critical mass of elements that could be called a working system. Along this path was the gift of insight into SS's strengths (resistance to interference and multipath fading) as well as its weaknesses (complexity, wideband receivers, the near-far problem). Many of us came to conclude that SS systems resulted from special cases of more general digital codes, and that what we require is blanket authorization to pursue additional avenues whose many desirable properties are worth investigating and adopting. I find it interesting that many commentors refer, in their remarks, to SS as experimental technology. The fact is quite the contrary; only in Amateur Radio is SS experimental! DISCUSSION While I am pleased that the Commission has decided to consider new rulemaking on SS communication within the Amateur Radio Service (ARS), after contemplating all the Comments in this Proceeding, I urge that the Commission step back and take the longest possible view into the future. The outcome of this Rule Making will impact Amateur Radio for the next 10-20 years. I urge that the Commission grant additional weight to the Comments of those who speak from experience. Particularly, I wish to concur with and endorse (a) the Comments of Phil Karn KA9Q, for his willingness to be a light of experience in a sea of darkness, and for the courage in his Comments to advocate SS technology at HF; (b) the Reply Comments of Dick Bingham W7WKR for his pioneering work in very-low-power 80M DSSS; (c) the Reply Comments of Glenn Elmore N6GN, who eloquently shows that the concerns of current weak-signal enthusiasts are technically unfounded; (d) Greg Jones WD5IVD and Dewayne Hendricks WA8DZP of TAPR, for making SS an organizational priority, thereby making current commercial SS more widely available; and (e) the ARRL, for bringing this matter to the current forum. In my opinion, the ARRL (as an organization) is illustrative of the lack of consensus among Amateurs. It has the pro-SS and the anti-SS factions, and the many other factions/interests that leave it at cross- purposes with the initiative that is the subject of this Proceeding. The ARRL has neither contributed to nor provided leadership in this matter. As for policy, it wishes to see, predominately that the status quo remain in place, since this position best serves the ARRL as a power broker. All the while, technology is advancing, leaving the current practices in Amateur Radio behind. It's one thing to "say" you are "for something," and very much another to give it life by contributing time and resources. I have little use for the ARRL as an organization, as the advocate and representative for advancement of Amateur Radio. On balance, I would like to acknowledge those individuals inside the ARRL who have, over the years, worked very hard on the side of technology, research, and SS. You know who you are. Repeater operators and users can forget about concerns they voiced of interference from SS systems. The data I included in my Comments provide a sample of the irrefutable evidence showing that interference is, at most, unlikely and infrequent. If there are any lingering doubts, feel free to look at a spectrum analyzer sometime; how does one interfere with something that isn't there? I find it interesting that the weak-signal community would seek to differentiate narrowband-SS as acceptable practice; yet wideband-SS is unacceptable. This position exposes a fundamental lack of appreciation for the power of the underlying coding technology involved. I understand the motivation and I encourage the experimentation, confident that these folks will learn as we have, that the wider the signal gets, the better the result. It is just that the differentiation they seek should have no place in the Rules. I remarked about Metricom in my Comments. After all, they are a struggling business, offering guaranteed service performance using spectrum to which they do not have exclusive title. Hmmmm, but they are only offering this service where the population is dense and there is the possibility of profit. In the same breath, they would enjoin an Amateur from using their product modified with a high power transmit amplifier and receive low-noise preamplifier and high-gain directional antenna, to link across a long distance of wilderness or desert, because doing that might benefit the public interest or assist in a time of emergency. Something is wrong with this picture! The Rules have to work for everyone, everywhere, not just for a particular special interest. Sure, occasionally an Amateur will momentarily capture a Metricom transmission; he/she was granted that privilege when he/she earned his/her Amateur Operators License. I believe both TAPR and ARRL will further address this matter. In my Comments, I recommended that the Commission turn aside the specific proposal made in this proceeding, in favor of a Rules change embodying the spirit of the STA. After careful consideration, I wish to go further: not only should SS be permitted in all Amateur spectrum (including HF), I suggest that the Rules be fundamentally altered so that "any unspecified code" is permitted without restriction anywhere within any Amateur band. This includes, but is not limited to, what we now think of as Frequency-Hopped Spread Spectrum (FHSS) coding, Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum (DSSS) coding, hybrid combinations of these, Forward Error Correction (FEC) codes of varying properties, all inclusive of digital modulation forms. This recommendation might take the form of: (a) removing section 97.311 in its entirety; (b) rewriting section 97.309 (the definition of the data emission) to permit any imaginable digital code (with the sole prohibition that the code is not used to obscure the transmission) and that section 97.309(b)3 be eliminated; (c) editing section 97.307 to remove verbiage that implies bandwidth limitations for the data emission; and (d) adding entries in section 97.305(c) frequency band table giving the data emission access to the entire band. I would also ask that the Commission eliminate the requirement of section 97.119(b)(5) for morse code identification of the data emission. This requirement of a cross-mode identification would be likely to cause interference, and a monitoring station would find it quite difficult to associate the narrow band CW emission with a particular data emission signal. CONCLUSION The ARS has a long tradition of innovation in communications. With the introduction of new communication methods have always come outcries from existing-mode users. Each new method has advanced the state of the communication art, eventually, in an orderly manner, supplanting the prior method. The ARS, unlike all the others, which the FCC manages, also has a history of self-management. It needs, and deserves, considerably less regulation, to allow it to achieve its Purposes, particularly sections 97.1 (b) (c) and (d). In this Proceeding, the Commission could significantly reduce its workload attributed to the ARS by recognizing these facts, and by removing the bandwidth limitations it has attached to each modulation mode and the arbitrary spectrum allocations given to the various modulation modes. Since SS is but one point on the continuum of digital coding technology, allowing any bandwidth provides system designers with the flexibility to determine what works and what doesn't. There are adequate provisions existent in the Rules to prevent undue interference from new modes, as there are Rules about appropriate transmit power levels. Digital Coding technology, whatever its form or emission consequence, should be freely permitted on ALL Amateur bands, not just those about 50 MHz as I proposed in my Comments, or above 420 MHz as is current. RESPECTFULLY SUBMITTED, //signed// Robert A. Buaas K6KGS From karn@qualcomm.com Wed Jun 04 22:07:02 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA08336; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:06:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id UAA07702; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:06:22 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706050306.UAA07702@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: david@braeside.demon.co.uk CC: wd5ivd@tapr.org, amsat-bb@amsat.org, MOON-NET@vm.stlawu.edu, cbuttsch@slonet.org, ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (david@braeside.demon.co.uk) Subject: Re: SS Given that this is a strong military signal on the 70cm band, and given that the primary (and historical) use of that band is government radiolocation (i.e., military radar), I would hazard a guess that this is a spread spectrum RADAR, not a spread spectrum communication system. As you know, radars generally operate at far higher powers than communication systems thanks to radar's built-in 1/r^4 propagation law (vs 1/r^2 for free space communications). So the fact that a spread spectrum radar system causes interference is not an indication that a spread spectrum communication system will cause an equivalent amount of interference. Spread spectrum is a natural modern technology for a radar system. Wideband signals are required in any radar system desiring accurate range resolution. Simple wideband pulses have long been used for this purpose, but they have several drawbacks: an extremely high peak-to-average power ratio, tolerable with tubes but unacceptable with solid state power amplifiers; a "range ambiguity" problem caused by the regular repetition pattern of the pulses; and a susceptibility to jamming caused again by their regular, predictable nature. Using a wideband PN (pseudo-noise) sequence (possibly cryptographically generated) as a radar signal solves many of these problems. There is one remaining problem with a spread spectrum radar if it's a monostatic design (the same antenna transmits and receives). The signal cannot be continuous, because the transmitter would jam the receiver. (Bistatic radars, with widely separated transmitting and receiving antennas, avoid this problem). So if this is in fact a monostatic spread spectrum radar, chances are it is being gated on and off, probably quite rapidly and randomly. And that gives us hams a way around it. just add enough forward error correction coding to our signal so that they can be decoded with, say, 50% of it missing and we'll do just fine. This is an excellent example of fighting fire with fire when it comes to spread spectrum interference. >If you want the scientific evidence, I will be happy to post you the >Spectrum Analyser plots... Its hard to be unemotional about this QRM. I'd like to see them if it's not too difficult. I'd actually be more interested in some time domain plots, to see if it is in fact being rapidly gated on and off. You should be able to do this with most spectrum analyzers by setting the resolution bandwidth very high (wider than the signal), selecting "zero-span" mode and varying the horizontal sweep time to look for any signs of on-off gating. Can you put these plots up on a web page? --Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Wed Jun 04 22:12:24 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA08460 for ; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 22:12:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id UAA07716; Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 4 Jun 1997 20:11:50 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706050311.UAA07716@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (wd5ivd@tapr.org) Subject: Re: [SS:1502] Re: SS >Spreading over 3khz doesn't do much good -- does it ? Maybe there is a Depends on the user data rate. Meeting a spreading limit with "narrowband spread spectrum" would simply mean that the user would have to limit himself to a very low user data rate to keep the processing gain acceptably high. This in turn would imply a low transmitter power if a reasonably efficient modulation and coding scheme was used. You can scale the design of a spread spectrum up or down in bandwidth as long as you don't have any channel-dependent characteristics. But many important real-world channels *do* have frequency selective characteristics, and on these channels a "narrowband" spread spectrum system would encounter flat fading. So you might still get some time diversity, but little or no frequency diversity. Phil From wd5ivd@tapr.org Thu Jun 05 00:53:39 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA04839 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:53:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199706050311.UAA07716@servo.qualcomm.