From djk@tobit.co.uk Wed Jan 01 05:50:41 1997 Received: from dirku.tobit.co.uk (dirku.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.189]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id FAA05479 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:50:38 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 3565 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jan 1997 11:49:59 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:49:59 +0000 (GMT) From: Dirk Koopman Reply-To: djk@tobit.co.uk To: Phil Karn cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:766] Re: .. Process Gain In-Reply-To: <199701010236.SAA17883@servo.qualcomm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Phil Karn wrote: > Yes, FEC will beat thermal noise -- to a point. That point is the > Shannon limit for an infinite bandwidth channel: -1.6 dB Eb/N0. Note > the units; Eb is the energy in joules per *user data bit* (NOT energy > per chip, or energy per coded modulation symbol or anything else), and > N0 is the thermal noise spectral density in watts/hertz. Since joules > = watts/hz, the ratio is dimensionless. > There was some talk awhile back about incorporating FEC into the spreading codes (as opposed to the data). Was this a wild idea (or my misunderstanding) or is it possible and what does it mean in terms of usefulness. Dirk -- Dirk-Jan Koopman Tel/Fax: +44 1362 696076 Mobile: +44 973 333806 Computer Consultant Email: djk@tobit.co.uk or G1TLH@GB7TLH.#35.GBR.EU "The typewriting machine, when played with expression, is no more annoying than the piano when played by a sister or near relation." --Oscar Wilde From djk@tobit.co.uk Wed Jan 01 05:58:30 1997 Received: from dirku.tobit.co.uk (dirku.demon.co.uk [158.152.30.189]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id FAA05574 for ; Wed, 1 Jan 1997 05:58:27 -0600 (CST) Received: (qmail 3602 invoked by uid 500); 1 Jan 1997 11:57:49 -0000 Date: Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:57:49 +0000 (GMT) From: Dirk Koopman Reply-To: djk@tobit.co.uk To: Phil Karn cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:766] Re: .. Process Gain In-Reply-To: <199701010236.SAA17883@servo.qualcomm.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Tue, 31 Dec 1996, Phil Karn wrote: > >Hmmm... Thinking of FEC at SS is interesting and I'll go with that. But > >is it true that it will beat wideband thermal noise? As we add longer FEC > >codes (increasing the number of errors we can correct for), we have to > >increase the signaling rate (to keep the information rate constant). That > >means wider bandwidths, more noise power, and worse S/N. I suppose this is sort of related, but one of the things that I am confused about is practical freq reuse in DS system. Can you practically have n different 'channels' (with different spreading codes) centred on the same freq with the txcvrs in close proximity (assuming the powers/proximity is adjusted so that normal swamping doesn't occur). Dirk -- Dirk-Jan Koopman Tel/Fax: +44 1362 696076 Mobile: +44 973 333806 Computer Consultant Email: djk@tobit.co.uk or G1TLH@GB7TLH.#35.GBR.EU "The typewriting machine, when played with expression, is no more annoying than the piano when played by a sister or near relation." --Oscar Wilde From jarcher@tiac.net Thu Jan 02 00:29:53 1997 Received: from maildeliver0.tiac.net (maildeliver0.tiac.net [199.0.65.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA06261 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 00:29:52 -0600 (CST) Received: from mailnfs0.tiac.net (mailnfs0.tiac.net [199.0.65.17]) by maildeliver0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with ESMTP id BAA26396 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:29:51 -0500 (EST) Received: from localhost.tiac.net (jarcher.tiac.net [206.119.13.90]) by mailnfs0.tiac.net (8.8.0/8.8) with SMTP id BAA06144 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 01:29:49 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701020629.BAA06144@mailnfs0.tiac.net> From: "Jim Archer" To: "ss@tapr.org" Date: Thu, 02 Jan 97 01:29:48 -0400 Reply-To: "Jim Archer" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: James Archer's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: Backbone On Tue, 31 Dec 1996 10:50:29 -0600 (CST), Steve Sampson wrote: >What do you want to do? > >1. Do you want to create a backbone for a low-baud AX.25 network? >2. Do you want to Network several workstations? Well, I would like to network about five workstations, and have one of the workstations route to the Internet. It occured to me that if the digipeater is also doing the routing, there would be no throughput loss between any station and the Internat caused by the digi, since it would not be digi-ing at that point. >Extrapolate your usage. Down the road you will no doubt be running >multiple network connections to multiple servers/workstations. It's >hard to visualize a radio network in ethernet terms, as the radios >can't be in parallel. If you stick with a serial network, sooner or >later it will collapse, with the nodes in the middle doing all the >work. Yes, I see what you mean. I have never designed a LAN in which all the workstations were not visible to all the others on its segment (Ethernet and Token Ring). I guess the best thing to do it to have a "server" for each small area where all radios can hear each other, but this seems expensive. I guess my problem is that I don't understand how the radios work in multipoint mode verses point-to-point mode. In multipoint mode, is each node assigned a tims slice? If so, is each time slice as long as it takes to transmit a frame? If so, that seems like it would reduce the max theoretical throughput to 172Kbps divided by the number of nodes. In point to point, If that means each node can only communicate with one other node, and we wanted only one radio per node, I suspect each node could communicate directly with a digipeater, but only if the digipeater can have a broadcast mode. Anyhow, I think if I look into what these radios do and how they do it, I'll be able to come up with a half way descent way to deploy the LAN. Thanks for your advice! Jim ***************************************************************** * PGP Key available from: www.tiac.net/users/jarcher * * Fingerprint: * 56 BA 7B 48 22 5C 1D BD CB 15 F2 AC B3 32 24 A8 ***************************************************************** From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jan 02 13:01:19 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-009.wwa.com [206.222.42.10]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA13658 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:00:01 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23204; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:15:50 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:15:50 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: FreeWave... Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi.. I assume everyone who is presently using these radios are doing so with them (relatively) unmodified. I am unclear if an unmodified unit attached to a Yagi is still a part 15 device or not? Doesn't part 15 have a EIRP limit? Or is it just the power output limit. I don't know many hams near me that are interested, but I could rustle up a few non-hams for Part 15 if that is the case. Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com KA9VAW@amsat.org From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jan 02 13:01:30 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-009.wwa.com [206.222.42.10]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA13810 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:01:21 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA23211; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:17:26 -0600 Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 12:17:26 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:717] Re: ss In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 27 Dec 1996, Greg Jones, WD5IVD wrote: > Lots of people use TNC-1 with the KISS EPROMs installed. I have one in the > corner doing KISS as I type this message. Does a good job. > > There was an upgrade to the TNC-1 to make it into a TNC-2 years and years > ago. Maybe you are talking about some other upgrade long before I was > involved. Unless you double clock the TNC-1 the turn around time to too poor with the KISS TNC-1 code. I have one in a closet too... > > Cheers - Greg > > >This is news to me! If someone is still using TAPR-1's, and wants another, > >how about giving me a call? Unless the upgrade we were promised is soon > >coming, I kind of want to get rid of this albatross....de alan > > > >>> (if i'm going to own a white elephant i want a pair to breed) > >> > >>I don't see these as a white elephant, There are still people using there > >TNC-1 units. Are those white > >>elephants ? If they are, people are still getting good use out of them. > Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org From dewayne@warpspeed.com Thu Jan 02 13:51:17 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (WA8DZP@odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA18313 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:51:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:51:11 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 11:50:52 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:770] FreeWave... At 1:06 PM -0600 1/2/97, Fred M. Spinner wrote: >I am unclear if an unmodified unit attached to a Yagi is still a part 15 >device or not? Doesn't part 15 have a EIRP limit? Or is it just the >power output limit. The Part 15 limit is 4 W EIRP. Anything that you do with output power and antenna gain cannot exceed this value. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jeff@mich.com Thu Jan 02 13:53:35 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA18418 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 13:53:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA18394 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:49:10 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970102195345.006c2c10@mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 14:53:45 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Is anyone aware of any multipoint application/driver software for the Wavelan? I believe they have a wavepoint box for this purpose but would like to see if they will work peer to peer. Linux and Win95 are boxes of choice. Thanks -Jeff wb8wka From bad@uhf.wireless.net Thu Jan 02 15:33:39 1997 Received: from uhf.wdc.net (uhf.wdc.net [198.147.74.44]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA25266 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:33:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (bad@localhost) by uhf.wdc.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA07384 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:36:24 -0500 (EST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:36:24 -0500 (EST) From: Bernie Doehner To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:773] Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970102195345.006c2c10@mich.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Is anyone aware of any multipoint application/driver > software for the Wavelan? I believe they have a > wavepoint box for this purpose but would like to > see if they will work peer to peer. Linux and > Win95 are boxes of choice. > Hi Jeff: What do you mean by multipoint? Wavelans emulate ethernet (assuming every station can hear every other station). If you mean multicasting, both the FreeBSD and Linux drivers, as well as the Win95 DEC RoamAbout PCMCIA drivers support multicasting. Regards, Bernie From buaas@wireless.net Thu Jan 02 16:43:24 1997 Received: from wireless.net (wireless.net [198.253.254.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA00673 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:43:20 -0600 (CST) Received: (from buaas@localhost) by wireless.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) id OAA11477; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:46:44 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 14:46:44 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert A. Buaas" Message-Id: <199701022246.OAA11477@wireless.net> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:773] Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Cc: jeff@mich.com Jeff-- any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're interested. best regards/bob K6KGS From sscalsk@mail.ameritel.net Thu Jan 02 16:55:56 1997 Received: from mail.ameritel.net (mail.ameritel.net [204.183.96.161]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA01594 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:55:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from pt9.an2.ameritel.net by mail.ameritel.net (NTMail 3.02.04) id qa417186; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 17:58:03 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970102125753.3de7ac78@mail.ameritel.net> X-Sender: sscalsk@mail.ameritel.