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 00:49:52 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: [SS:1528] Re: SS Hi Phil. >>Spreading over 3khz doesn't do much good -- does it ? Maybe there is a > >Depends on the user data rate. Meeting a spreading limit with >"narrowband spread spectrum" would simply mean that the user would have >to limit himself to a very low user data rate to keep the processing >gain acceptably high. This in turn would imply a low transmitter power >if a reasonably efficient modulation and coding scheme was used. After I gave some thought on the matter it dawned on me what you are saying. I have been so focused on using the technology to solve our high-speed access issues, I forgotten many of the points you and Tom made in your paper last year. >You can scale the design of a spread spectrum up or down in bandwidth >as long as you don't have any channel-dependent characteristics. But >many important real-world channels *do* have frequency selective >characteristics, and on these channels a "narrowband" spread spectrum >system would encounter flat fading. So you might still get some time >diversity, but little or no frequency diversity. > >Phil Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From n7oo@goodnet.com Thu Jun 05 09:54:11 1997 Received: from mail2.goodnet.com (104.good.net [207.98.129.104]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA17313 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 09:54:04 -0500 (CDT) Received: from goodguy (goodnet.com [207.98.129.1]) by mail2.goodnet.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id HAA13140 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:51:06 -0700 (MST) Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 07:53:54 -0700 (MST) From: Jack Taylor X-Sender: n7oo@goodguy To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1526] my Reply Comments In-Reply-To: <199706050117.SAA00353@wireless.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Robert, well written and I like the concept of allowing SS on the HF bands. Was there a rationale for not including HF in the original request for rule making? 73 de Jack From dewayne@warpspeed.com Thu Jun 05 19:17:56 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (WA8DZP@odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA25094 for ; Thu, 5 Jun 1997 19:17:51 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [45.6.0.6] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Eudora Internet Mail Server 1.2b1); Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:17:37 -0700 X-Sender: dewayne@odo.warpspeed.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <199706050117.SAA00353@wireless.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 5 Jun 1997 17:17:06 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:1530] Re: my Reply Comments At 9:54 AM -0500 6/5/97, Jack Taylor wrote: >Robert, well written and I like the concept of allowing SS on the HF >bands. Was there a rationale for not including HF in the original request >for rule making? That was a tactical decision. You try to fight the fights that you think you can win. Asking for SS on HF right off the bat would have started a 'jihad' in the service that would have made the No-Code battle (a battle I might add that is still not over) of several years back look like a grade school 'food fight'. TAPR's stated intention (see the BoD's SS Policy Statment from last year) is to push for SS on HF in the future. -- Dewayne Chair TAPR Regulatory Affairs Committee -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Fri Jun 06 00:13:38 1997 Received: from hydra.carleton.ca (hydra.carleton.ca [134.117.12.18]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id AAA13912 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:13:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org [44.135.96.100]) by hydra.carleton.ca (8.6.12/8.6.12) with ESMTP id AAA06749 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:24:45 -0400 Received: (from bm@localhost) by lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA11426 for ss@tapr.org; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:24:39 GMT From: Barry McLarnon VE3JF Message-Id: <199706060424.EAA11426@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 04:24:38 +0000 (GMT) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1528] Re: SS In-Reply-To: <199706050311.UAA07716@servo.qualcomm.com> X-Mailer: Ishmail 1.3.1-961106-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Phil Karn wrote: > >Spreading over 3khz doesn't do much good -- does it ? Maybe there is a > > Depends on the user data rate. Meeting a spreading limit with > "narrowband spread spectrum" would simply mean that the user would have > to limit himself to a very low user data rate to keep the processing > gain acceptably high. This in turn would imply a low transmitter power > if a reasonably efficient modulation and coding scheme was used. > > You can scale the design of a spread spectrum up or down in bandwidth > as long as you don't have any channel-dependent characteristics. But > many important real-world channels *do* have frequency selective > characteristics, and on these channels a "narrowband" spread spectrum > system would encounter flat fading. So you might still get some time > diversity, but little or no frequency diversity. 3 KHz of spreading isn't very interesting at VHF/UHF, but HF is a different story. On ionospheric channels, delay spreads of several millisecs are not unusual, leading to correlation bandwidths of less than 1 KHz - so spreading over 3 KHz can help to mitigate fading by providing some frequency diversity gain. Some years ago I was peripherally involved in the design of a DSSS HF modem which had a user data rate of 300 bps and spreading over 3 KHz (actually, spread over the bandwidth of a typical SSB IF filter, which is more like 2.4 KHz). It worked quite well, and was a candidate for the HF ACARS aeronautical data link system, but I think they ended up using something else. I did some tests on a link up into the Arctic, comparing the DSSS modem with an FDM-FSK modem which had roughly the same bandwidth and also provided 300 bps. The latter modem had 8 carriers, each carrying 75 bps BFSK - the carriers were grouped in diversity pairs, with something like 1.5 KHz spacing between the carriers in each pair, and a maximal-ratio combiner ahead of the demodulator for each pair. With equal average power, this modem actually outperformed the DSSS one. Maybe this indicates that explicit diversity beats the implicit diversity of DSSS in selective fading... or, maybe not. The DSSS modem has the advantage of a near-constant-envelope signal, so you could run it at higher average power with a given transmitter, which could help to equalize things. Some FEC would help too. Anyway, I digress. :-) On a completely different topic, anybody on the list planning to be at the IEEE MTT-S Microwave Symposium in Denver next week? Wanna get together and talk SS 'n stuff? Let me know... Barry -- Barry McLarnon VE3JF/VA3TCP | Internet: bm@hydra.carleton.ca Ottawa Amateur Radio Club | AMPRnet: bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Packet Working Group | Web: http://hydra.carleton.ca From elecinst@pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn Fri Jun 06 00:38:01 1997 Received: from pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn (pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn [202.96.69.81]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id AAA20708 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 00:37:40 -0500 (CDT) Received: from pub (ppp3.dl.lnpta.net.cn. [202.96.70.3]) by pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn (8.6.11/8.6.11) with SMTP id LAA13262 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:56:13 +0900 Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 11:56:13 +0900 Message-Id: <199706060256.LAA13262@pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn> X-Sender: elecinst@pub.dl.lnpta.net.cn (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: aa Subject: unsubscribe From wd5ivd@tapr.org Fri Jun 06 02:25:30 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id CAA25635; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:25:17 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 02:26:53 -0500 To: "TAPR-BB list mailing", " Spread Spectrum ", "TAPR Spread Sprctrum" , "NETSIG list mailing", "TAPR Spread Sprctrum" From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Reply Comments Docket 97-12 on SS Issues Reply comment deadline for FCC Docket 97-12 (In the Matter of Amendment of Amateur Service Rules to Provide For Greater Use of Spread Spectrum Communication Technologies) was yesterday June 5th. TAPR has started posting reply comments on our Spread Spectrum web page: http://www.tapr.org/ss go to the link "Spread Spectrum Rule Changes (RM-8737 & Doc. 97-12)" The following reply comments are currently available for reading: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Corp 6/5/97 Lyle Johnson, WA7GXD 6/5/97 Glen Elmore, N6GN 6/5/97 Robert Buass, K6KGS 6/5/97 John Ackermann, AG9V 6/5/97 Steve Dimse, K4HG 6/5/97 Tom McDermott, N5EG 6/5/97 John R Bingham, W7WKR 6/5/97 John Koster, W9DDD 6/5/97 We expect to have more posted over the coming month as others send us electronic copies and we get copies of other filings directly from the FCC. If you filed a reply comment and would like to have it available on the web page, please drop me an e-mail message with the text of the reply comment. Cheers - Greg Jones, WD5IVD ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Tucson Amateur Packet Radio 8987-309 E Tanque Verde Rd #337 * Tucson, Az * 85749-9399 * 940-383-0000 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- e-mail: TAPR@TAPR.ORG ftp: ftp.tapr.org web: ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From mickw@bedford.heartland.net Fri Jun 06 06:20:50 1997 Received: from bedford.heartland.net (root@bedford.heartland.net [206.72.61.253]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id GAA07762 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 06:20:48 -0500 (CDT) Received: from mickw (ppp10.bedford.heartland.net [206.72.61.10]) by bedford.heartland.net (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id GAA05159 for ; Fri, 6 Jun 1997 06:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Date: Fri, 6 Jun 1997 06:20:36 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: <199706061120.GAA05159@bedford.heartland.net> X-Sender: mickw@mail.bedford.heartland.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Mick Ware Subject: unsubscribe "Don't meddle in the affairs of dragons as you are crunchy and taste good with catsup!. From hwm@netcom.com Sun Jun 08 18:10:19 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom15.netcom.com [192.100.81.128]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA17190 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 18:09:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: from localhost (by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA00200 for ; Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:03:17 -0700 Date: Sun, 8 Jun 1997 16:03:17 -0700 (PDT) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Linux router project Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII There is an example single floopy boot router at www.psychosis.com/linux-router/. An embeded z80 project is in the works. Bob - wd6dod From wd5ivd@tapr.org Mon Jun 09 14:58:52 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA28393; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 14:58:30 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 15:03:15 -0500 To: "TAPR Spread Sprctrum" , " Spread Spectrum ", "TAPR-BB list mailing" From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Update to Reply Comments TAPR has started posting reply comments on our Spread Spectrum web page: http://www.tapr.org/ss then go to the link "Spread Spectrum Rule Changes (RM-8737 & Doc. 97-12)" As of 6/9/97 the following reply comments are available on Docket 97-12 Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Corp 6/5/97 ARRL 6/5/97 Lyle Johnson, WA7GXD 6/5/97 Glenn Elmore, N6GN 6/5/97 Robert Buaas, K6KGS 6/5/97 John Ackermann, AG9V 6/5/97 Steve Dimse, K4HG 6/5/97 Tom McDermott, N5EG 6/5/97 John R Bingham, W7WKR 6/5/97 John Koster, W9DDD 6/5/97 Anthony McConnell, N3JLI and Jacob Brodsky, AB3A 6/5/97 James Barron, Jr, KA5WSS 6/5/97 Robert J. Carpenter 6/5/97 Steven K. Stroh, N8GNJ 6/5/97 Comments that we think where filed, but haven't gotten on the web page include: NCS W5YI Bill Tynan AMSAT and some others I am sure... Cheers - Greg, WD5IVD ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From dan_hoyer_at_greenbay@ccm.frontiercorp.com Mon Jun 09 17:35:17 1997 Received: from node1.frontiernet.net (root@node1.frontiernet.net [205.232.174.11]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA10947 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 17:35:14 -0500 (CDT) From: dan_hoyer_at_greenbay@ccm.frontiercorp.com Received: from ccm.frontiercorp.com (ccm.frontiercorp.com [204.168.13.16]) by node1.frontiernet.net (8.8.6.Beta4/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA118166 for ; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 18:12:46 -0400 Received: from ccMail by ccm.frontiercorp.com (ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.01) id AA865894531; Mon, 09 Jun 97 18:15:33 -0500 Message-Id: <9706098658.AA865894531@ccm.frontiercorp.com> X-Mailer: ccMail Link to SMTP R6.00.01 Date: Mon, 09 Jun 97 17:10:37 -0500 To: Subject: RE: My unsubscribe request... MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Never mind. I found it on the unsubscribe page on the webserver. Thanks anyway... Dan From wd5ivd@tapr.org Tue Jun 10 00:12:34 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA09873 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:12:31 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:25:01 -0500 To: " Spread Spectrum " From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Reply Comments I just added the comments of W5YI group. We have the NCS, but someone will be typing them in...so expect them in a few days. Also, still expecting an electronic version from AMSAT and some others in the next day or so. If you filed reply comments, please send a copy to us so that we can get it on the page. Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From ods@nera.no Tue Jun 10 00:54:57 1997 Received: from notesmta.nera.no (gatekeeper.nera.no [195.1.205.130]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id AAA23808 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 00:54:55 -0500 (CDT) Received: by notesmta.nera.no(Lotus SMTP MTA v1.06 (346.8 3-18-1997)) id 412564B2.002524CD ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 07:45:42 +0100 X-Lotus-FromDomain: NERA From: "Odd Skogjordet" To: ss@tapr.org Message-ID: <412564B2.0027B285.00@notesmta.nera.no> Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 08:14:07 +0100 Subject: unsubscribe Mime-Version: 1.0 From karn@qualcomm.com Tue Jun 10 01:05:12 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id BAA28558 for ; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 01:05:10 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id XAA24073; Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 9 Jun 1997 23:04:39 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706100604.XAA24073@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (wd5ivd@tapr.org) Subject: Re: [SS:1537] Update to Reply Comments As an original commenter, I've gotten paper reply comments in the snail mail from AMSAT, W2RS and ARRL. I didn't file any timely reply comments, but I'm thinking of filing "answer" comments that specifically rebut some of the reply comments I've seen. E.g., ARRL mentions my proposal of loosening power limits for EME and other space communications and then tries to shoot it down by saying that much EME operation is directed at the horizon, completely ignoring my suggestion that the power waiver could be predicated on a minimum antenna elevation. Phil From wd5ivd@tapr.org Tue Jun 10 05:11:20 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id FAA01236; Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:10:53 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 10 Jun 1997 05:10:58 -0500 To: " Spread Spectrum ", "TAPR Spread Sprctrum" , "NETSIG list mailing" From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Additional Reply comments Docket 97-12 This is now the current list of reply comments to Docket 97-12. regarding Amendment of the Amateur Service Rules to Provide For Greater Use of Spread Spectrum Communication Technologies: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Corp 6/5/97 ARRL 6/5/97 Lyle Johnson, WA7GXD 6/5/97 Glenn Elmore, N6GN 6/5/97 Robert Buaas, K6KGS 6/5/97 John Ackermann, AG9V 6/5/97 Steve Dimse, K4HG 6/5/97 Tom McDermott, N5EG 6/5/97 John R Bingham, W7WKR 6/5/97 John Koster, W9DDD 6/5/97 Anthony McConnell, N3JLI and Jacob Brodsky, AB3A 6/5/97 James Barron, Jr, KA5WSS 6/5/97 Robert J. Carpenter 6/5/97 Steven K. Stroh, N8GNJ 6/5/97 THE W5YI GROUP 6/5/97 AMSAT 6/5/97 Central States VHF Society 6/5/97 Bill Tynan, W3XO 6/5/97 http://www.tapr.org/ss use the link regarding rule making. There are maybe just a few additional comments to complete the record. Thanks to all those that have sent electronic copies of their filings. I believe it helps everyone to see what positions are being taken and discussed regarding this important rule making process. Cheers - Greg, WD5IVD ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From wd5ivd@tapr.org Sat Jun 14 11:29:21 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA26897 for ; Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:29:19 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 14 Jun 1997 11:33:05 -0500 To: " Spread Spectrum " From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Docket 97-12 Update The following is now on the web page (http://www.tapr.org/ss). We have Metricom, CellNet Data Systems to still type in. Cheers - Greg ------- Reply Comments to Docket 97-12 Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Corp 6/5/97 ARRL 6/5/97 Lyle Johnson, WA7GXD 6/5/97 Glenn Elmore, N6GN 6/5/97 Robert Buaas, K6KGS 6/5/97 John Ackermann, AG9V 6/5/97 Steve Dimse, K4HG 6/5/97 Tom McDermott, N5EG 6/5/97 John R Bingham, W7WKR 6/5/97 John Koster, W9DDD 6/5/97 Anthony McConnell, N3JLI and Jacob Brodsky, AB3A 6/5/97 James Barron, Jr, KA5WSS 6/5/97 Robert J. Carpenter 6/5/97 Steven K. Stroh, N8GNJ 6/5/97 THE W5YI GROUP 6/5/97 AMSAT 6/5/97 Central States VHF Society 6/5/97 Bill Tynan, W3XO 6/5/97 Raphael Soifer, W2RS 6/5/97 Comments to WT Docket No. 97-12 Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Corp 5/5/97 ARRL 5/5/97 Lyle V. Johnson, WA7GXD 5/5/97 Philip R. Karn, Jr, KA9Q 5/5/97 Robert A. Buaas, K6KGS 5/5/97 Central States VHF Society 5/5/97 William A. Tynan, W3XO 5/5/97 Part 15 Coalition 5/5/97 220 MHz. Spectrum Management Association of Southern California (220sma) 5/5/97 Raphael Soifer, W2RS 5/5/97 AMSAT 5/5/97 METRICOM, INC. 5/5/97 The Manager of the National Communications System 5/5/97 Robert Brown, N7STU 5/5/97 ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 23 20:27:34 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA07607 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:27:32 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id SAA07520; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 18:27:01 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706240127.SAA07520@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <3389E8C1.5F38@wb9mjn.ampr.org> (message from Don Lemke on Mon, 26 May 1997 14:59:19 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1465] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Catching up on old mail... > There s a problem with the Slovenian radios for USA application. >The modulation quality would not be legal in the US, I believe. Also, a Why not? There are no limits on the bandwidth of an "unspecified digital code" above the 70cm band (i.e., on 33cm and up, including 23cm). > DSSS with the digital matched filter (DMF) can lock up in one >symbol time. The extra bandwidth of the signal allows for this, while I think you misunderstand here. There is nothing about DSSS that inherently provides a faster lockup time. In fact, it is quite common for a spread spectrum system to take *longer* to acquire than a conventional unspread system. This is because there is an extra dimension -- code space -- that the receiver must search in addition to the usual dimensions of symbol timing and (if coherent demodulation is used) carrier phase. The acquisition time depends on many factors. Typical values for DSSS systems range from a few seconds for IS-95 CDMA (about the same time it takes a conventional AMPS phone to scan and acquire a paging channel) to up to 15 minutes for a cold-started GPS receiver. Phil From erick@kim.fcfm.buap.mx Mon Jun 23 20:59:01 1997 Received: from kim.fcfm.buap.mx (erick@[148.228.125.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id UAA11028 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 20:58:59 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from erick@localhost) by kim.fcfm.buap.mx (8.6.12/8.6.9) id VAA07299 for ss@tapr.org; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:00:38 -0600 Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:00:38 -0600 From: "Ing. Erick Castillo Nunez" Message-Id: <199706240300.VAA07299@kim.fcfm.buap.mx> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Test Dont put attention to this mail is just to see if the SIG is working From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 23 21:21:51 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA13310 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:21:49 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id TAA07651; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:21:18 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706240221.TAA07651@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19970526031835.006744b0@mail.trucom.com> (message from Marty Albert on Sun, 25 May 1997 22:22:59 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1462] Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? >After doing a lot of research, it has become clear to me that SS suffers >from several major problems for practical use in a large network... >(1) There are no fully documented systems using SS that are cost effective >that I have found. I work for a company that has done quite well designing and selling one fully documented SS system (CDMA digital cellular, described in TIA IS-95) and one proprietary SS satellite system (Omnitracs, on about 150,000 trucks worldwide). If you've seen an ad for Sprint PCS, you've seen ads for spread spectrum. There are two other segments of the spread spectrum market that have become quite cost effective. GPS is one. The Part 15.247 LAN market is another. >(2) Most of the SS systems I have looked at require a lot of tweaking to get >them to work, often meaning a near re-engineering of the system for each link. Any non-trivial radio link requires engineering to achieve maximum potential. Spread spectrum is not different. It does, however, allow this engineering to be considerably simplified in many cases. E.g., in IS-95 CDMA it is not necessary to divide up your channel set into subsets for each cell as it is with AMPS (analog) cellular. Every cell uses the same 1.25 MHz channel. >(3) None of the real experts doing SS development (I am not one of them!) >seem to be willing to develop a simple, reproducible SS system that can be >used