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 17:57:53 +0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Stan Scalsky Subject: general question In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? -= stan From dewayne@warpspeed.com Thu Jan 02 17:31:23 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (WA8DZP@odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA04211 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 17:31:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:31:16 -0800 Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:31:12 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: 2.4 GHz WaveLAN's Speaking of WaveLAN's, has anyone out there experience with the 2.4 GHz WaveLAN ISA cards? I recently obtained a couple and wanted see if anyone had some experience before I started my testing. Thanks, -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jan 02 18:13:35 1997 Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA06139 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:13:33 -0600 (CST) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.4/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id QAA22189; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 16:07:38 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Karn Message-Id: <199701030007.QAA22189@servo.qualcomm.com> To: djk@tobit.co.uk CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (message from Dirk Koopman on Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:57:49 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: [SS:766] Re: .. Process Gain >I suppose this is sort of related, but one of the things that I am >confused about is practical freq reuse in DS system. Can you practically >have n different 'channels' (with different spreading codes) centred on >the same freq with the txcvrs in close proximity (assuming the >powers/proximity is adjusted so that normal swamping doesn't occur). This invokes the classic "near-far problem". If you have a bunch of transmitters all sending to the same receiver, you can do it as long as the signal levels are all matched at the receiver and you don't have too many transmitters sending at once. The maximum number of transmitters you can support assuming perfect power control is equal to the process gain minus the required Eb/N0 for each signal at the demodulator. E.g., if you have a process gain of 100 (20 dB) and the modulation & coding requires an Eb/N0 of 5 dB, then you can support up to 20 - 5 = 15 dB-users or 31.6 users. This ignores thermal noise, which reduces the capacity further. (You can model thermal noise as being equivalent to some number of non-revenue-paying users.) Note that with a process gain of 100, you could have divided up your spectrum into 100 narrowband channels and supported 100 simultaneous users -- not 31.6. And if thermal noise is low, you could run with larger Eb/N0 and achieve higher data rates. So in this particular situation, spread spectrum actually has *less* capacity than a conventional FDMA or TDMA narrowband scheme. This is why you don't see spread spectrum being used in satellite TV broadcasting, for example. Where spread spectrum has its advantage is in a geographical reuse situation, especially where there are many users each using a small and irregular fraction of the system capacity. Cellular telephony and wireless LANs are the classic examples. In these situations, the ability to geographically reuse spectrum more compactly, plus the lack of contention overhead of the sort you find in narrowband random access systems, tilts the balance in favor of spread spectrum. Phil From karn@qualcomm.com Thu Jan 02 18:39:46 1997 Received: from warlock.qualcomm.com (warlock.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.129]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA07870 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:39:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from servo.qualcomm.com (servo.qualcomm.com [129.46.101.170]) by warlock.qualcomm.com (8.8.4/1.4d/8.7.2/1.12) with ESMTP id PAA25391 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:57:41 -0800 (PST) Received: (from karn@localhost) by servo.qualcomm.com (8.8.4/1.4/8.7.2/1.9) id PAA22168; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:56:04 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 15:56:04 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Karn Message-Id: <199701022356.PAA22168@servo.qualcomm.com> To: djk@tobit.co.uk CC: ss@tapr.org In-reply-to: (message from Dirk Koopman on Wed, 1 Jan 1997 11:49:59 +0000 (GMT)) Subject: Re: [SS:766] Re: .. Process Gain >There was some talk awhile back about incorporating FEC into the spreading >codes (as opposed to the data). Was this a wild idea (or my >misunderstanding) or is it possible and what does it mean in terms of >usefulness. It's not clear to me what this means. Since the spreading codes are deterministic, i.e., they're already known in advance to the receiver, there's not much point in adding error correction to them. In the sense that the error correction symbols are a pseudorandom (though deterministic) function of the data bits, I guess you could see them much like a spreading function. For example, a typical rate 1/2 convolutional code combined with a 128:1 PN spreading sequence could be represented by a low rate (1/256) convolutional code with some randomly chosen taps. Phil From jerryn@ici.net Thu Jan 02 18:59:52 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA09274 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:59:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-39.ici.net [207.180.10.48]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA24617 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:55:52 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32CC5775.1B45EAB8@ici.net> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 19:48:53 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:773] Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <2.2.32.19970102195345.006c2c10@mich.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jeff King wrote: > > Is anyone aware of any multipoint application/driver > software for the Wavelan? I believe they have a > wavepoint box for this purpose but would like to > see if they will work peer to peer. Linux and > Win95 are boxes of choice. > > Thanks > > -Jeff wb8wka Gee... I am 100% multipoint. TCP/IP protocol does the trick plus I use a wireless router protocol that manages mobile and fixed router tables. Linux is the OS for the Router PERIOD! Windows95 is only adequate for the clients and is a poor OS to do any hopping off of. I have several sites set up as routers. The traffic is very similar to TCP/Ip riding on top of 802.3 I don't have an AMATURE Radio license because of all the damn restrictions the FCC and ARRL puts on you. But I am an advid hobbyist and I am an engineer by trade. I get around the part 15 rules by using a phase array antennea on my hop points and a parabolic dish at the client sites. A mere 900mw of power can cover 23Miles like this! From jerryn@ici.net Thu Jan 02 19:00:55 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA09318 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:00:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-39.ici.net [207.180.10.48]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id TAA24798 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:56:52 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32CC57B2.F46CACB@ici.net> Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 19:49:54 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:776] general question References: <2.2.16.19970102125753.3de7ac78@mail.ameritel.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Stan Scalsky wrote: > > In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that > most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the > GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are > there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? > > -= stan Hey... Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz From zsolt@direct.ca Thu Jan 02 19:32:20 1997 Received: from aphex.direct.ca (root@aphex.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA11918 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:32:19 -0600 (CST) Received: from boxer.direct.ca (van-pm-0202.direct.ca [204.174.243.32]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id RAA04599; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 17:32:07 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 18:33:45 -0800 (PST) From: George Cserenyi To: Jerry Normandin cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:781] Re: general question In-Reply-To: <32CC57B2.F46CACB@ici.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > Stan Scalsky wrote: > > > > In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that > > most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the > > GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are > > there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? ============= > > > > -= stan > Hey... > > Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz > Hey... how far below 30 MHz is 902-925Mhz? From wd5ivd@tapr.org Thu Jan 02 19:41:47 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA12586 for ; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:41:43 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32CC57B2.F46CACB@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:47:48 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: [SS:781] Re: general question >Stan Scalsky wrote: >> >> In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that >> most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the >> GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are >> there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? >> >> -= stan Hi Stan. The answer is yes. The military has been operating systems for a long time (years) below 30Mhz. In addition AMRAD and some unsaid govt group had a system below 30Mhz back in the early 80's when they were doing the other SS technology work. Nothing was ever published on the HF stuff. Only stores I here told by those involved. Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From kd6buy@netcom.com Fri Jan 03 01:05:18 1997 Received: from netcom16.netcom.com (root@netcom16.netcom.com [192.100.81.129]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id BAA09503 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 01:05:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from eden (kd6buy@netcom7.netcom.com [192.100.81.115]) by netcom16.netcom.com (8.6.13/Netcom) id XAA04666; Thu, 2 Jan 1997 23:05:07 -0800 Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970102230836.00697be8@netcom16.netcom.com> X-Sender: kd6buy@netcom16.netcom.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Thu, 02 Jan 1997 23:08:48 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: "David A. Wright" Subject: Re: [SS:775] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" I'm hoping you can help me... I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free Wave network. Question: Do you think this is possible? I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the connection, to and from the ethernet network. If you can't help, do you know anyone doing this? or someone else who can help? I'm new to the list, do you think this would be an appropriate post to the group? Is another list discussing this? Thank you for your time. All help will be greatly appreciated! -Dave At 04:48 PM 1/2/97 -0600, you wrote: Jeff-- any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're interested. best regards/bob K6KGS From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Fri Jan 03 08:00:19 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA25565 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:00:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id JAA11725 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:00:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA19597; Fri, 3 Jan 97 09:00:11 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id JAA11416; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:00:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:00:09 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701031400.JAA11416@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:783] Re: general question X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > From ss@tapr.org Thu Jan 2 22:13:55 1997 > Date: Thu, 2 Jan 1997 19:55:07 -0600 (CST) > Originator: ss@tapr.org > From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" > To: ss@tapr.org > Subject: [SS:783] Re: general question > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Spread Spectrum > > >Stan Scalsky wrote: > >> > >> In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that > >> most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the > >> GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are > >> there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? > >> > >> -= stan > > Hi Stan. > > The answer is yes. > > The military has been operating systems for a long time (years) below > 30Mhz. In addition AMRAD and some unsaid govt group had a system below > 30Mhz back in the early 80's when they were doing the other SS technology > work. Nothing was ever published on the HF stuff. Only stores I here told > by those involved. > > Cheers - Greg > What was the 'other SS technology work?' And what are these stories you have heard? Inquiring minds want to know 8>) 73s Tony From jerryn@ici.net Fri Jan 03 08:11:59 1997 Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA26135 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:11:57 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix (localhost) by nelix.ici.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00840; Fri, 3 Jan 97 09:07:43 EST Sender: develop@ici.net Message-Id: <32CD12AE.167EB0E7@ici.net> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 09:07:42 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:782] Re: general question References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George Cserenyi wrote: > > On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > > > Stan Scalsky wrote: > > > > > > In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that > > > most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the > > > GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are > > > there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? > ============= > > > > > > -= stan > > Hey... > > > > Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz > > > Hey... how far below 30 MHz is 902-925Mhz? Jerry Replied, Man I must not be getting enough sleep! I thought you said 30Ghz! Man you must get terrible bit transfer rates at 30Mhz or below! I prefer averaging at least 1.6Mbs!!! I can't live with 300cps. No way! Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From jerryn@ici.net Fri Jan 03 08:12:56 1997 Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA26202 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 08:12:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix (localhost) by nelix.ici.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA00843; Fri, 3 Jan 97 09:08:41 EST Sender: develop@ici.net Message-Id: <32CD12E8.2781E494@ici.net> Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 09:08:40 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:784] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <3.0.32.19970102230836.00697be8@netcom16.netcom.