right now. Go buy a Qualcomm QCP-800 or -1900 or one of the other CDMA phones now on the market. We've reproduced this SS system well over a million times now and are continuing to do so at the rate of a few hundred thousand per month. Or if you want high speed local area digital networking, buy one of the many Part 15.247 LAN cards on the market. Oh, you meant an *amateur* spread spectrum network?? Oh, never mind. :-) Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 23 21:34:34 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA14711 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:34:29 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id TAA07698; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:33:57 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706240233.TAA07698@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <970526121441_587598288@emout12.mail.aol.com> (N5RG@aol.com) Subject: Re: [SS:1464] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? >I have been hearing about SS for several years now and have been trying >to understand how it works. I have learned that it does have some very >marvelous properties and has some important benefits. But not without >complications such as the requirement for extremely accurate clocks. >Some organizations such as the U.S. Army consider the benefits worth >the considerable expense of solving the complications and can raise the >money to pay for the required solutions. This is another misconception. Spread spectrum does *not* inherently require overly expensive clocks any more than SSB or CW require highly accurate and expensive frequency references. It is true that some specific spread spectrum systems (such as IS-95 CDMA) do use accurate clocks for special purposes, specifically the synchronization of spreading codes of all the cells sharing a channel to simplify tracking and handoff in the mobile stations. But this is not an inherent requirement of all spread spectrum systems. Indeed, one of the really nice things about spread spectrum (particularly direct sequence) is that it can be used to provide highly accurate time to end users at extremely low cost. In the IS-95 CDMA system, the accurate clock at each cell site is actually a GPS receiver which is itself a spread spectrum receiver. Tom Clark (W3IWI) has produced a low-cost device he calls the Totally Accurate Clock (TAC) that uses a GPS receiver for this purpose. For a few hundred dollars it provides timing with accuracy comparable to very expensive atomic clocks. After all, the government has already paid for the clocks it puts on each GPS satellite, so why not take advantage of them? Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 23 21:46:38 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA15839 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:46:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id TAA07719; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:45:58 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706240245.TAA07719@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19970527030540.00681444@mail.trucom.com> (message from Marty Albert on Mon, 26 May 1997 22:07:43 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1469] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet >Given enough bandwidth, digital voice is no problem... Even at 56 Kbps it is >possible (the quality is not too great, but it's not all that bad). This >needs some more thought time! When digital telephony started back in the early 1960s with the Bell System T-carrier system (the origin of the term "T-1"), 64kb/s was chosen as the standard voice data rate. Only direct PCM waveform encoding was practical to implement with the technology then available. And acceptable voice quality with logarithmically companded PCM requires this high a data rate. (Two different logarithmic PCM schemes are used: mu-255 in the US and Japan, and A-law in Europe.) 56kb/s is 7/8 of 64 kb/s. This data rate comes about because the original T-carrier system "robbed" the occasional low order bit of the data stream for control signalling. The voice quality degradation was imperceptible, but it made this bit useless for data. So when digital data services were provided over T-carrier systems, this bit was simply thrown away in the multiplexer. Today you can provide very good voice quality at considerably less than 56kb/s. GSM, a popular digital cellular system in Europe, uses a 13 kb/s vocoder. CDMA uses QCELP, a variable rate system with peak data rates of 9.6 and 14.4 kb/s. A public domain GSM vocoder has been available in C from the Technical University of Berlin for several years. Qualcomm is just now releasing free "plugins" for QCELP (which we call Pure Voice). Both run in real time on modern PCs. Both are excellent candidates for amateur experiments with digital voice. If you want to hear what these coders sound like, visit my web page: Look for the section "Error control audio demos". --Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Mon Jun 23 21:55:44 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA16892 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:55:42 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id TAA07741; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 19:55:10 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706240255.TAA07741@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <1.5.4.32.19970527032814.00691b00@mail.trucom.com> (message from Marty Albert on Mon, 26 May 1997 22:33:47 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1471] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet >Is this really a good idea? For all practical purposes, this eliminates any >sort of an organized network that is available in emergencies, one of the >prime reasons we even have the badns in the first place. [...] >I believe that to provide reliable, predictable emergency services, there >must be some sort of organized network, perhaps something that users can >access, but this may pose a few problems as well, especially in high >population areas where you could have hundreds (maybe more) of users jumping >on at once. At the risk of igniting a flame war, I believe the direct application of ham radio to emergency communications is now just about irrelevant. There are too many alternatives that are too available and work too well. Furthermore, new alternatives are appearing for high speed Internet access to the home that don't suffer from the inherent drawbacks of ham radio, e.g., restrictions on content, encryption, business use, etc. I personally have three different non-radio ways to get on the Internet from home: dialup 28.8k modem, ISDN at 64k/128k, and cable modem. In a month or two ADSL trials are starting in my area. And lacking all that, I could put up a Part 15 link to Qualcomm if I had to. Freed from the "mandate" to provide emergency communications, and freed from the illusion that we'll ever build a large scale, high speed Internet on the ham bands, I see ham radio returning to its experimental roots with an emphasis on technical training and education. The skills you pick up as a ham can certainly be applied to emergency communications, most likely using non-amateur equipment. But the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. Phil From marty@trucom.com Mon Jun 23 23:14:43 1997 Received: from thepit.trucom.com (root@thepit.trucom.com [199.217.237.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id XAA26307 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:14:39 -0500 (CDT) Received: from main.kc6ufm.ampr.org (dialup15.trucom.com [199.217.237.114]) by thepit.trucom.com (8.6.12/8.6.10) with SMTP id XAA15620 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:14:37 -0500 Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970624041423.0068124c@mail.trucom.com> X-Sender: marty@mail.trucom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:14:23 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Marty Albert Subject: Re: [SS:1549] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet At 22:17 06/23/97 -0500, Phil Karn wrote: >At the risk of igniting a flame war, I believe the direct application >of ham radio to emergency communications is now just about >irrelevant. There are too many alternatives that are too available and >work too well. Furthermore, new alternatives are appearing for high >speed Internet access to the home that don't suffer from the inherent >drawbacks of ham radio, e.g., restrictions on content, encryption, >business use, etc. > >I personally have three different non-radio ways to get on the >Internet from home: dialup 28.8k modem, ISDN at 64k/128k, and cable >modem. In a month or two ADSL trials are starting in my area. And >lacking all that, I could put up a Part 15 link to Qualcomm if I had >to. > >Freed from the "mandate" to provide emergency communications, and >freed from the illusion that we'll ever build a large scale, high >speed Internet on the ham bands, I see ham radio returning to its >experimental roots with an emphasis on technical training and >education. The skills you pick up as a ham can certainly be applied to >emergency communications, most likely using non-amateur equipment. But >the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or >otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. > >Phil No flames here, Phil... Personally, I agree with you. I have had personal experience with a couple of disasters (one earthquake and one hurrican) where the land line phones and cell phones both continued to work perfectly well, even in the middle of the disaster area. When I offered Ham radio assistance at the earthquake, the emergency service folks put down the phone and looked at me like I had three eyes. :) I personally would like to see a return to the "earlier roots" of Ham radio, but I for one don't know how we can get there from here... "Here" being a lot of political infighting over: (1) Who is and who is not a Ham, and; (2) What Hams do and do not do. (or is that do be do be do?) Take Care & 73 Marty Albert - marty@trucom.com Amateur Radio: KC6UFM@KC6UFM.#SEMO.MO.USA.NOAM ************************************************ Interested in Amateur Radio? http://www.trucom.com/ppages/marty ************************************************ HAmPS Coordinator http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Lab/7067 ************************************************ From lylej@azstarnet.com Mon Jun 23 23:58:05 1997 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (root@mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA02952 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 23:58:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from ppp15.mmsi.com (usr13ip62.azstarnet.com [169.197.14.62]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.5-nerd/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA05732 for ; Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:57:46 -0700 (MST) X-Sent-via: StarNet http://www.azstarnet.com/ Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970623215422.00737700@pop.azstarnet.com> X-Sender: lylej@pop.azstarnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Mon, 23 Jun 1997 21:57:53 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: Lyle Johnson Subject: Re: [SS:1549] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" >Freed from the "mandate" to provide emergency communications, and >freed from the illusion that we'll ever build a large scale, high >speed Internet on the ham bands, I see ham radio returning to its >experimental roots with an emphasis on technical training and >education. The skills you pick up as a ham can certainly be applied to >emergency communications, most likely using non-amateur equipment. But >the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or >otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. Once the three competing LEO cell-phone systems are running, I'll agree that Amateur radio as a "serious" emergency communications system will be irrelevant. We'll have to justify our use of increasingly valuable, publicly-owned spectrum largely on the basis of the technical good that can be reaped from it, either directly or, as Phil says here, indirectly by providing a resource for peopel to experiement and apply to commercial endeavors. Cheers, Lyle From sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Tue Jun 24 03:27:33 1997 Received: from ife.ee.ethz.ch (root@ife-ife3.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.25.193]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id DAA00204 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:27:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eldrich.ee.ethz.ch (sailer@eldrich.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.24.203]) by ife.ee.ethz.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13366 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:27:27 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Message-ID: <33AF84EF.2206@ife.ee.ethz.ch> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:27:27 +0200 From: Thomas Sailer Organization: IfE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1548] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet References: <199706240245.TAA07719@servo.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Today you can provide very good voice quality at considerably less > than 56kb/s. GSM, a popular digital cellular system in Europe, uses a > 13 kb/s vocoder. CDMA uses QCELP, a variable rate system with peak > data rates of 9.6 and 14.4 kb/s. A public domain GSM vocoder has been > available in C from the Technical University of Berlin for several > years. Qualcomm is just now releasing free "plugins" for QCELP (which > we call Pure Voice). Both run in real time on modern PCs. Both are I assume this is a binary only release (I mean QCELP)? In this case, it doesn't help experimentation much :-) You don't need an upcoming SS system to transmit digital voice, DK7WJ reports success on using 2.4kbit/s LPC over the current packet radio network here in europe. 73s Tom From sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Tue Jun 24 03:35:31 1997 Received: from ife.ee.ethz.ch (root@ife-ife3.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.25.193]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id DAA00793 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:35:26 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eldrich.ee.ethz.ch (sailer@eldrich.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.24.203]) by ife.ee.ethz.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA13701 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:35:22 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Message-ID: <33AF86C9.7D71@ife.ee.ethz.ch> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:35:21 +0200 From: Thomas Sailer Organization: IfE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet References: <1.5.4.32.19970624041423.0068124c@mail.trucom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I have had personal experience with a couple of disasters (one earthquake > and one hurrican) where the land line phones and cell phones both continued > to work perfectly well, even in the middle of the disaster area. When I I could cite a counterexample: In a relatively recent flood of a river in a valley (Wallis), the commercial cell phone systems ceased to operate, while the local ham repeater (solar powered with battery backup) continued to operate This doesn't mean I think of hamradio as a reliable disaster comms medium, just to show that you can find examples for both scenarios Tom From ru3ap@gw.ra3apw.ampr.org Tue Jun 24 06:01:47 1997 Received: from gw.ra3apw.ampr.org (ampr.demos.su [194.87.1.92]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id GAA08771 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 06:01:43 -0500 (CDT) X-BBS-Msg-Type: P Date: Tue, 24 Jun 97 10:58:17 +0000 Message-Id: <508@gw.ra3apw.ampr.org> From: ru3ap@gw.ra3apw.ampr.org (tol) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1337] Re: SS ID In-Reply-To: your message of Fri, 2 May 1997 18:02:34 -0500 (CDT). I DONT READ YOUR MESSAGE AT MY monitor,why? From wd5ivd@tapr.org Tue Jun 24 11:28:55 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.40] ([208.134.134.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA15712 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:28:49 -0500 (CDT) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <33AF86C9.7D71@ife.ee.ethz.ch> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 11:16:09 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: [SS:1553] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Let me state my position, which is somewhere in the middle and probably better reflects the transitional explanations of both sides. Ham radio is good in am emergency currently because of the fact that you have a group of volunteers who can show up on very short notice who have communications that are outside the commercial infrastructure. They then provide that communications until the commercial situation is cleared up. Since many phone systems are never designed for the emergency peek traffic encountered during a disaster, amateur radio still has something to offer in those first few hours -- at least currently. These first few hours can last a few hours to a few days, depending on the situation. There are plenty of examples I am sure we could all relate that would seem to fit this definition. We show up and help out and then leave. These instances work better if the amateur radio community has contacts with those that need or want the help, thus you see good examples of this when the amateur community has been working with Red Cross or other emergency preparedness groups before the event. Just showing up and saying 'we are here' -- typically gets you the reaction that Marty described. However, each time an emergency happens, the commercial systems learn something a little new and begin to think about how to correct these problems in the future. It will not be long, I predict, that commercial will become smart enough to deal with many of the issues up to just losing there sites. A lot of this also depends on the nature of the event. The scope of the event determines again how useful amateur radio will be in helping out and for how long. As Phil and others have stated and I have written about, things are in change and many of us have noticed or are just now noticing. It seems like in the 80's we could drive around and use autopathes on repeaters and the delay that using them caused was okay, because it was better than no communications. Now, if there is _no_ emergency event to cause that peek traffic occurrence, then using amateur radio when you have a gazillion people around on the highway that can make contact faster and in a way that emergency services understand due to the frequency it happens -- we are behind the curve. The last time I used the autopath to call in an emergency -- 2 years ago -- it had already been reported by 5 people and it took me 2 mins to explain who I was and that yes I wasn't using a cell phone. You still read about the instance where amateur radio saved the day because it was off-road and the like. Amateur radio still provides services, but to sit on the ground with ones head buried in the sand hoping that things will not change is a bad situation and we have this happening on many levels within our community and within groups leading our community into the future. How this change effects us is up to us. Also, it is up to us to try to explain to others that things are changing. It might not be this year, or next year, but it sure will be in the next 5-10 years. It is not bad that things are changing. It just means we can't expect to use examples that are over 10 to 20 years old to keep our service a viable spectrum user. Now as Barry will comment in the next few message I believe -- time to get back on SS and make this experimentation thing happen. Cheers - Greg >> I have had personal experience with a couple of disasters (one earthquake >> and one hurrican) where the land line phones and cell phones both continued >> to work perfectly well, even in the middle of the disaster area. When I > >I could cite a counterexample: In a relatively recent flood of a river >in a valley (Wallis), the commercial cell phone systems >ceased to operate, while the local ham repeater (solar powered >with battery backup) continued to operate > >This doesn't mean I think of hamradio as a reliable disaster comms >medium, just to show that you can find examples for both scenarios > >Tom ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From karn@qualcomm.com Tue Jun 24 12:47:29 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA28792 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:47:19 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id KAA22224; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:46:46 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706241746.KAA22224@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33AF84EF.2206@ife.ee.ethz.ch> (message from Thomas Sailer on Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:29:53 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1552] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet >I assume this is a binary only release (I mean QCELP)? In this >case, it doesn't help experimentation much :-) Yeah, most likely binary only. I wish it were available in source (I've been lobbying internally for that) but it seems unlikely. In any event, I don't think the lack of source really precludes ham experimentation if you just want to use the vocoder as a building block for some digital speech experiments. >You don't need an upcoming SS system to transmit digital voice, >DK7WJ reports success on using 2.4kbit/s LPC over the current >packet radio network here in europe. Entirely true. Of course, 2.4kb/s LPC sounds almost as bad as ssb. :-) Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Tue Jun 24 12:52:32 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA29644 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:52:31 -0500 (CDT) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id KAA22241; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 10:51:59 -0700 (PDT) Message-Id: <199706241751.KAA22241@servo.qualcomm.com> From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: <33AF86C9.7D71@ife.ee.ethz.ch> (message from Thomas Sailer on Tue, 24 Jun 1997 03:38:26 -0500 (CDT)) Subject: Re: [SS:1553] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet >I could cite a counterexample: In a relatively recent flood of a river >in a valley (Wallis), the commercial cell phone systems >ceased to operate, while the local ham repeater (solar powered >with battery backup) continued to operate >This doesn't mean I think of hamradio as a reliable disaster comms >medium, just to show that you can find examples for both scenarios Yes, anecdotes can be cited both ways. Some people cite anecdoes of people freakishly surviving auto crashes because they *didn't* wear their seatbelts and then argue that they shouldn't wear seat belts. :-) I have my own anecdote from personal experience that goes the other way. It prompted me to get a cell phone and never to rely on ham radio again for a highway emergency. Anecdotes aside, there is no question that amateur radio's role in emergencies is decreasing rapidly and asymptotically towards zero. Phil From n3jly@erols.com Tue Jun 24 13:26:25 1997 Received: from smtp3.erols.com (smtp3.erols.com [205.252.116.103]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA03526 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:26:23 -0500 (CDT) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as3s47.erols.com [207.172.128.174]) by smtp3.erols.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA03467; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:26:19 -0400 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 14:26:19 -0400 Message-Id: <199706241826.OAA03467@smtp3.