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit David A. Wright wrote: > > I'm hoping you can help me... > I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 > to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. > On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free > Wave network. > Question: Do you think this is possible? > I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to > have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the > connection, to and from the ethernet network. > > If you can't help, do you know anyone doing this? or someone > else who can help? I'm new to the list, do you think this > would be an appropriate post to the group? Is another list > discussing this? > > Thank you for your time. > All help will be greatly appreciated! > -Dave > > At 04:48 PM 1/2/97 -0600, you wrote: > Jeff-- > > any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. > The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally > a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver > and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're > interested. > > best regards/bob K6KGS You are better off using Linux! Many HAMS are doing this with Linux and the code is available on the net. -- Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From strohs@halcyon.com Fri Jan 03 09:49:15 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA02186; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:49:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from chinook.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA11903; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:48:34 -0800 Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 07:49:00 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: TAPR Spread Spectrum SIG Mailing List , TAPR SS STA Mailing List Subject: Re: [SS:784] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970102230836.00697be8@netcom16.netcom.com> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, David A. Wright wrote: > I'm hoping you can help me... > I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 > to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. > On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free > Wave network. > Question: Do you think this is possible? > I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to > have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the > connection, to and from the ethernet network. I don't understand your reluctance to use dial-up networking. Since the FreeWave's are PPP-only devices, that's really your only choice. NT (I've no experience yet with 4.0) understands modems, but I don't think understands SLIP/PPP direct connections. Using dial-up networking should achieve what you want- the connection should establish dynamically based on the presence of data. For instance, if on the W95 client you start up a Web browser with a remote home page, that should trigger the dial up networking to automatically initiate the dial-up connection. This is probably better discussed on the ss-sta list, since it deals specifically with issues involved in the STA, including use of the FreeWave units. -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From bstrick@dallas.net Fri Jan 03 10:18:46 1997 Received: from dns.plano.net (dns.plano.net [204.215.60.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA04110 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:18:44 -0600 (CST) Received: from nt-35 (aux173.plano.net) by dns.plano.net (5.x/SMI-SVR4) id AA04638; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 10:18:46 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970103161104.0030819c@plano.net> X-Sender: bstrick@plano.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 03 Jan 1997 10:11:04 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: Bob Stricklin Subject: Re: [SS:784] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? I too am using Win NT40 Server. Microsoft's implementation of TCPIP is not complete and does not include SLIP connections. You may want to set up a second UNIX based computer and network this computer with NT40. Then you can work with a more robust implementation of TCPIP. This will give you another complete set of problems as you can see from questions that have been ask and problems people or having getting this set up. It will work though. You may use Linux or if it is non commercial go get the $20 copy (CD) of SCO (See: www.sco.com). You may also be able to get it to work with NT40 and a ISDN modem. I have not looked into this myself but it may be worth pursuing. If you are a C++ programmer Microsoft offers enough info on there development CDs to modify the port drivers. This will be a lot of effort also unless you already are working with the development systems. At 01:07 AM 1/3/97 -0600, you wrote: >I'm hoping you can help me... >I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 >to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. >On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free >Wave network. >Question: Do you think this is possible? >I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to >have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the >connection, to and from the ethernet network. > >If you can't help, do you know anyone doing this? or someone >else who can help? I'm new to the list, do you think this >would be an appropriate post to the group? Is another list >discussing this? > >Thank you for your time. >All help will be greatly appreciated! >-Dave > >At 04:48 PM 1/2/97 -0600, you wrote: >Jeff-- > >any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. >The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally >a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver >and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're >interested. > >best regards/bob K6KGS > > > > Bob Stricklin, N5BRG bstrick@dallas.net AKA: bstrick@plano.net bstrick@tenet.edu Dallas, Texas From wd5ivd@tapr.org Fri Jan 03 11:53:16 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA08906 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:53:13 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <32CD12AE.167EB0E7@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 11:41:52 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: [SS:786] Re: general question >> > > -= stan >> > Hey... >> > >> > Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz >> > >> Hey... how far below 30 MHz is 902-925Mhz? > >Jerry Replied, > >Man I must not be getting enough sleep! I thought you said 30Ghz! > >Man you must get terrible bit transfer rates at 30Mhz or below! >I prefer averaging at least 1.6Mbs!!! > As has been discussed over on the HF SIG, there is a lot of interest by someone to implementing SS on HF bands. There are already systems there doing it and the possibility of being able to deliver say 9600bps or a little faster in order to do CD quality audio for communications or even that kind of data transfer is very exciting. Plus you have other issues of interest, ALE possibilites if it is a hybrid, multi-path issuse, etc. If anyone is interested, you should pop over on the FTP site and grab the mail archives from the last 6 months and scan them. Phil and others had some very good discussion on what the goal and implementation might be. I think the eventual goal is to get SS rules adopted on HF as well as 50Mhz and above. Just one battle at a time please. Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From tenney@think.org Fri Jan 03 12:44:39 1997 Received: from think.org (gateway.think.org [206.14.80.187]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id MAA12849 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 12:44:36 -0600 (CST) Received: from [206.14.123.131] by think.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #57) id m0vg8iv-000OP8C; Fri, 3 Jan 97 12:27 GMT Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <3.0.32.19970102230836.00697be8@netcom16.netcom.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 09:35:55 -0700 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Glenn S. Tenney KOTJ" Subject: Re: [SS:788] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? At 8:53 AM -0700 1/3/97, Steve Stroh wrote: >I don't understand your reluctance to use dial-up networking. Since the >FreeWave's are PPP-only devices, that's really your only choice. Say what? The FreeWaves look like a null modem cable so you can run anything you want with them. I've used PPP and SLIP as well as vt100 to vt100... --- Glenn Tenney KOTJ Fantasia Systems Inc. tenney@think.org Amateur radio: AA6ER Voice: (415) 574-3420 Fax: (415) 574-0546 From wd5ivd@tapr.org Fri Jan 03 14:07:51 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA18698 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:07:48 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 14:12:19 -0600 To: " Spread Spectrum " From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Group Purchase on 900Mhz FHSS systems. I have had several e-mails about the change in the Freewave radio group purchase page that took place last night. TAPR posted the page last Thursday and on Tuesday the president of Freewave had several issues regarding certain information that was being provided on the page. I updated the page on Tuesday night, but on Thur Freewave wanted to have some additional wording and information changed. Dewayne and myself decided to just pull the page for the weekend so that we would have enough time to make sure Freewave and TAPR was happy with the final page. The updated page, which everyone will have signed off on, will be back online first of next week. Dorothy is still taking orders submitted from the on-line order form and via phone. Plans are still to place the first order at the end of January and we already have some 50+ orders in the system for an end of January purchase (in less than 7 days!). The first 65 radios, which is part of the beta usage purchase (work out the kinks in ordering with Freewave, writing usage docs, etc) should be arriving sometime middle of January. If you think the purchase if going to fold becuase the information on the page is off-line, no worries, it isn't. We are just making sure we have a smooth working relationship with the mfg. Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From ostgate!OSTGATE!SADOWSKI@uunet.uu.net Fri Jan 03 15:37:38 1997 Received: from relay5.UU.NET (relay5.UU.NET [192.48.96.15]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA23486 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 15:37:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from uucp3.UU.NET by relay5.UU.NET with SMTP (peer crosschecked as: uucp3.UU.NET [192.48.96.34]) id QQbwyg13772; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:37:30 -0500 (EST) Received: from ostgate.UUCP by uucp3.UU.NET with UUCP/RMAIL ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:37:30 -0500 From: ostgate!OSTGATE!SADOWSKI@uunet.uu.net (Sam Adowski), (Greg Jones) Date: 03-Jan-97 16:50:00 -0300 Received: by ostgate (UUCP-MHS-XtcN) Fri Jan 03 16:52:58 1997 To: ss@tapr.org, uunet!tapr.org!ss@uunet.uu.net Subject: fwd: [SS:790] Re: general question Message-ID: 4338CD32816767E1 Importance: normal Encoding: 60 TEXT ======== Original Message ======== >> > > -= stan >> > Hey... >> > >> > Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz >> > >> Hey... how far below 30 MHz is 902-925Mhz? > >Jerry Replied, > >Man I must not be getting enough sleep! I thought you said 30Ghz! > >Man you must get terrible bit transfer rates at 30Mhz or below! >I prefer averaging at least 1.6Mbs!!! > As has been discussed over on the HF SIG, there is a lot of interest by someone to implementing SS on HF bands. There are already systems there doing it and the possibility of being able to deliver say 9600bps or a little faster in order to do CD quality audio for communications or even that kind of data transfer is very exciting. Plus you have other issues of interest, ALE possibilites if it is a hybrid, multi-path issuse, etc. If anyone is interested, you should pop over on the FTP site and grab the mail archives from the last 6 months and scan them. Phil and others had some very good discussion on what the goal and implementation might be. I think the eventual goal is to get SS rules adopted on HF as well as 50Mhz and above. Just one battle at a time please. Cheers - Greg ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- ======== Fwd by: Sam Adowski ======== I sure hope this gets to the right SIG... Lots of comments about Spread Spectrum at HF freqs the past few days... Well... over 130 pages of historical information (much of it at HF freqs) in the McGraw-Hill book entitled: Spread Spectrum Communications Handbook revised edition By: Simon, Omura, Scholtz, and Levitt.... a total of over 1200 pages on the subject and a good learning tool about not just the history - - but much of the technology, metrics, math, pitfalls - - etc..... I highly recommend it.... not cheap however.... Aloha Al AH6LS sadowski@ostgate.com From ssampson@oklahoma.net Fri Jan 03 16:06:30 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA25302 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:06:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.okc.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id QAA14417; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:10:43 -0600 Message-Id: <199701032210.QAA14417@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:790] Re: general question Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 16:02:32 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > I think the eventual goal is to get SS rules adopted on HF as well as 50Mhz > and above. Just one battle at a time please. > > Cheers - Greg People often say that the military uses SS on HF. I was mostly in Tactical, and Air Combat Commands, but if it's any consolation, the front line does not use SS on HF. Mostly they rely on Tadil-A on HF (Data link, one master, many slaves exchanging track symbology) with the Navy. Where SS has been blown out is in UHF and above. Most airborne units use the L-Band Hybrid SS JTIDS, and/or the Have Quick FHSS UHF radios. Just an aside, the E-3 uses only an L-Band Horn in the nose and tail to transmit JTIDS data. During most wars we linked up all E-3's this way. In the Iraq war we linked up the 3 orbits (NW Saudi, Central Saudi, Gulf Saudi). There is only one Vocoder on E-3's (back then, don't know about now) so we shared it. But it was commonly used as the Intel net where the RC-135 guys could coordinate with their cohorts on the E-3, and corelate emitters the another RC-135 on station. Only now are they looking at protocols that could allow something more than radar scope symbolgy (tracks, circles, points, etc). I don't think the troops in the field have seen HF SS, and it is mostly used at command or research levels still. The military is not at a much higher technology level than Amateurs. The problem with Amateurs is, they dink around with too many modes. Slow Scan, AM, FM, FSK, etc, etc. It's just a mess for a FH system to hop around in :-) I think some of the early Ham tests with Slow Hoppers turned out to be unusable. Steve From rw@txcc.net Fri Jan 03 22:16:35 1997 Received: from mail.txcc.net (mail.txcc.net [205.218.183.156]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA11300 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:16:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from buroak (port4.txcc.net [205.218.183.134]) by mail.txcc.net (8.7.