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: emergency communications Cc: frussle@erols.com Phil said: But the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. Phil i must overall agree with you here. but i still look back at the packet bash at dayton this year and can see the smoke pouring out of the ears of that guy you cheesed off about this topic. i've working in the communications field for a while now. i worked on putting up some of the very first cell sites ever built. i've worked on some ham radio repeaters. i stand by your statement that evening in dayton that after the hurricane/earthquake/.... whatever the cellsite has a better chance of still being working. battery&generator backed, proper transient suppression on antenna and phone lines, quality installation. microwave linking in many cases. the ability to turn off users that are overloading a system to keep it clear for real emergency users(though i don't believe this is used in most amps systems). compare this to people who run a system that can't figure out if polyphaser was from star trek or star wars. From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Tue Jun 24 14:07:42 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA05922 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 13:48:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14554 ; Tue, 24 Jun 97 11:21:04 UTC Message-ID: <33B0099B.4AE6@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 12:53:31 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Phil, Marty, Thomas, and Greg > Catching up on old mail... > > > There s a problem with the Slovenian radios for USA application. > >The modulation quality would not be legal in the US, I believe. Also, a > > Why not? There are no limits on the bandwidth of an "unspecified digital > code" above the 70cm band (i.e., on 33cm and up, including 23cm). > Ok. I might be wrong here, hi. I thought that the BW was apparently wider, based on the unfiltered digital signal being sent directly to the PSK modulator. Apparently there is some filtering due to the BW of the amplifiers that the digital signal passes thru, based on Marty's measurement of the BW. I was expecting -13 dB side lobes. We still need to be -60 dB down outside the band, right? And as the coordination has us right up next to the edge of the band (1297-1300) i was concerned. I was also unaware that the laws were so loose above 1 Ghz, inband. I did not mean to discourage anybody from using the Slovenian Design, but to carefully review and tweak it for US application. > > DSSS with the digital matched filter (DMF) can lock up in one > >symbol time. The extra bandwidth of the signal allows for this, while > > I think you misunderstand here. There is nothing about DSSS that > inherently provides a faster lockup time. In fact, it is quite common > for a spread spectrum system to take *longer* to acquire than a > conventional unspread system. This is because there is an extra > dimension -- code space -- that the receiver must search in addition > to the usual dimensions of symbol timing and (if coherent demodulation > is used) carrier phase. > That may be true. But i still maintain that DMF DSSS has faster lock up time than other commonly used amateur modems. Below is a quote from the Stanford Telecom data sheet for the the STEL-2000A product: "The STEL-2000A is designed to operating in either burst of continuous mode: in burst mode, the built-in symbol counters allow bursts of up to 65533 symbols to be automaitically transmitted or received, while in continous mode, the data is simply treated as a burst of inifinite length. The STEL-2000A's use of a digital PN Matched Filter for code detection and despreading permits signal and symbol timing acquistions in just one symbol." Of course that s one data symbol, not chip symbol. I found this hard to believe too, and have verified it in a converstation with Stanford Telecom application engineer. I also remember from the SAW class in i took in College, that back in those days, this job was done with SAW convolvers. Again, the acquistion was essentially instant. A Digital Matched Filter Convolver (correlator?) is allot more silicon real estate than an Acquire and Track Despreading technigue. Thus the 18 dB processing gain limitation of the STEL-2000A, with rapid acquistion. Versus the extremely high processing gain of chips intended for CDMA, using Tau Dither, or other Acquisition and Track technigues and these technigues acquistion time limitations. Its a trade off. I also mentioned this to you, Barry was there too, at the DCC which took place in Texas at the LaQuinta Inn. It makes sense that a broader bandwidth signal, might have faster acquisition. Just as a rise time thru a broader bandwidth is shorter. DMF DSSS is a way to use that broader SS signal to work for a digital communication system goals. A cellular access technigue may be better off with low data rates, high processing gains, and CDMA, and infrastructure. A DDMA-WAN technigue needs high acquisition efficientcy, high data rate, and antenna directivity, but no infrastructure. > The acquisition time depends on many factors. Typical values for DSSS > systems range from a few seconds for IS-95 CDMA (about the same time > it takes a conventional AMPS phone to scan and acquire a paging channel) > to up to 15 minutes for a cold-started GPS receiver. > > Phil -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From akent@bga.com Tue Jun 24 19:24:45 1997 Received: from zoom.bga.com (root@zoom.realtime.net [205.238.128.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id TAA10215 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:24:44 -0500 (CDT) Received: from Kendra (max1-116.ip.realtime.net [205.238.168.116]) by zoom.bga.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) with SMTP id TAA02453 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:24:42 -0500 Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 19:24:42 -0500 Message-Id: <199706250024.TAA02453@zoom.bga.com> X-Sender: akent@bga.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.1.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Kent Farnsworth Subject: Re: [SS:1549] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Hello Phil: I beg to differ with you in very important ways, as explained below: At 10:17 PM 6/23/97 -0500, you wrote: >snip< > >>I believe that to provide reliable, predictable emergency services, there >>must be some sort of organized network, perhaps something that users can >>access, but this may pose a few problems as well, especially in high >>population areas where you could have hundreds (maybe more) of users jumping >>on at once. Agreed. Hams have that orginization in most areas. >At the risk of igniting a flame war, I believe the direct application >of ham radio to emergency communications is now just about >irrelevant. There are too many alternatives that are too available and >work too well. Furthermore, new alternatives are appearing for high >speed Internet access to the home that don't suffer from the inherent >drawbacks of ham radio, e.g., restrictions on content, encryption, >business use, etc. > >I personally have three different non-radio ways to get on the >Internet from home: dialup 28.8k modem, ISDN at 64k/128k, and cable >modem. In a month or two ADSL trials are starting in my area. And >lacking all that, I could put up a Part 15 link to Qualcomm if I had >to. I also have several non ham methods of communications. I also live just outside of Austin, Texas, where the tornadoes recently hit. I have ISDN, a POTS modem, digital and analog cell, and my ham gear. When the tornado hit about a mile from my house, it took out the bell switch station (gone are POTS and ISDN), and the cell tower (cell out, too). The only way any communications came in and out from here was via the amateur channels. I have a generator in my motor home, and could transmit and receive digital as well as analog information from the amateur stations operating in this emergency, from my larger equipment, at great distances from me. My good ole HT let me make phone calls via a patch, located quite a ways away. There will ALWAYS be a need for amateur radios in emergencies. I know first hand. A good many amateurs in the area helped a really great deal in this. > >Freed from the "mandate" to provide emergency communications, and >freed from the illusion that we'll ever build a large scale, high >speed Internet on the ham bands, I see ham radio returning to its >experimental roots with an emphasis on technical training and >education. The skills you pick up as a ham can certainly be applied to >emergency communications, most likely using non-amateur equipment. But >the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or >otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. > Granted, the ham bands will probably never be able to access the internet the same way as the land lines can. That's not the point. The internet is not the best place for emergency traffic anyway. Without power to the providers, thar' ain't no internet. >Phil > > > --- Kent Farnsworth (akent@bga.com) From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Tue Jun 24 20:19:53 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id UAA13528 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:13:07 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14561 ; Tue, 24 Jun 97 18:33:45 UTC Message-ID: <33B065CB.63D3@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 20:06:00 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Emergency Communications, and Ham Radio Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi All, Everybody seems to be getting sidetracked on the Emergency Communications Problem again. This came up on the Netsig group a few weeks ago. I think my response to that conversations, says it all. Modest, aren t I ;-). So, I m going to send it to this news group: > Hi All, > > While its laudable that everybody is so concerned about emergency > communications, I don t think hams will build an amateur network to do a > job that is primarily the governments' responsibility. We do have a duty > to chip in, of course. But the primary responsibility for any emergency > communications system is that of the government. > > I think its pretty much clear, that if we can outdo the ISPs, that > Hams will build MAN's in support of Internet access, and in doing so, > end up with allot of extra on-air capability. Such as Packet TV > networking, what is called "Video Teleconferencing" on the Internet. And > hey, even emergency communications! > > This really is how things have always been on Ham Radio. Hams do > not buy HF rigs, or build FM repeaters (after the first one in an area) > for primarily emergency communications. This stuff DOES get pressed into > emergency service, tho, because its omnipresent. And its Omnipresence > that is Ham Radio's emergency communication strength. > > The biggest advantage to TCPIP, with Internet connectivity is that > of the large efficiency of scale of the application layer developement. > Somebody wants to try something new, and exciting, just does it. They > download the demo from the internet, and use it between on-air, or > on-air / internet operations. We ignore being in-step with this momentum > at our own peril. And Hey, it might even be useful for emergency > communications! > > We are given the emergency communications purpose, because we are > useful to the government in emergency situations. Not because we are > trying to do the governments job, for the responible organisations in > the government. We will not be useful, if we are not doing something, > and that something is not omnipresent. > > DDMA-WAN, that i ve talked about elsewhere is an example of > something that we can do , that s fun, and useful, and does not take an > omnipresent organisation, to someday generate an omnipresent capability. > > > -- > > 73, Don. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel From fperkins@OnRamp.NET Tue Jun 24 21:17:14 1997 Received: from mailhost.onramp.net (mailhost.onramp.net [199.1.11.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA16915 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:17:06 -0500 (CDT) Received: from fperkins.onramp.net (ppp10-39.ftwotx.onramp.net [206.50.209.39]) by mailhost.onramp.