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id UAA03646 for ; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 20:18:03 -0600 Received: by buroak with Microsoft Mail id <01BBF9AA.E3F28920@buroak>; Fri, 3 Jan 1997 19:18:24 -0600 Message-ID: <01BBF9AA.E3F28920@buroak> From: Ralph Ward To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 782] Re: general question Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 19:07:06 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BBF9AA.E3F28920" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF9AA.E3F28920 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit didn't I read somewhere that it just loops around like a good scroll bar? fall off one end and you reach the other? ---------- From: George Cserenyi[SMTP:zsolt@direct.ca] Sent: Thursday, January 02, 1997 1:41 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:782] Re: general question On Thu, 2 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > Stan Scalsky wrote: > > > > In watching spread spectrum develop over the last months or so I notice that > > most everything takes place at higher and higher frequencies, some up in the > > GHz range. Does that mean that spread spectrum has no place below 30MHz? Are > > there operational spread spectrum systems below 30MHz? ============= > > > > -= stan > Hey... > > Spread Spectrum is alive and well @902-925Mhz > Hey... how far below 30 MHz is 902-925Mhz? ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF9AA.E3F28920 Content-Type: application/ms-tnef Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 eJ8+IhgBAQaQCAAEAAAAAAABAAEAAQeQBgAIAAAA5AQAAAAAAADoAAENgAQAAgAAAAIAAgABBJAG APQAAAABAAAADAAAAAMAADADAAAACwAPDgAAAAACAf8PAQAAADUAAAAAAAAAgSsfpL6jEBmdbgDd AQ9UAgAAAABzc0B0YXByLm9yZwBTTVRQAHNzQHRhcHIub3JnAAAAAB4AAjABAAAABQAAAFNNVFAA AAAAHgADMAEAAAAMAAAAc3NAdGFwci5vcmcAAwAVDAEAAAADAP4PBgAAAB4AATABAAAADgAAACdz c0B0YXByLm9yZycAAAACAQswAQAAABEAAABTTVRQOlNTQFRBUFIuT1JHAAAAAAMAADkAAAAACwBA OgEAAAACAfYPAQAAAAQAAAAAAAADOyQBCIAHABgAAABJUE0uTWljcm9zb2Z0IE1haWwuTm90ZQAx CAEEgAEAHgAAAFJFOiA3ODJdIFJlOiBnZW5lcmFsIHF1ZXN0aW9uAJYJAQWAAwAOAAAAzQcBAAMA EwAHAAYABQD9AAEggAMADgAAAM0HAQADABMABgADAAUA+QABCYABACEAAAA2NDM1MzdFQTlBNjVE MDExOEU1MDQ0NDU1MzU0MDAwMADBBgEDkAYAzAQAABIAAAALACMAAAAAAAMAJgAAAAAACwApAAAA AAADADYAAAAAAEAAOQAg+FWa2/m7AR4AcAABAAAAHgAAAFJFOiA3ODJdIFJlOiBnZW5lcmFsIHF1 ZXN0aW9uAAAAAgFxAAEAAAAWAAAAAbv525pV6jc1ZWWaEdCOUERFU1QAAAAAHgAeDAEAAAAFAAAA U01UUAAAAAAeAB8MAQAAAAwAAAByd0B0eGNjLm5ldAADAAYQzzpgPgMABxBZAgAAHgAIEAEAAABl AAAARElETlRJUkVBRFNPTUVXSEVSRVRIQVRJVEpVU1RMT09QU0FST1VORExJS0VBR09PRFNDUk9M TEJBUj9GQUxMT0ZGT05FRU5EQU5EWU9VUkVBQ0hUSEVPVEhFUj8tLS0tLS0tLQAAAAACAQkQAQAA AFIDAABOAwAAJQYAAExaRnW0Njue/wAKAQ8CFQKoBesCgwBQAvIJAgBjaArAc2V0MjcGAAbDAoMy A8UCAHByQnER4nN0ZW0CgzN3AuQHEwKAfQqACM8J2TvxFg8yNTUCgAqBDbELYOBuZzEwMxRQCwoU UQUL8mMAQCBkaWRuEicFQEkgFhBhZCAWcwNwB9BoBJBlIHRLEYAFQGkFQGp1E8AguRWgb3AEIArA CGBuG7CIbGlrHFBhIGcdUC8bsQUABvADIGIKwD8gtmYHQAMgbw3QH9BuHFDvCfAbsABwG7B5CGAb chFw+xxhHFBvIYEfYAqFIiwK9BEeEDE4MALRaS0xPDQ0DfAM0CRzC1kxNtcKoANgE9BjBUAtJpcK h9clSwwwJhZGA2E6J54mFlEMgiBHZQWwZxxQQwMRsBYQbnlpW1NNEFRQOnob0Gx0QIca8BYQJmAu Y2FdJz+fKE0GYAIwKX8qi1RoCHCAc2RheSwgSgBwQnUKwHkgMDIyQDFIOTk3MxA6NBrQUOZNLa8o TVRvL+8qiwQQdkABkBNQLitxM+8uvnU8YmomUTYPKossQFM60Dc4Ml0H8GU7ACuQZSAwcgdAIHEK UBPAaecCICKfI6MzNiUXGkUmFv0iLE8DoDHBMkAR4DJhMxP3MkEEkDKxTgWwA4Ea8AOg6ncmIjoi LD4GAAGQA6DiUy1wbHNrMsBE20YQe0YQR2lJRLEckBFwC4BnFxvAE1Abk3AmUXJ1bdEa4GV2ZRWg cB/QSqC/BcAhggtgHREEYAIwaAQglwWxG9AbUW4hwGljHFT/R2kEYB0RSpEysBxwSUIBkL8eMAQg C1FNERyRSTBnHCGXIJNQJQNQZT4xbmMIkOZzMkAb0iB1SuBEoSGBMUdpR0h6G3AZAWUu+CBEbweR HHMHgAORHHPfSY4RgAQgTNBPhWJKsQfg+DMwTVOwH3AHEFLqIdK/IaFKAD3wPnI+AUmOcxOzvwQg V2oKhVzfXe9eqT1funNHb0fDLT0bwEZBRadIeGV5LmMQRadFp16hU/9JlGSQShUEAB2QHhBKoCCT JndKsAMgQDky4C058RhATWh6Y05eoGLkUBD/V5EfkAXAV2YF0FOxZZFmyF8iHz9PQF9BahUxAG9A AAADABAQAAAAAAMAERAAAAAAQAAHMCA1nnTb+bsBQAAIMCA1nnTb+bsBHgA9AAEAAAAFAAAAUkU6 IAAAAABrWw== ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBF9AA.E3F28920-- From wd5ivd@tapr.org Sat Jan 04 00:54:35 1997 Received: from [192.168.1.2] (knezek2.coe.unt.edu [129.120.111.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA26424 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 00:54:32 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701032210.QAA14417@dns.okc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 3 Jan 1997 22:03:52 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Re: [SS:794] Re: general question I think you should make your remark over on the HF SIG. I think you will get a much more detailed response since there are several on that list that have direct miltary background in the HF area. >From what I have read, there are HF SS systems that are used pretty close to front lines...not sure about people walking around with uints in backpacks, but communications vans that provide battle ground communications. Cheers - Greg >> I think the eventual goal is to get SS rules adopted on HF as well as 50Mhz >> and above. Just one battle at a time please. >> >> Cheers - Greg > >People often say that the military uses SS on HF. I was mostly in Tactical, >and Air Combat Commands, but if it's any consolation, the front line does not >use SS on HF. Mostly they rely on Tadil-A on HF (Data link, one master, many >slaves exchanging track symbology) with the Navy. Where SS has been blown >out is in UHF and above. Most airborne units use the L-Band Hybrid SS JTIDS, >and/or the Have Quick FHSS UHF radios. > >Just an aside, the E-3 uses only an L-Band Horn in the nose and tail to >transmit >JTIDS data. During most wars we linked up all E-3's this way. In the >Iraq war we >linked up the 3 orbits (NW Saudi, Central Saudi, Gulf Saudi). There is >only one >Vocoder on E-3's (back then, don't know about now) so we shared it. But >it was >commonly used as the Intel net where the RC-135 guys could coordinate with >their cohorts on the E-3, and corelate emitters the another RC-135 on station. > >Only now are they looking at protocols that could allow something more than >radar scope symbolgy (tracks, circles, points, etc). > >I don't think the troops in the field have seen HF SS, and it is mostly >used at >command or research levels still. The military is not at a much higher >technology >level than Amateurs. The problem with Amateurs is, they dink around with >too many modes. Slow Scan, AM, FM, FSK, etc, etc. It's just a mess for a >FH system to hop around in :-) I think some of the early Ham tests with Slow >Hoppers turned out to be unusable. > >Steve ----- Greg Jones, WD5IVD Austin, Texas wd5ivd@tapr.org http://www.tapr.org/~wd5ivd ----- From ea4axu@ea4rct.ampr.org Sat Jan 04 08:41:01 1997 Received: from dir.etsit.upm.es (root@dir.etsit.upm.es [138.100.17.10]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA16835 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 08:40:58 -0600 (CST) Received: from radio.clubs.etsit.upm.es (radio.clubs.etsit.upm.es [138.100.31.4]) by dir.etsit.upm.es (8.7.5/4.8) with ESMTP id PAA21996 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 15:36:40 +0100 (MET) Received: from nos.ea4rct.ampr.org (ea4rct.clubs.etsit.upm.es [138.100.31.100]) by radio.clubs.etsit.upm.es (8.7.6/8.7.6) with SMTP id OAA07797 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 14:31:16 GMT Received: from ea4axu.ampr.org by nos.ea4rct.ampr.org (JNOS1.11x5) with SMTP id AA122502 ; Sat, 04 Jan 97 14:25:47 GMT Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970104153321.007b4ab0@ec4dfp.ampr.org> X-Sender: ea4axu@ec4dfp.ampr.org X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 15:33:53 +0100 To: ss@tapr.org From: Eduardo =?iso-8859-1?Q?Mart=EDnez?= Subject: SS on UHF Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable =A1Hola chicos! Since the 900 MHz band is not usable here in EA, and the 2'4 GHz band seems to be too complicated to stablish visual links in Madrid, do you know if is there any "plug 'n play" or easy at least equipment/project to work on= UHF??. And another question, this may be more "comercial". Can you point me to the *cheapest* way of linking a 10 Km visual line at + 64Kbps ? That's all for now. Meanwhile I'll be learning as much as I can about SS :-) SaludoX de Eduardo Eduardo Mart=A1nez 2:341/34.3 [Fido] W.W.-TaXiFoBIa-NeT-H.Q. emartine@tsai.es [Inet] ec4dfp.ampr.org [44.133.28.122] ea4axu@ea4rct.ampr.org [Inet/HAM] ea4axu.ampr.org [44.133.28.133] From dcole@on-ramp.ior.com Sat Jan 04 13:19:08 1997 Received: from on-ramp.ior.com (on-ramp.ior.com [199.79.239.11]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA00878 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 13:19:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from pm2-17.ior.com(really [204.212.119.17]) by on-ramp.ior.com via sendmail with smtp id for ; Sat, 4 Jan 97 11:19:04 -0800 (PST) (/\##/\ Smail3.1.30.16 #30.4 built 17-mar-96) Message-Id: <1.5.4.16.19970104191841.0b9739c2@on-ramp.ior.com> X-Sender: dcole@on-ramp.ior.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 11:18:41 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: doug cole Subject: Re: [SS:796] Re: general question At 01:08 AM 1/4/97 -0600, you wrote: >I think you should make your remark over on the HF SIG. I think you will >get a much more detailed response since there are several on that list that >have direct miltary background in the HF area. please let me know where this hf'sig is as I am not familiar with it :( tnx , 73's Doug Cole dcole@on-ramp.ior.com Amateur radio call- N7BFS Amsat member # 26182 From jerryn@ici.net Sat Jan 04 17:24:51 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA13034 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 17:24:49 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-86.ici.net [207.180.10.95]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.2/8.8.2) with SMTP id SAA28442 for ; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:20:49 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32CEE435.676B21E5@ici.net> Date: Sat, 04 Jan 1997 18:13:57 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:789] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <2.2.32.19970103161104.0030819c@plano.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Stricklin wrote: > > I too am using Win NT40 Server. Microsoft's implementation of TCPIP is not > complete and does not include SLIP connections. > > You may want to set up a second UNIX based computer and network this > computer with NT40. Then you can work with a more robust implementation of > TCPIP. This will give you another complete set of problems as you can see > from questions that have been ask and problems people or having getting this > set up. It will work though. You may use Linux or if it is non commercial go > get the $20 copy (CD) of SCO (See: www.sco.com). > > You may also be able to get it to work with NT40 and a ISDN modem. I have > not looked into this myself but it may be worth pursuing. If you are a C++ > programmer Microsoft offers enough info on there development CDs to modify > the port drivers. This will be a lot of effort also unless you already are > working with the development systems. > > At 01:07 AM 1/3/97 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm hoping you can help me... > >I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 > >to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. > >On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free > >Wave network. > >Question: Do you think this is possible? > >I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to > >have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the > >connection, to and from the ethernet network. > > > >If you can't help, do you know anyone doing this? or someone > >else who can help? I'm new to the list, do you think this > >would be an appropriate post to the group? Is another list > >discussing this? > > > >Thank you for your time. > >All help will be greatly appreciated! > >-Dave > > > >At 04:48 PM 1/2/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Jeff-- > > > >any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. > >The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally > >a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver > >and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're > >interested. > > > >best regards/bob K6KGS > > > > > > > > > > Bob Stricklin, N5BRG > bstrick@dallas.net AKA: bstrick@plano.net bstrick@tenet.edu > Dallas, Texas Jerry Replies, You are better off running Linux! I run wireless router code from M.I.T. AND IT'S FREE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Linux Rules! Microsoft Drooles! From strohs@halcyon.com Sat Jan 04 18:37:07 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id SAA17409; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 18:37:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from coho.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA10962; Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:36:28 -0800 Date: Sat, 4 Jan 1997 16:36:57 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: TAPR Spread Spectrum SIG Mailing List , TAPR SS STA Mailing List Subject: FreeWave and NT (was Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint?) In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, Glenn S. Tenney KOTJ wrote: > At 8:53 AM -0700 1/3/97, Steve Stroh wrote: > >I don't understand your reluctance to use dial-up networking. Since the > >FreeWave's are PPP-only devices, that's really your only choice. > > Say what? The FreeWaves look like a null modem cable so you can run > anything you want with them. I've used PPP and SLIP as well as vt100 to > vt100... Duh... Glen is right, of course. The only defense I can muster was that I was probably thinking of the Metricom Ricochet modems, and THOSE are PPP devices. Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From jerryn@ici.net Mon Jan 06 10:37:13 1997 Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA26677 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 10:37:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix (localhost) by nelix.ici.net (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA01796; Mon, 6 Jan 97 11:32:57 EST Sender: develop@ici.net Message-Id: <32D12937.794BDF32@ici.net> Date: Mon, 06 Jan 1997 11:32:55 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:789] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <2.2.32.19970103161104.0030819c@plano.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Bob Stricklin wrote: > > I too am using Win NT40 Server. Microsoft's implementation of TCPIP is not > complete and does not include SLIP connections. > > You may want to set up a second UNIX based computer and network this > computer with NT40. Then you can work with a more robust implementation of > TCPIP. This will give you another complete set of problems as you can see > from questions that have been ask and problems people or having getting this > set up. It will work though. You may use Linux or if it is non commercial go > get the $20 copy (CD) of SCO (See: www.sco.com). > > You may also be able to get it to work with NT40 and a ISDN modem. I have > not looked into this myself but it may be worth pursuing. If you are a C++ > programmer Microsoft offers enough info on there development CDs to modify > the port drivers. This will be a lot of effort also unless you already are > working with the development systems. > > At 01:07 AM 1/3/97 -0600, you wrote: > >I'm hoping you can help me... > >I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 > >to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. > >On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free > >Wave network. > >Question: Do you think this is possible? > >I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to > >have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the > >connection, to and from the ethernet network. > > > >If you can't help, do you know anyone doing this? or someone > >else who can help? I'm new to the list, do you think this > >would be an appropriate post to the group? Is another list > >discussing this? > > > >Thank you for your time. > >All help will be greatly appreciated! > >-Dave > > > >At 04:48 PM 1/2/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Jeff-- > > > >any of the drivers for UNIX (FreeBSD, Linux) boxes will work fine. > >The WaveLAN card looks like an Ethernet device, so it's naturally > >a multipoint device. I suppose you also could use a packet driver > >and NOS, if that better suits your fancy. I have drivers, if you're > >interested. > > > >best regards/bob K6KGS > > > > > > > > > > Bob Stricklin, N5BRG > bstrick@dallas.net AKA: bstrick@plano.net bstrick@tenet.edu > Dallas, Texas When are you people going to learn? Microsoft Operating Systems are lame. Products like Linux and FreeBSD give the power back to us sexperimeters! Linux especially has many wireless router drivers available. MobileIP is availbable from M.I.T. and is called linux Linux-MobileIP. I'd post it here but last time I attached code I got chewed out by the moderator. So people point your browser to your favorite search engine and search for Linux-MobileIP. Linux Rules! Microsoft Drooles! -- Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From marius@krepro.no Mon Jan 06 14:10:44 1997 Received: from mail1.sn.no (0@mail1.sn.no [194.143.8.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA10025 for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 14:10:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from barum3-6.ppp.sn.no (barum3-6.ppp.sn.no [194.143.60.103]) by mail1.sn.no (8.7.5/8.7.3/on4) with SMTP id for ; Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:10:29 +0100 (MET) Date: Mon, 6 Jan 1997 21:10:29 +0100 (MET) Message-Id: <199701062010.VAA01424@mail1.sn.no> X-Sender: marius@pop.sn.no X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: marius@krepro.no (Marius Hauki) Subject: Re: [SS:788] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? > >On Fri, 3 Jan 1997, David A. Wright wrote: > >> I'm hoping you can help me... >> I have two Free Wave radios, and would like to use NT Server 4.0 >> to route from an ethernet network, to the Free Wave network. >> On the other end I'm trying to set up Windows 95 to the Free >> Wave network. >> Question: Do you think this is possible? >> I don't want to use dial up networking, I'd like the client to >> have a full time connection for IP traffic to initiate the >> connection, to and from the ethernet network. > >I don't understand your reluctance to use dial-up networking. Since the >FreeWave's are PPP-only devices, that's really your only choice. NT (I've >no experience yet with 4.0) understands modems, but I don't think >understands SLIP/PPP direct connections. Using dial-up networking should >achieve what you want- the connection should establish dynamically based >on the presence of data. For instance, if on the W95 client you start up >a Web browser with a remote home page, that should trigger the dial up >networking to automatically initiate the dial-up connection. > >This is probably better discussed on the ss-sta list, since it deals >specifically with issues involved in the STA, including use of the >FreeWave units. > >-- >Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com > It is fully possible to use NT4.0 with Point To Point Tunneling Protocol (PPP) and also SLIP. You must make a pre / postconnect script and supply the system either automatically or manually with the IP address. This depends on if the system you are connecting to uses dynamic or static IP allocation. I use NT4.0 to connect to my internet service provider via PPP.. No problem. I then assume you could make it work with your Free Wave radios. Best regards Marius Hauki LA9EEA marius@krepro.no > > Marius Hauki Product Manager CAD/CAM systems Krepro AS Krepro's main office : ======================= Krepro AS, PO. box 233 Boensdalsvegen 32 N-2070 Raaholt Norway Tel. : ++47 63 95 20 00 Fax. : ++47 63 95 20 50 E-mail : office@krepro.no WEB page : in planning phase My office at Hoevik : ====================== Tel : ++47 67 12 59 15 Fax: ++47 67 12 59 96 Modem (HST) : ++47 67 12 59 96 E-mail : marius@krepro.no Note : ======================= USE MAIN OFFICE FAX AND TELEPHONE UNLESS OTHERVISE SPECIFIED FOR E-MAIL -- RETURN TO THE SAME E-MAIL ADRESS THE MESSAGE IS SENT FROM ALWAYS INCLUDE OUR REFERENCES IN HEADER OR IN BODY OF MESSAGE FOR IDENTIFICATION PURPOSES-- MAIN OFFICE E-MAIL ADRESS IS NOW IN SERVICE: office@krepro.no -- ALL TECHNICAL ISSUES AND TECHNICAL SUPPORT SHALL BE SENT TO marius@krepro.no -- ALL CORRESPONANCE ADRESSED TO MARIUS HAUKI SHALL BE SENT TO : marius@krepro.no From gwyn@paccomm.com Tue Jan 07 07:30:29 1997 Received: from paccomm.com (paccomm.com [163.125.30.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id HAA18480 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 07:30:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from gwyn by paccomm.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0vhbbi-000FQLC; Tue, 7 Jan 97 08:30 EST Received: by gwyn with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFC74.E3CBA2C0@gwyn>; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:29:25 -0500 Message-ID: <01BBFC74.E3CBA2C0@gwyn> From: Gwyn Reedy To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 794] Re: general question Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 08:29:23 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="---- =_NextPart_000_01BBFC74.E3ED3480" ------ =_NextPart_000_01BBFC74.E3ED3480 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about the tens of thousands of Singcars radios the Army has bought? = SS from 30 MHz to 80 MNz or something like that. Not quite HF, but = significant numbers of them. Gwyn ---------- From: Steve Sampson[SMTP:ssampson@oklahoma.net] Sent: Friday, January 03, 1997 11:10 AM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:794] Re: general question > I think the eventual goal is to get SS rules adopted on HF as well as = 50Mhz > and above. Just one battle at a time please. >=20 > Cheers - Greg People often say that the military uses SS on HF. I was mostly in = Tactical, and Air Combat Commands, but if it's any consolation, the front line = does not use SS on HF. Mostly they rely on Tadil-A on HF (Data link, one master, = many slaves exchanging track symbology) with the Navy. Where SS has been = blown out is in UHF and above. Most airborne units use the L-Band Hybrid SS = JTIDS, and/or the Have Quick FHSS UHF radios. Just an aside, the E-3 uses only an L-Band Horn in the nose and tail to = transmit JTIDS data. During most wars we linked up all E-3's this way. In the = Iraq war we linked up the 3 orbits (NW Saudi, Central Saudi, Gulf Saudi). There is = only one Vocoder on E-3's (back then, don't know about now) so we shared it. But = it was commonly used as the Intel net where the RC-135 guys could coordinate = with their cohorts on the E-3, and corelate emitters the another RC-135 on = station. Only now are they looking at protocols that could allow something more = than radar scope symbolgy (tracks, circles, points, etc). I don't think the troops in the field have seen HF SS, and it is mostly = used at command or research levels still. The military is not at a much higher = technology level than Amateurs. The problem with Amateurs is, they dink around = with too many modes. Slow Scan, AM, FM, FSK, etc, etc. It's just a mess for = a FH system to hop around in :-) I think some of the early Ham tests with = Slow Hoppers turned out to be unusable. 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The article is supposed to be about the network used to control an optical telescope in New Mexico, but since most of it is done via amateur packet radio, I think that many of the readers of this list will find it interesting. Besides a 440MHz link, the system uses a Wavlan Spread Spectrum system for high speed communication. While I enjoyed the article, I am surprised it was published since it has virtually no relevance outside of the HR environment. I am not complaining, just surprised. --------------- Richard Parry, P.E., W9IF - Ext 8-4972, Office R-307B Qualcomm, Inc. Globalstar/Gateway Reverse Link Intranet --> Internet --> AX.25 --> W9IF@K6JCC.#SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM --------------- From ssampson@claven.tinker.af.mil Tue Jan 07 13:34:10 1997 Received: from othello.tinker.af.mil (othello.tinker.af.mil [137.240.231.43]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA11748 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:33:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost by othello.tinker.af.mil (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA11362; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:20:31 -0600 Sender: ssampson@othello.tinker.af.mil Message-Id: <32D2A1FE.41C6@eds.tinker.af.mil> Date: Tue, 07 Jan 1997 13:20:30 -0600 From: Steve Sampson Organization: TRW Space & Electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; I; AIX 1) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:803] RE: 794] Re: general question References: <01BBFC74.E3CBA2C0@gwyn> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gwyn Reedy wrote: > > What about the tens of thousands of Singcars radios the Army has bought? > SS from 30 MHz to 80 MNz or something like that. Not quite HF, but > significant numbers of them. Another good band. Much better than HF. I think the Army does Singcars like the USAF does Have-Quick. Steve From jbloom@arrl.org Tue Jan 07 13:37:37 1997 Received: from mgate.arrl.org (root@mgate.arrl.org [205.217.201.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA12009 for ; Tue, 7 Jan 1997 13:37:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from smtp_gw by mgate.arrl.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #9) id m0vhhL0-0004oRC; Tue, 7 Jan 97 14:37 EST Message-Id: Priority: urgent Date: Tue, 7 Jan 1997 14:36:00 -0500 From: "Bloom, Jon, KE3Z" Subject: RE: 804] AX.25 etc. in Linux Journal To: "'ss@tapr.org'" X-Mailer: Worldtalk (NetConnex V4.00a)/MIME Maybe it got published because the publisher of LJ, Phil Hughes, is a ham. :-) Jon > While I enjoyed the article, I am surprised it was published since it > has virtually no relevance outside of the HR environment. I am not > complaining, just surprised. From n3jly@erols.com Sat Jan 11 00:15:34 1997 Received: from mx01.erols.com (mx01.erols.com [205.252.116.65]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA02075 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:15:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as5s38.erols.com [207.172.73.38]) by mx01.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970106.001cmo) with SMTP id BAA31252 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:15:27 -0500 Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 01:15:27 -0500 Message-Id: <199701110615.BAA31252@mx01.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: FreeWave Hello, I've gotten ready to buy the radios (freewave 115). I was visiting the freewave site and saw something I hadn't noticed before, that the units are 115Kb FULL duplex. Not a minor difference. I also noticed the mention of a 115 and a 115H. Whats the difference? Is the 115 400mW and the 115H 1W? Both models were at the top of the same spec sheet, I didn't notice any differeniation. But I saw the post last week about discussions with the vendor. And that the offer is no longer mentioned on the TAPR web site. Is there a problem? Tony McConnell N3JLI n3jly@erols.com From kevin.jessup@mail.mei.com Sat Jan 11 07:45:40 1997 Received: from meipws.mis.mei.com (meipws.mis.mei.com [151.186.40.