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA06511 for ; Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:16:50 -0500 (CDT) Message-ID: <33B07F2F.4105@mailhost.onramp.net> Date: Tue, 24 Jun 1997 21:15:11 -0500 From: Frank & Sue Perkins Reply-To: fperkins@OnRamp.NET Organization: Personal E-Mail X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1559] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Networks? References: <33B0099B.4AE6@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------23A33AEF3C07" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------23A33AEF3C07 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Don Lemke wrote: > > Hi Phil, Marty, Thomas, and Greg > > > Catching up on old mail... > > > > > There s a problem with the Slovenian radios for USA application. > > >The modulation quality would not be legal in the US, I believe. Also, a > > > > Why not? There are no limits on the bandwidth of an "unspecified digital > > code" above the 70cm band (i.e., on 33cm and up, including 23cm). > > > > Ok. I might be wrong here, hi. I thought that the BW was apparently > wider, based on the unfiltered digital signal being sent directly to the > PSK modulator. Apparently there is some filtering due to the BW of the > amplifiers that the digital signal passes thru, based on Marty's > measurement of the BW. I was expecting -13 dB side lobes. We still need > to be -60 dB down outside the band, right? And as the coordination has > us right up next to the edge of the band (1297-1300) i was concerned. I > was also unaware that the laws were so loose above 1 Ghz, inband. I did > not mean to discourage anybody from using the Slovenian Design, but to > carefully review and tweak it for US application. > > > > DSSS with the digital matched filter (DMF) can lock up in one > > >symbol time. The extra bandwidth of the signal allows for this, while > > > > I think you misunderstand here. There is nothing about DSSS that > > inherently provides a faster lockup time. In fact, it is quite common > > for a spread spectrum system to take *longer* to acquire than a > > conventional unspread system. This is because there is an extra > > dimension -- code space -- that the receiver must search in addition > > to the usual dimensions of symbol timing and (if coherent demodulation > > is used) carrier phase. > > > > That may be true. But i still maintain that DMF DSSS has faster lock > up time than other commonly used amateur modems. Below is a quote from > the Stanford Telecom data sheet for the the STEL-2000A product: > > "The STEL-2000A is designed to operating in either burst of > continuous mode: in burst mode, the built-in symbol counters allow > bursts of up to 65533 symbols to be automaitically transmitted or > received, while in continous mode, the data is simply treated as a burst > of inifinite length. The STEL-2000A's use of a digital PN Matched Filter > for code detection and despreading permits signal and symbol timing > acquistions in just one symbol." > > Of course that s one data symbol, not chip symbol. I found this hard > to believe too, and have verified it in a converstation with Stanford > Telecom application engineer. I also remember from the SAW class in i > took in College, that back in those days, this job was done with SAW > convolvers. Again, the acquistion was essentially instant. > > A Digital Matched Filter Convolver (correlator?) is allot more > silicon real estate than an Acquire and Track Despreading technigue. > Thus the 18 dB processing gain limitation of the STEL-2000A, with rapid > acquistion. Versus the extremely high processing gain of chips intended > for CDMA, using Tau Dither, or other Acquisition and Track technigues > and these technigues acquistion time limitations. Its a trade off. > > I also mentioned this to you, Barry was there too, at the DCC which > took place in Texas at the LaQuinta Inn. > > It makes sense that a broader bandwidth signal, might have faster > acquisition. Just as a rise time thru a broader bandwidth is shorter. > DMF DSSS is a way to use that broader SS signal to work for a digital > communication system goals. > > A cellular access technigue may be better off with low data rates, > high processing gains, and CDMA, and infrastructure. A DDMA-WAN > technigue needs high acquisition efficientcy, high data rate, and > antenna directivity, but no infrastructure. > > > > The acquisition time depends on many factors. Typical values for DSSS > > systems range from a few seconds for IS-95 CDMA (about the same time > > it takes a conventional AMPS phone to scan and acquire a paging channel) > > to up to 15 minutes for a cold-started GPS receiver. > > > > Phil > > -- > > 73, Don. > > AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] > Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu > Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel Simple example of DSSS with DMF attached - QB 4.5, run in DOS (window) 73 Frank WB5IPM --------------23A33AEF3C07 Content-Type: application/x-zip-compressed; name="Spread.zip" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: inline; filename="Spread.zip" UEsDBBQAAAAIAM2o2CIlz4zNPwUAAK0OAAAKAAAAU1BSRUFELkJBU41XbU/iShT+TsJ/ODEm gIIpoK6aXROQeuXqAoFusu632XaAyS0tdzr1ZX/9PWem74JcNNhOz3nmOc956dgAWMzm9mB0 Nhws6jW8vf5yZl2e9c71zV24fZditVZwL1nwDzycwYzLf0QQteFvedaG7vX1pf7+Uq/Va4u7 uW1PoNuD7NOAlWTbtXAj2IQeJ6uZ5A6CwjewcismNxC54ZaDwmcrLuu1xKgLRbSKzWMRJbVx 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G3M75gbOmzSvbt5rC0pibbFTF22Oy4s7vyMsgdlxa8fdHdlLtyxF/+vf/wNQSwECFAAUAAAA CADNqNgiJc+MzT8FAACtDgAACgAAAAAAAAABACAAAAAAAAAAU1BSRUFELkJBU1BLAQIUABQA AAAIAM+o2CKLpngXJWkAAISRAAAKAAAAAAAAAAAAIAAAAGcFAABTUFJFQUQuRVhFUEsFBgAA AAACAAIAcAAAALRuAAAAAA== --------------23A33AEF3C07-- From sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Wed Jun 25 04:31:57 1997 Received: from ife.ee.ethz.ch (root@ife-ife3.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.25.193]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id EAA21297 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 04:31:53 -0500 (CDT) Received: from eldrich.ee.ethz.ch (sailer@eldrich.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.24.203]) by ife.ee.ethz.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id LAA29685 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:31:49 +0200 (MET DST) Sender: sailer@ife.ee.ethz.ch Message-ID: <33B0E584.94@ife.ee.ethz.ch> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:31:48 +0200 From: Thomas Sailer Organization: IfE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; SunOS 5.5.1 sun4u) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1556] Re: Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet References: <199706241746.KAA22224@servo.qualcomm.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > event, I don't think the lack of source really precludes ham > experimentation if you just want to use the vocoder as a building > block for some digital speech experiments. This ties you up to the platforms Qualcomm happens to support, and leads you to depend on Q's fortune. There are many vocoders with source code around, and I suspect QCELP wouldn't so much better than the rest that I don't quite see why I should use QCELP :-) > >You don't need an upcoming SS system to transmit digital voice, > >DK7WJ reports success on using 2.4kbit/s LPC over the current > >packet radio network here in europe. > Entirely true. Of course, 2.4kb/s LPC sounds almost as bad as ssb. :-) This is probably comparable in speech quality to the 16kbit/s CVSD codec used in Detis voice mail system for S&F. And I've never heard any of the many users complain about the voice quality. I suspect Qualcomm made a different experience with IS95? Is that why you've silently increased the peak bitrate of QCELP to 13kbit/s? (it was around 7kbit/s if I remeber correctly some time ago) Tom From tmanolescu@instantel.com Wed Jun 25 11:12:36 1997 Received: from instantel.instantel.com (instantel.instantel.com [207.61.186.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id LAA13964; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 11:12:30 -0500 (CDT) Received: from INSTANTEL.Instantel.com [207.61.186.3] (HELO localhost) by instantel.instantel.com (AltaVista Mail V1.0/1.0 BL18 listener) id 0000_004c_33b1_4302_9224; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:10:42 -0400 Message-ID: <13684FD9F298D011AD8800609769CE77071247@mailhost.Instantel.com> From: Ted Manolescu To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Cc: "'hfsig@tapr.org'" , "'ham@sss.org'" Subject: Microstrip antenna design - help ! Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:15:42 -0400 X-Priority: 3 Return-Receipt-To: Ted Manolescu MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.0.1457.3) Content-Type: text/plain Hi everybody ! Does anybody know some references ( technical literature and software tools design ) for microstrip antenna ? Thanks in advance ! Ted Manolescu 613 592 4642 From N5RG@aol.com Wed Jun 25 12:13:48 1997 Received: from emout11.mail.aol.com (emout11.mx.aol.com [198.81.11.26]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA18152 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 12:13:45 -0500 (CDT) From: N5RG@aol.com Received: (from root@localhost) by emout11.mail.aol.com (8.7.6/8.7.3/AOL-2.0.0) id NAA04493; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:12:27 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <970625131220_322908056@emout11.mail.aol.com> To: ss@tapr.org cc: k5di@acca.nmsu.edu Subject: Re: [SS:1549] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet Phil: I must commend you for your courage in stating what the situation actually is. The sooner the Amateur Radio world comes to grip with reality, the sooner it will be able to make some progress. > At the risk of igniting a flame war, I believe the direct application > of ham radio to emergency communications is now just about > irrelevant. There are too many alternatives that are too available and > work too well. Furthermore, new alternatives are appearing for high > speed Internet access to the home that don't suffer from the inherent > drawbacks of ham radio, e.g., restrictions on content, encryption, > business use, etc. I agree. And there are several new methods that are about to appear. > Freed from the "mandate" to provide emergency communications, and > freed from the illusion that we'll ever build a large scale, high > speed Internet on the ham bands, I see ham radio returning to its > experimental roots with an emphasis on technical training and > education. The skills you pick up as a ham can certainly be applied to > emergency communications, most likely using non-amateur equipment. But > the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or > otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. Unless a total collapse of our society occurs, I think you are correct. In spite of some forecasts of impending doom, I don't think our society is going to collapse any time soon. 73, Roy W7IDM, ex N5RG & W5PAG From mike@aloha.net Wed Jun 25 13:44:15 1997 Received: from haleakala.aloha.net (root@haleakala.aloha.net [204.94.112.33]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA29227 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 13:44:13 -0500 (CDT) Received: from hookomo.aloha.net (mike.u.aloha.net [204.94.114.7]) by haleakala.aloha.net (8.8.5/8.6.9) with SMTP id IAA07354 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:43:32 -1000 (HST) Message-ID: <33B167F0.5468@aloha.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 08:48:16 -1000 From: Mike Scott Organization: WWC X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.0 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1558] emergency communications References: <199706241826.OAA03467@smtp3.erols.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony McConnell wrote: > > Phil said: > But > the days of ham radio as a serious alternative (emergency or > otherwise) to non-amateur facilities are over for good. > > Phil > > i must overall agree with you here. but i still look back at > the packet bash at dayton this year and can see the smoke pouring > out of the ears of that guy you cheesed off about this topic. > > i've working in the communications field for a while now. i > worked on putting up some of the very first cell sites ever built. > i've worked on some ham radio repeaters. i stand by your statement > that evening in dayton that after the hurricane/earthquake/.... > whatever the cellsite has a better chance of still being working. > battery&generator backed, proper transient suppression on antenna > and phone lines, quality installation. microwave linking in many > cases. the ability to turn off users that are overloading a system > to keep it clear for real emergency users(though i don't believe this > is used in most amps systems). compare this to people who run a > system that can't figure out if polyphaser was from star trek or > star wars.Just as an FYI...I was (still am) in Hawaii when Iniki struck and both cellular carriers were off the air. Ham radio was our only source of comms for several days. From jeff@mich.com Wed Jun 25 19:02:06 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA00311 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:02:05 -0500 (CDT) From: jeff@mich.com Received: from alfalfa (pm001-39.dialip.mich.com [198.108.17.163]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id UAA09369; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 20:02:34 -0400 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970625235939.00d85fd0@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 19:59:39 -0400 To: ss@tapr.org, Ted Manolescu Subject: Re: [SS:1564] Microstrip antenna design - help ! At 06:15 PM 6/25/97 -0500, Ted Manolescu wrote: > > > Hi everybody ! > Does anybody know some references ( technical literature and software >tools design ) for microstrip antenna ? I have some stuff on making impedance matched strip lines on PCB's for doing high speed ECL/Digital design but I don't think this is what you want. It focus's on the dielectric constant of the substrate (G4 or teflon), the thickness of the substrate and the width of the trace. The trace in all cases is above a ground plane and/or power plane. This was from a high speed PCB design course I took a few years ago. Let me know if you find anything regarding microstrip antennas, in particular ones you can etch on a PCB, I'd be quite interested. Thanks -Jeff Regards, ------------------------------------ | Jeff King Aero Data Systems | | jeff@mich.com P.O. Box 510895 | | (810)471-1787 Livonia, MI 48151 | |F(810)471-0279 United States | ------------------------------------ From sadowski@bellatlantic.net Wed Jun 25 21:07:38 1997 Received: from mail1.bellatlantic.net (mail1.bellatlantic.net [199.45.32.38]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA08316 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:07:35 -0500 (CDT) Received: from whiskey (20424510665.bellatlantic.net [204.245.106.65]) by mail1.bellatlantic.net (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id VAA24522 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:09:49 -0500 (EST) Message-ID: <33B1CE83.7321@bellatlantic.net> Date: Wed, 25 Jun 1997 22:05:55 -0400 From: "P.A. Sadowski" X-Mailer: Mozilla 2.02E (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:1566] Re: emergency communications References: <33B167F0.5468@aloha.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > star wars.Just as an FYI...I was (still am) in Hawaii when Iniki struck and both > cellular carriers were off the air. Ham radio was our only source of > comms for several days. I was there too - a little known fact but Hawaiian Tel received special FCC permission to use a Ham Repeater to do business on for a short while. The repeater above Makakilo - Oahu was solid into Kauai.... so it was used to assist HawTel in aligning the microwave gear that the US Marines flew into Kauai - - from Molokai for HawTel! also for about a week (since almost all the lines on Kauai were down) the same repeater was used to request medicine and emergency supplies... a number of resorts now have ham antenna's installed (despite the "negative" visual impact) because that was the only way their guests were able to relay their safe status to the world... a lot of folks on Kauai have a different attitude towards Hams due to that "little" storm... bottom line is that for a couple days Ham radio was it into the island of Kauai... even military stuff wasn't running much less commercial stuff... BTW... southern Fla (Homestead) had same problem... sure, the Telco's eventually got mobile/portable Cell Sites in... but for a few days it was just hams... No flame's intended here... neither should we pat ourselves on the back ... we are being attacked for our spectrum space by commercial interests... and only by education can we show the public/gov't what we can contribute... hopefully one area is in technology - like SS How much Q'Comm stock do folks here own? From rparsons@paccomm.com Wed Jun 25 21:47:25 1997 Received: from paccomm.com (paccomm.com [163.125.30.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA09807 for ; Wed, 25 Jun 1997 21:47:22 -0500 (CDT) Received: from [205.238.168.42] by paccomm.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0wh4Oy-000FSKC; Wed, 25 Jun 97 22:35 EDT Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 02:35:08 +0000 To: ss@tapr.org From: rparsons@paccomm.com (Ronald G. Parsons) Subject: Re: [SS:1564] Microstrip antenna design - help ! "Microstrip Antenna Technology", IEEE Trans. on Antennas and Propagation, Vol. AP-29, No. 1, January 1981, p.2 > > Hi everybody ! > Does anybody know some references ( technical literature and software >tools design ) for microstrip antenna ? > Thanks in advance ! > Ted Manolescu > 613 592 4642 ------- Ron Parsons W5RKN From rs@ife.ee.ethz.ch Thu Jun 26 05:51:16 1997 Received: from ife.ee.ethz.ch (root@ife-ife3.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.25.193]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id FAA13946 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 05:51:14 -0500 (CDT) Received: from gillespie.ee.ethz.ch (rs@gillespie.ee.ethz.ch [129.132.25.135]) by ife.ee.ethz.ch (8.8.5/8.8.5) with ESMTP id MAA19278 for ; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:50:58 +0200 (MET DST) From: Rolf Sommerhalder Received: by gillespie.ee.ethz.ch (8.8.5) id MAA19714; Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:50:53 +0200 (MET DST) Message-Id: <199706261050.MAA19714@gillespie.ee.ethz.ch> Subject: Re: [SS:1560] Re:Is SS The Solution For High Speed Packet To: ss@tapr.org Date: Thu, 26 Jun 1997 12:50:52 +0200 (MET DST) In-Reply-To: <199706250024.TAA02453@zoom.bga.com> from Kent Farnsworth at "Jun 25, 97 06:09:23 pm" MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit There have been several comments on emergency telcommunications and HAM radio on this list. Please allow me to express my private concern that the international community could perceive some HAM organisations as not being prepared to cooperate with relief organisations very well. On May 17, we had World Telecommunication Day 1997 (WTD'97) by the International Telecommunication Union (a U.N. organisation). This year's main theme was emergency communications (see http://www.itu.ch/PPI/wtd/). In front of ITU's and the UN's main building in Geneva, we had set-up a huge tent full of exhibits geared towards emergency telecommunication which was operated and demonstrated life. This week-long exhibition received a lot of attention from the public and from officials of governmental, international and non-governmental organisations. During the event, the Working Group on Emergency Telecommunications (WGET) was meeting to discuss (among other topics) the necessity of allocating some VHF analog FM voice channels for inter-agency emergency coordination on an international basis. At the same time, a very active partner struggled to set-up a similar, though much smaller, event in the US at Dallas/Texas on JR's Southfork Range, featuring satellite links, video conferencing and amateur radio with Geneva. During the preparation of the WGET meeting, this partner was checking and discussing the possibility of allocating those VHF channels in the 2m HAM band in accordance with ITU Resolution 640. Res. 640 recommends administrations to allow emergency relief organisations to use HAM bands, but this requires approval by the national authorities on a case-by-case basis. Unfortunately, the "HAM community" (i.e. the ARRL and the IARU, or at least some of their exponents) was not even prepared to discuss the proactive allocation of such coordination channels in the 2m HAM band which would only come into use in emergency situations, and after the national authority would permit operation under Res. 640. I was told by the organizer that in consequence, the "HAM community" did even boycott the Dallas event on WTD'97, missing the opportunity to mark its presence in the emergency relief world. After this, combined with my own exerience in emergency operations with Swiss disaster relief (SDR) during small and large scale exercises in Switzerland and real missions abroad, I am convinced that it is an illusion wanting to share HAM bands during emergency relief operations: even though operating under Res. 640, we have been intentionally and un-intentionally jammed during life-saving relief operations and exercises. In consequence, I will strongly work within SDR towards moving all our VHF gear (wakie-talkies, repeaters) away from the 2m HAM band. I will also strongly support the decision of the WGET to allocate some VHF coordination channels on an international basis which will be far off from the 2m HAM band. Being a HAM myself, I think the attitude taken by some HAM organisations on defending spectrum is unfortunate in this particular case: official relief organisations and HAMs will not be able to communicate and coordinate in emergencies seamlessly anymore. And the HAM community paradoxically gives up a particular good reason for having exclusive spectrum allocations: being part of emergency telecommunications and being able to immediatly "rent out" spectrum to official relief organisations during acute emergencies per Res. 640. Converse to this, most of the active telecomm experts in my group at SDR are/have been HAMs. The human resources which HAM radio can potentially contribute to emergency telcommunications is considerable and is being welcome by the international relief community. So much for the reality on emergency telcommunications in connection with HAM radio. If this mailling list considers this discussion drifting off-topic, then I could suggest another list where to continue the discussion (even though that list is specific to international emergency telcommunications, but not particularly HAM-related/-oriented). 73, Rolf (HB9CWP) From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Mon Jun 30 12:04:37 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id MAA18830 for ; Mon, 30 Jun 1997 12:04:03 -0500 (CDT) Received: from wb9mjn-1.ampr.org by wb9mjn.ampr.org (JNOS1.10i) with SMTP id AA14590 ; Mon, 30 Jun 97 10:25:04 UTC Message-ID: <33B7E588.C76@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Date: Mon, 30 Jun 1997 11:57:44 -0500 From: Don Lemke Reply-To: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Organization: Ant-Panel Products X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: emergency communications Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hi Guys, As Hawaii Tel did during the aftermath of Hurricane Iniki, Ameritech did after a man made disaster. When the west suburban switching center, went up in flames, here in Chicagoland, the local 145.25 repeater was used by Ameritech in the reconstruction efforts. Their own in-house capability had been destroyed by the fire. This is a real-world actually-happened example of the Omnipresence point I made in a previous message. -- 73, Don. AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu Website: http://www.qth.com/antpanel