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA19026 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:45:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from caffeine (caffeine.isdn.mei.com) by meipws.mis.mei.com (PMDF V5.0-5 #5043) id <01IE2UR3O7BK8XYPH3@meipws.mis.mei.com> for ss@tapr.org; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:39:34 -0600 (CST) Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 07:43:45 -0600 From: Kevin Jessup Subject: Re: [SS:807] FreeWave X-Sender: jessupkp@meipws.mis.mei.com To: ss@tapr.org Message-id: <01IE2UR3RF2A8XYPH3@meipws.mis.mei.com> MIME-version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 2.1 Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT At 12:21 AM 1/11/97 -0600, Tony McConnell wrote: >And that the offer is no longer mentioned on the TAPR web site. Is there >a problem? I noticed this too. I recall an earlier TAPR web page stating their new FreeWave page would be up soon. (I believe they mentioned January 7th.) But now I see no mention of the FreeWave deal anywhere. Kevin, n9sqb From jrc@brainiac.mn.org Sat Jan 11 09:01:52 1997 Received: from brainiac.mn.org (jrc.skypoint.net [199.86.32.189]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA22272 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:01:49 -0600 (CST) Received: by brainiac.mn.org (4.1/SMI-4.1/J1.1) id AA15644; Sat, 11 Jan 97 09:02:01 CST From: jrc@brainiac.mn.org (Jeffrey Comstock) Message-Id: <9701111502.AA15644@brainiac.mn.org> Subject: Re: [SS:808] Re: FreeWave To: ss@tapr.org Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:02:00 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <01IE2UR3RF2A8XYPH3@meipws.mis.mei.com> from "Kevin Jessup" at Jan 11, 97 07:50:13 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > At 12:21 AM 1/11/97 -0600, > Tony McConnell wrote: > > >And that the offer is no longer mentioned on the TAPR web site. Is there > >a problem? > > I noticed this too. I recall an earlier TAPR web page > stating their new FreeWave page would be up soon. (I > believe they mentioned January 7th.) But now I see no > mention of the FreeWave deal anywhere. I called the TAPR office yesterday (01/10) about the FreeWave radios, and the deal is still on. Dorothy said the order will be made toward the end of the month. She also stated the WWW page would be up soon, and told me to check there for more info. -- Jeffrey Comstock INET: jrc@brainiac.mn.org WEB: http://www.skypoint.net/members/jrc/ CW: -. .-. ----- -.. From ka8pog@bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org Sat Jan 11 09:58:36 1997 Received: from home.merit.edu (home.merit.edu [198.108.60.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA25014 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 09:58:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org (ka8pog.ampr.org [44.102.1.42]) by home.merit.edu (8.8.4/merit-2.0) with SMTP id KAA00556 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:58:06 -0500 (EST) Received: from pog133.ka8pog.ampr.org by bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org (JNOS23skiddooHIKE1.11x4) with SMTP id AA5955 ; Sat, 11 Jan 97 11:09:07 EST Received: by pog133.ka8pog.ampr.org with Microsoft Mail id <01BBFFAE.37FF6F20@pog133.ka8pog.ampr.org>; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:57:21 -0500 Message-ID: <01BBFFAE.37FF6F20@pog133.ka8pog.ampr.org> From: Phillip Wymer Via Packet To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 809] Re: FreeWave Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 10:57:12 -0500 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I also Talked to Dorthy on the 10th of January and was told the same thing. but am not sure of the model that will be shipped to us im hoping it is the 1 watt version. Does anyone know exactly what version they are going to ship? From dewayne@warpspeed.com Sat Jan 11 13:59:06 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (WA8DZP@odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA07569 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 13:59:03 -0600 (CST) Received: from [192.160.122.32] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:58:59 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <01BBFFAE.37FF6F20@pog133.ka8pog.ampr.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 11:34:03 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:810] RE: 809] Re: FreeWave At 10:00 AM -0600 1/11/97, Phillip Wymer Via Packet wrote: >I also Talked to Dorthy on the 10th of January and was told the same thing. >but am not sure of the model that will be shipped to us im hoping it is >the 1 watt >version. Does anyone know exactly what version they are going to ship? Be assured. It will be the 1 watt model. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From jandrews@i-2000.com Sat Jan 11 21:45:42 1997 Received: from i-2000.com (root@i-2000.com [204.97.92.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA01725 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 21:45:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from selden30.access1.dh.i-2000.net (selden30.access1.dh.i-2000.net [205.247.13.62]) by i-2000.com (8.8.4/8.7) with SMTP id WAA08264 for ; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:45:36 -0500 (EST) Received: by selden30.access1.dh.i-2000.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0010.BD87C680@selden30.access1.dh.i-2000.net>; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:42:35 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC0010.BD87C680@selden30.access1.dh.i-2000.net> From: Jon Andrews To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 811] RE: 809] Re: FreeWave Date: Sat, 11 Jan 1997 22:11:55 -0500 Return-Receipt-To: Encoding: 44 TEXT, 52 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 Hello All! I have just been on this SIG for about a week. I read back in the archives and looked for more info on the FreeWave. I found only bits & pieces in the mail archives and nothing on the web site. Are these "radio MODEMS" operating spread spectrum on the 900MHz band? It sounds real interesting, I have been looking for such a item (reasonably) priced for some time. Could someone steer me to a web site or sometime where I could find more information? Thanks 73 de Jon - WA2YVL NNNN ---------- From: Dewayne Hendricks[SMTP:dewayne@warpspeed.com] Sent: Saturday, January 11, 1997 9:06 AM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:811] RE: 809] Re: FreeWave At 10:00 AM -0600 1/11/97, Phillip Wymer Via Packet wrote: >I also Talked to Dorthy on the 10th of January and was told the same thing. >but am not sure of the model that will be shipped to us im hoping it is >the 1 watt >version. Does anyone know exactly what version they are going to ship? Be assured. It will be the 1 watt model. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(B0#`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$-@ 0` M`@````(``@`!!) &`/0````!````# ````,``# #````"P`/#@`````"`?\/ M`0```#4`````````@2L?I+ZC$!F=;@#=`0]4`@````!S`' ` M`0```!\```!213H@.#$Q72!213H@.# Y72!293H@1G)E95=A=F4```(!<0`! M````%@````&\`#9=@)G-1RMK[A'0OIL`(*_2"+D``!X`'@P!`````P```$U3 M```>`!\,`0```!(```!7:6YD;W=S+TIO;F(O2F]N00````,`!A ')GD9`P`' M$.H#```>``@0`0```&4```!(14Q,3T%,3$E(059%2E535$)%14Y/3E1(25-3 M24=&3U)!0D]55$%7145+25)%041"04-+24Y42$5!4D-(259%4T%.1$Q/3TM% M1$9/4DU/4D5)3D9/3TY42$5&4D5%5T%614E&``````(!"1 !````"04```4% M``#3" ``3%I&==*'8!#_``H!#P(5`J@%ZP*#`% "\@D"`&-H"L!S970R-P8` M!L,"@S(#Q0(`<')"<1'B? M,C4U`H '"H$-L0M@;F$@`B @=,9H! `&`$E'( (0!!KS"X@'?$7H&%D'K `T'QK( N 'S$>4 K $7!IGQY !" `<"%0%S!O:PF M?Q_#!& 7H"&Q`A ?!!Y01MT)T5<>,2#3`A!U(M$"("1L>1ZP:70$("8@^G ( MD&,'D2'%`, #$2([/&YO'T$:H"1&()!B(/\`D!/0(-$=+ <0'E A\1&P*" B M@$\!]*/$L'?8>PR,"*/(?TG/> M=1%P(&$I\2Y *"$A+^#V;@&@)A I)J %$";@(U2_+^ '@!\P!W$@T0A1;"VQ M_S5!`B >4!/!!) CH"M1',#_('(IQ!\`-10U@B" (@`CT7<>``6@-A)F"X A M4".W- WP#-! HPM9,38*H/\#8!/0+@`]\$+'"H=! M>PPP=T)&), #<#I#SD)&#((@\D0'T&%Y-J$<@"+0-)&!/&!;4TU44#H-L&5' MHT!'H')P+=$)@"[Y!:!M74-O1'T&8 (P1:]K1KL&$'0(<&1'L#%02DT`<'4* MP"8@,3$Q4#&(.3DW+L Z,#84L.9-2E]$?51O3)]&NP00UD !D!-0+@6P9U"? M2VYX=6)J+?%2OT:[2)!3U#HX3Y!=!_!%5[! ,'HY6@%E5[ DQATL/Z8S[C9! M1QO50D9!!4 :P% PGC!083WP4$!>T3$O3Y#V+T_P,5!0'U 0!&@.P$@T6.@-2*3>3:2:RBP!^!E>/T`T'0F$3D`:;%MU2'B M96'Y(]%G;RCR-V%J8CL]1S/^0B(1!!!H@4GP+Y-IYFRX?VDD9S8*A4+ 1W9V M#@J%?O]X_WH/>Q]\+WR#"H5'CS%0@3X@.$1:4" A%+ $3TQ7L$A%3D12\$E# M2U,*A24`29 &`/=)PAWP`,!G"X V\2CR(.#]?Z!),+(VH%>A2/]*`@J%_#0S M/6!>X&$`$\ @<'X`WP^Q"L&&9'^@8452*_)7L %_-4 @2S--0RZ (TY/0T%, M+HC@^"Y54XDPB,!0=R3!!& /`C Q4(C@+L T-3,YU"TS`= TAI17C !7L 0\ M: ) <#HO+W; Sat, 11 Jan 1997 23:18:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as3s18.erols.com [207.172.69.146]) by mx03.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id AAA10373 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:18:51 -0500 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 00:18:51 -0500 Message-Id: <199701120518.AAA10373@mx03.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:812] RE: 811] RE: 809] Re: FreeWave I read back in the archives >and looked for more info on the FreeWave. Could someone steer me to a web site or sometime >where I could find more information? you could try the freewave web site www.freewave.com From WANG@rad.hfh.edu Sun Jan 12 14:05:08 1997 Received: from mulberry.rad.hfh.edu (mulberry.rad.hfh.edu [150.198.12.129]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id OAA19687 for ; Sun, 12 Jan 1997 14:05:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from hfhradpo.rad.hfh.edu by mulberry.rad.hfh.edu (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA04328; Sun, 12 Jan 97 14:59:16 EST Received: by hfhradpo.rad.hfh.edu with Microsoft Mail id <32D96D45@hfhradpo.rad.hfh.edu>; Sun, 12 Jan 97 15:01:25 PST From: David Wang MD To: "'ss'" Subject: Read: 813] SS digest 210 Date: Sun, 12 Jan 97 15:05:00 PST Message-Id: <32D96D45@hfhradpo.rad.hfh.edu> Encoding: 1 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From karn@laptop.ka9q.ampr.org Mon Jan 13 07:25:40 1997 Received: from laptop.ka9q.ampr.org ([199.106.96.180]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA06419 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:25:36 -0600 (CST) Received: by laptop.ka9q.ampr.org id m0vjZec-000MDxC (Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:49:30 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Sun, 12 Jan 1997 15:49:30 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org Reply-To: karn@qualcomm.com In-reply-to: <199701110615.BAA31252@mx01.erols.com> (message from Tony McConnell on Sat, 11 Jan 1997 00:21:53 -0600 (CST)) Subject: Re: [SS:807] FreeWave > I was visiting the freewave site and saw something I hadn't >noticed before, that the units are 115Kb FULL duplex. Not a minor I seriously doubt the radios themselves are full duplex, though the user interfaces to them may well be. With fast TR switching, a half duplex radio can look like a full duplex radio of roughly half the speed. Phil From lfry@wdl.lmco.com Mon Jan 13 07:48:44 1997 Received: from wdl1.wdl.lmco.com (wdl1.wdl.lmco.com [137.249.32.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id HAA07329 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:48:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from wdl.marble.litc.lockheed.com by wdl1.wdl.lmco.com (SMI-8.6/WDL-5.0) id FAA10227; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 05:48:34 -0800 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970113135057.006a3d84@wdl1.wdl.lmco.com> X-Sender: lfry@wdl1.wdl.lmco.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:50:57 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Lee W. Fry" Subject: Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure By Report and Order FCC 97-005 January 9, 1997 the FCC has created a home for the NII. See http://www.fcc.gov/oet/headline/et96-102/ for details. Quoting some selected paragraphs from 97-005: "By this action, we amend Part 15 of our rules to make available 300 megahertz of spectrum at 5.15-5.35 GHz and 5.725-5.825 GHz for use by a new category of unlicensed equipment, called Unlicensed National Information Infrastructure ("U-NII") devices." "The Commission has determined that the public interest is best serviced by increasing the maximum peak power limit as follows: 50 mW peak transmitter output power with up to 6 dBi antenna gain (equates to 200 mW EIRP) permitted in the 5.15-5.25 GHz band; 250 mW peak transmitter output power with up to 6 dBi antenna gain (equates to 1 W EIRP) permitted in the 5.25-5.35 GHz band; and 1 W peak transmitter output power with up to 6 dBi antenna gain (equates to 4 W EIRP) permitted in the 5.725-5.825 GHz band. In addition, to permit manufacturers flexibility in designing U-NII equipment, the Commission will permit the use of higher directional antenna gain provided there is a corresponding reduction in transmitter output power of one dB for every dB that the directional antenna gain exceeds 6 dBi. Also, U-NII use of the 5.15-5.25 GHz band is restricted to indoor operations only. Further, this action adopts a power spectral density ("PSD") requirement for U-NII devices that would require that the maximum power be spread across of bandwidth of at least 20 megahertz. This PSD requirement will ensure that U-NII devices spread its signal energy evenly across the band and encourages the use of this spectrum by wideband high data rate applications, but permits non-wideband operations at reduced powers. These increased power limits will permit U-NII equipment manufacturers, many of which may be small businesses, more flexibility to develop products to meet market demands." "The Commission has now concluded that the proposed LBT spectrum etiquette could delay deployment of U-NII devices and hinder innovation in the development of these devices. Rather, the Commission has concluded that simple technical rules, such as PSD limits and out-of-band emission requirements, should be sufficient to ensure spectrum sharing between incumbent operations and new U-NII devices. The Commission declined to adopt a spectrum etiquette, any channelization plan, or a minimum modulation efficiency requirement because such requirements may preclude certain technologies or some of the many different concepts envisioned by U-NII proponents. We believe this action will benefit small entities by permitting these entities to develop innovative equipment to meet market demands without having to follow protocols governing use of the spectrum. " Lee W. Fry lfry@wdl.lmco.com From rero@cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com Mon Jan 13 07:53:57 1997 Received: from ihgw1.lucent.com (ihgw1.lucent.com [207.19.48.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id HAA07504 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 07:53:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from cbemg.cb.lucent.com by ihig1.firewall.lucent.com (SMI-8.6/EMS-L sol2) id IAA17116; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:02:11 -0600 Received: from cbemg.UUCP by cbemg.cb.lucent.com (4.1/EMS-L gis) id AA29631; Mon, 13 Jan 97 08:53:46 EST Date: 13 Jan 97 08:50:00 -0500 To: "ss" Received: from cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com by cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 08:53 EST Received: by cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com with Microsoft Mail id <32DA3E63@cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com>; Mon Jan 13 08:53 EST 1997 From: "Rochford, Richard E." Original-To: "ss" Subject: Read: [SS:812] RE: 811] RE: 809] Re: FreeWave Original-Date: Mon Jan 13 08:50 EST 1997 Message-Id: <32DA3E63@cbmsmail.cb.lucent.com> Encoding: 0 TEXT X-Mailer: Microsoft Mail V3.0 From n3jly@erols.com Mon Jan 13 09:25:06 1997 Received: from mx02.erols.com (mx02.erols.com [205.252.116.70]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA13364 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 09:25:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as13s13.erols.com [207.172.75.13]) by mx02.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970106.001cmo) with SMTP id KAA11806 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:57 -0500 Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:24:57 -0500 Message-Id: <199701131524.KAA11806@mx02.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:815] Re: FreeWave At 07:27 AM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >> I was visiting the freewave site and saw something I hadn't >>noticed before, that the units are 115Kb FULL duplex. Not a minor > >I seriously doubt the radios themselves are full duplex, though the >user interfaces to them may well be. With fast TR switching, a half >duplex radio can look like a full duplex radio of roughly half the >speed. > >Phil > > > I do understand your reservations about that. They could make the spec sheet clearer if not. From n7oo@goodnet.com Mon Jan 13 12:13:45 1997 Received: from goodguy.goodnet.com (root@goodnet.com [207.98.129.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA23870 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:13:43 -0600 (CST) Received: from goodguy (n7oo@mail [207.98.129.2]) by goodguy.goodnet.com (8.8.4/8.8.2) with SMTP id LAA02817 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:12:34 -0700 (MST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 11:12:30 -0700 (MST) From: Jack Taylor X-Sender: n7oo@goodguy To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:815] Re: FreeWave In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII In looking at the FreeWave web site, it appears the RS-232 OEM module coupled with the bipolar 5 watt amplifier would have equal application for amateur use as well. This combination would have the advantage of providing a remote site configuration. The specs on the bipolar amp include receiver front-end filtering against out-of-band cellular and paging services as well as yielding a 1.5 dB noise figure. The bipolar amp can be tower mounted at the antenna, thus reducing the need for low loss transmission line. Their RS-232 OEM module has nearly the same specs as does the transciever, with the exception of 400 Mw output power, which considering transmission line losses, should be capable of driving the remote bipolar amp. 73 de Jack From mciminer@jazz.jpl.nasa.gov Mon Jan 13 12:23:33 1997 Received: from eis-net-001.jpl.nasa.gov (eis-net-001.jpl.nasa.gov [137.78.57.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA24337 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 12:23:30 -0600 (CST) Received: from jazz.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (jazz.jpl.nasa.gov [128.149.63.58]) by eis-net-001.jpl.nasa.gov (8.7.5/8.7.3) with SMTP id KAA26965 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 10:23:26 -0800 (PST) Received: by jazz.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (4.1/SMI-4.1+DXRs2.3) id AA01182; Mon, 13 Jan 97 10:21:57 PST Date: Mon, 13 Jan 97 10:21:57 PST From: mciminer@jazz.jpl.nasa.gov (Michael Ciminera) Message-Id: <9701131821.AA01182@jazz.Jpl.Nasa.Gov> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:818] Re: FreeWave Cc: mciminer@jazz.jpl.nasa.gov Hi there, What is the cost to buy ONE of the 115kbps freewave RF modems purchased by TAPR? What is the cost to buy TEN? What is the deadline for purchase? Who do I send the money to? Who do i email or talk to? help! mike ciminera wc6a From ljs@west.net Mon Jan 13 22:37:12 1997 Received: from acme.sb.west.net (root@acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA25102 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:37:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from term2-17.sb.west.net (term2-17.sb.west.net [205.254.225.49]) by acme.sb.west.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA16154 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:33:47 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 20:33:47 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701140433.UAA16154@acme.sb.west.net> X-Sender: ljs@west.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: "L. J. Shepherd" Subject: Re: [SS:819] Re: FreeWave Jack: I concur with your comments........I had noticed the same two additional products which could be of great practical interest, most expecially for those of us who live in city areas with substantial 900 mHz rf densities. With longer link distances unless some type of very low loss transmission line is selected, the losses will be significant, and the application of the bibolar amplifier product seems like a worthwhile addition. I don't recall the drive characteristics of the transmit amplifier.......it may be that the 1w units will be needed in installations with long transmission line requirements. In any event, thanks for your posting. 73, L. J. Shepherd K6OYY TAPR 502 At 12:16 PM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >In looking at the FreeWave web site, it appears the RS-232 OEM module >coupled with the bipolar 5 watt amplifier would have equal application for >amateur use as well. This combination would have the advantage of >providing a remote site configuration. The specs on the bipolar amp >include receiver front-end filtering against out-of-band cellular and >paging services as well as yielding a 1.5 dB noise figure. > >The bipolar amp can be tower mounted at the antenna, thus reducing the >need for low loss transmission line. Their RS-232 OEM module has nearly >the same specs as does the transciever, with the exception of 400 Mw >output power, which considering transmission line losses, should be >capable of driving the remote bipolar amp. > >73 de Jack > > > > From zsolt@direct.ca Mon Jan 13 23:31:41 1997 Received: from aphex.direct.ca (root@aphex.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA27913 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 23:31:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from boxer.direct.ca (van-52-0533.direct.ca [204.174.240.225]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id VAA25878 for ; Mon, 13 Jan 1997 21:31:15 -0800 (PST) Date: Mon, 13 Jan 1997 22:33:59 -0800 (PST) From: George Cserenyi Reply-To: George Cserenyi To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:821] Re: FreeWave In-Reply-To: <199701140433.UAA16154@acme.sb.west.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, While reading this thread for a while with interest I was wondering, what would be the best way to extend the range, beyond the limitations of the point to point method of communication. A repeater of some sort perhaps? 73 de George On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, L. J. Shepherd wrote: > Jack: I concur with your comments........I had noticed the same two > additional products which could be of great practical interest, most > expecially for those of us who live in city areas with substantial 900 mHz > rf densities. With longer link distances unless some type of very low loss > transmission line is selected, the losses will be significant, and the > application of the bibolar amplifier product seems like a worthwhile > addition. I don't recall the drive characteristics of the transmit > amplifier.......it may be that the 1w units will be needed in installations > with long transmission line requirements. In any event, thanks for your > posting. 73, L. J. Shepherd K6OYY TAPR 502 > > > > At 12:16 PM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: > >In looking at the FreeWave web site, it appears the RS-232 OEM module > >coupled with the bipolar 5 watt amplifier would have equal application for > >amateur use as well. This combination would have the advantage of > >providing a remote site configuration. The specs on the bipolar amp > >include receiver front-end filtering against out-of-band cellular and > >paging services as well as yielding a 1.5 dB noise figure. > > > >The bipolar amp can be tower mounted at the antenna, thus reducing the > >need for low loss transmission line. Their RS-232 OEM module has nearly > >the same specs as does the transciever, with the exception of 400 Mw > >output power, which considering transmission line losses, should be > >capable of driving the remote bipolar amp. > > > >73 de Jack > > > > > > > > > > From taylord@ecn.purdue.edu Tue Jan 14 08:23:01 1997 Received: from atom.ecn.purdue.edu (root@atom.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.132.94]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA23861 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:22:59 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.46.169.162] (instru1.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.169.162]) by atom.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.4/3.8.2moyman) with ESMTP id JAA25381; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:22:55 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 09:22:55 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: taylord@128.46.169.94 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: David G Taylor Subject: Wavelan 915 MHz ISA card output Z I'm home-brewing an outdoor antenna ....... Does anyone know what the output impedance is for the Wavelan 915 MHz ISA card ? Also, is the circuitry on the patch antenna a receive pre-amp or just what ? David, KB9KNS --- Dr. David G. Taylor - Director - Instrumentation Purdue University, School of Chemical Engineering, 1283 CHME Blvd. West Lafayette, IN 47907-1283 USA V(317) 494-4085 Fax(317) 494-0805 From glenne@hpsadr2.sr.hp.com Tue Jan 14 10:14:41 1997 Received: from palrel1.hp.com (palrel1.hp.com [15.253.72.10]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA29091 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:13:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from srmail.sr.hp.com (srmail.sr.hp.com [15.4.45.14]) by palrel1.hp.com with ESMTP (8.7.5/8.7.3) id IAA16386 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:13:27 -0800 (PST) Received: from hpsadr2.sr.hp.com (n6gn.sr.hp.com) by srmail.sr.hp.com with ESMTP (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA065738405; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:13:26 -0800 Received: by hpsadr2.sr.hp.com (1.37.109.16/15.5+ECS 3.3) id AA072578405; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:13:25 -0800 From: Glenn Elmore Message-Id: <199701141613.AA072578405@hpsadr2.sr.hp.com> Subject: Re: [SS:822] Re: FreeWave To: ss@tapr.org (George Cserenyi) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:13:25 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: from "George Cserenyi" at Jan 13, 97 11:38:33 pm X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL21] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit George writes: > While reading this thread for a while with interest > I was wondering, what would be the best way to extend > the range, beyond the limitations of the point to point > method of communication. A repeater of some sort perhaps? Well, I'm sure that you'll find other opinions but *my* current pick for range extension is an OCAR (On Channel Active Repeater). See my pages for details. |--------------- N6GN's Higher Speed Packet WWW Page -------------------| | | | http://www.tapr.org/~n6gn/index.html | | | |-----------------------------------------------------------------------| Glenn Elmore n6gn amateur IP: glenn@SantaRosa.ampr.org Internet: glenne@sr.hp.com From buaas@wireless.net Tue Jan 14 10:55:10 1997 Received: from wireless.net (wireless.net [198.253.254.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA01056 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 10:54:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from buaas@localhost) by wireless.net (8.7.6/8.6.12) id IAA03462; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:55:23 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 08:55:23 -0800 (PST) From: "Robert A. Buaas" Message-Id: <199701141655.IAA03462@wireless.net> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:823] Wavelan 915 MHz ISA card output Z Cc: taylord@ecn.purdue.edu David-- The output impedance of the WaveLAN cards is 50-ohms, regardless of which antenna connector you find on the card you have (the early prototype cards have an F-female connector which confused several people). The "logic" on the patch antenna supplied with the cards is a pin-diode switch, selecting between vertical and horizontal polorization. When making your antennas, it's wise to avoid shorting the center conductor on the antenna feedline to the shield, as this loads the selection logic on the card. Good Luck!! best regards/bob K6KGS From ljs@west.net Tue Jan 14 22:45:27 1997 Received: from acme.sb.west.net (root@acme.sb.west.net [205.254.224.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA05169 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 22:45:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from term4-19.sb.west.net (term4-19.sb.west.net [205.254.225.115]) by acme.sb.west.net (8.8.3/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA11404 for ; Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:41:01 -0800 (PST) Date: Tue, 14 Jan 1997 20:41:01 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701150441.UAA11404@acme.sb.west.net> X-Sender: ljs@west.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: "L. J. Shepherd" Subject: Re: [SS:822] Re: FreeWave Hello George: According to the spec sheets, three functional modes are available: point to point, point to multipoint, and store and forward. Seems like the store and forward mode would have direct application in a range extention (repeater) scenario. It would be interesting to know if the Freewave units operating in store and forward mode can handle a multipoint system configuration, such that multiple (different) point to point relays could pass via a common store and forward repeater in a compatible manner. This is really not my area of expertise, but I suspect that the frequency hopping codes would be of principal concern in such a system. Interesting new things to consider with SS ! 73, L. J. Shepherd K6OYY At 11:38 PM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >Hi, >While reading this thread for a while with interest >I was wondering, what would be the best way to extend >the range, beyond the limitations of the point to point >method of communication. A repeater of some sort perhaps? >73 de George > >On Mon, 13 Jan 1997, L. J. Shepherd wrote: > >> Jack: I concur with your comments........I had noticed the same two >> additional products which could be of great practical interest, most >> expecially for those of us who live in city areas with substantial 900 mHz >> rf densities. With longer link distances unless some type of very low loss >> transmission line is selected, the losses will be significant, and the >> application of the bibolar amplifier product seems like a worthwhile >> addition. I don't recall the drive characteristics of the transmit >> amplifier.......it may be that the 1w units will be needed in installations >> with long transmission line requirements. In any event, thanks for your >> posting. 73, L. J. Shepherd K6OYY TAPR 502 >> >> >> >> At 12:16 PM 1/13/97 -0600, you wrote: >> >In looking at the FreeWave web site, it appears the RS-232 OEM module >> >coupled with the bipolar 5 watt amplifier would have equal application for >> >amateur use as well. This combination would have the advantage of >> >providing a remote site configuration. The specs on the bipolar amp >> >include receiver front-end filtering against out-of-band cellular and >> >paging services as well as yielding a 1.5 dB noise figure. >> > >> >The bipolar amp can be tower mounted at the antenna, thus reducing the >> >need for low loss transmission line. Their RS-232 OEM module has nearly >> >the same specs as does the transciever, with the exception of 400 Mw >> >output power, which considering transmission line losses, should be >> >capable of driving the remote bipolar amp. >> > >> >73 de Jack >> > >> > >> > >> > >> >> > > > > From stoskopf@tri.net Wed Jan 15 16:57:04 1997 Received: from home.tri.net (root@home.tri.net [205.153.244.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA17135 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:57:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from mine (h5.tri.net [205.153.244.147]) by home.tri.net (8.6.12/1.0000000001) with SMTP id QAA13855 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:56:55 -0600 Message-ID: <32DD6037.7338@tri.net> Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 16:54:47 -0600 From: Lawrence Stoskopf Reply-To: stoskopf@tri.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: FreeWave for Internet access Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. We are not quite line of sight, but the path should work. Guess I need to know if the FreeWave will work serial port to serial port without too much grief? Any idea how far we can run the data line as I think his server is on the back of the building on the first floor and I would need to get to the front of the second and loss in the data line should be less than at 900 MHz? Thanks, N0UU From ddennis@metronet.com Wed Jan 15 22:02:41 1997 Received: from metronet.com (root@mail.metronet.com [192.245.137.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA26176 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:02:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from dal61.metronet.com by metronet.com with SMTP id AA01152 (5.67a/IDA1.5hp for ); Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:02:53 -0600 Received: by dal61.metronet.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC032F.C13BCFC0@dal61.metronet.com>; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:02:09 -0600 Message-Id: <01BC032F.C13BCFC0@dal61.metronet.com> From: David Dennis To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: [RE: 827] FreeWave for Internet access Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 21:59:05 -0600 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit You might want to use one of those cool fiber optic RS232 extenders. Honeywell makes some and so do some other people. ---------- From: Lawrence Stoskopf[SMTP:stoskopf@tri.net] Sent: Wed, January 15, 1997 2:29 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:827] FreeWave for Internet access While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. We are not quite line of sight, but the path should work. Guess I need to know if the FreeWave will work serial port to serial port without too much grief? Any idea how far we can run the data line as I think his server is on the back of the building on the first floor and I would need to get to the front of the second and loss in the data line should be less than at 900 MHz? Thanks, N0UU From jeff@mich.com Wed Jan 15 22:16:13 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id WAA27337 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 22:16:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id XAA14758 for ; Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:17:07 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970116041615.0070b8d0@mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 15 Jan 1997 23:16:15 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS:827] FreeWave for Internet access At 08:29 PM 1/15/97 -0600, Lawrence Stoskopf wrote: >While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone >connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the >33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is >buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact >that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he >would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) >access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. > >We are not quite line of sight, but the path should work. Guess I need >to know if the FreeWave will work serial port to serial port without too >much grief? Any idea how far we can run the data line as I think his >server is on the back of the building on the first floor and I would >need to get to the front of the second and loss in the data line should >be less than at 900 MHz? > >Thanks, > >N0UU > > Thats how I do it Lawrence. I have a FreeWave at my ISP. Been there over a year and only outages have been when the PPP daemon on the linux box died. I did have some problems with the data line. Make sure to use low capacetence runs.... my first run was with shielded cable and the PC's serial port couldn't drive it. My Data run at the ISP is 20 feet, with 50 feet of 9913. At the home office, I have 30 feet of RS-232 with a 50 foot 9913 run. Data line is also much cheaper then 9913. Worst case, you could get some RS-422 converters if the data run was very long. My rs-232 rate at both sites is 115kbaud. BTW, the FreeWave also supports 230Kbaud on the serial line. Good luck. Regards, ------------------------------------ | Jeff King Aero Data Systems | | jeff@mich.com P.O. Box 9325 | | (810)471-1787 Livonia, MI 48151 | |F(810)471-0279 United States | ------------------------------------ From coccpce@mailbox.nauta.it Thu Jan 16 01:53:15 1997 Received: from mail.nauta.it (root@tamata.nauta.it [194.21.179.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id BAA14814 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 01:53:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from coccpce.nauta.it (coccpce.nauta.it [194.21.180.3]) by mail.nauta.it (8.6.12/8.6.9) with ESMTP id IAA01477 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:52:57 +0100 Message-Id: <199701160752.IAA01477@mail.nauta.it> From: "S.Coccon" To: Subject: R: [SS:827] FreeWave for Internet access Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 08:48:55 +0100 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1157 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Dear Lawrence, I have personal experience of cheap fiber optic asynchronous, ful-duplex interfaces. These devices use 50/125 or 62,5/125 um multimode twin optical fibre and are able to connect sites at 2 or 3 kilometers. Their electrical interface is RS232 or RS422. Ciao - Stefano ---------- > Da: Lawrence Stoskopf > A: ss@tapr.org > Oggetto: [SS:827] FreeWave for Internet access > Data: giovedì 16 gennaio 1997 3.29 > > While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone > connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the > 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is > buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact > that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he > would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) > access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. > > We are not quite line of sight, but the path should work. Guess I need > to know if the FreeWave will work serial port to serial port without too > much grief? Any idea how far we can run the data line as I think his > server is on the back of the building on the first floor and I would > need to get to the front of the second and loss in the data line should > be less than at 900 MHz? > > Thanks, > > N0UU From rdcole@mindspring.com Thu Jan 16 18:00:53 1997 Received: from mule1.mindspring.com (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA23463 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:00:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from ron (ip218.fort-worth3.tx.pub-ip.psi.net [38.27.17.218]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id TAA41740 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:00:45 -0500 Message-ID: <32DEC12A.3A5D@mindspring.com> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 18:00:42 -0600 From: Ron Cole X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:827] FreeWave for Internet access References: <32DD6037.7338@tri.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence Stoskopf wrote: > > While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone > connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the > 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is > buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact > that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he > would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) > access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. > > We are not quite line of sight, but the path should work. Guess I need > to know if the FreeWave will work serial port to serial port without too > much grief? Any idea how far we can run the data line as I think his > server is on the back of the building on the first floor and I would > need to get to the front of the second and loss in the data line should > be less than at 900 MHz? > > Thanks, > > N0UU The Radios are a Serial port radio and will pass the internet connection from his server to you computer niceley. For the data wiring I would pick up a couple of RS-485 converters. This should allow serial data to be extended to about 1000' without too much problem. Telebyte and Black Box both make RS-232 extenders that should make this project work. Ron Cole N5HYH From pozar@kumr.lns.com Thu Jan 16 19:12:25 1997 Received: from kumr.lns.com (pozar@kumr.lns.com [140.174.7.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA26600 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 19:12:22 -0600 (CST) Received: (from pozar@localhost) by kumr.lns.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id RAA02615 for ss@tapr.org; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:15:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Pozar Message-Id: <199701170115.RAA02615@kumr.lns.com> Subject: Re: [SS:831] Re: FreeWave for Internet access To: ss@tapr.org Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 17:15:00 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <32DEC12A.3A5D@mindspring.com> from "Ron Cole" at Jan 16, 97 06:01:52 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence Stoskopf wrote: > While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone > connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the > 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is > buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact > that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he > would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) > access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. Gads! Sounds like just want I have been looking for! I check out the tapr web page and all I can find on this project is a page that sez: http://www.tapr.org/ss/radio900.html This page will be back on-line Tuesday (1/7/97). Please check back then for full details on the purchase. And a picture. Can anyone point to specs on this thing and if any are availible and at what cost? Thanks... Tim -- Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 From stoskopf@tri.net Thu Jan 16 21:17:57 1997 Received: from home.tri.net (root@home.tri.net [205.153.244.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA03447 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:17:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from mine (g4.tri.net [205.153.244.137]) by home.tri.net (8.6.12/1.0000000001) with SMTP id VAA01591 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:17:51 -0600 Message-ID: <32DEEED9.120@tri.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:15:37 -0600 From: Lawrence Stoskopf Reply-To: stoskopf@tri.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:829] Re: FreeWave for Internet access References: <2.2.32.19970116041615.0070b8d0@mich.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, Got to see if the budget will handle it. N0UU From stoskopf@tri.net Thu Jan 16 21:24:55 1997 Received: from home.tri.net (root@home.tri.net [205.153.244.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA03824 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:24:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from mine (g4.tri.net [205.153.244.137]) by home.tri.net (8.6.12/1.0000000001) with SMTP id VAA01789 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:24:40 -0600 Message-ID: <32DEF072.7D55@tri.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:22:26 -0600 From: Lawrence Stoskopf Reply-To: stoskopf@tri.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:830] R: FreeWave for Internet access References: <199701160752.IAA01477@mail.nauta.it> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit S.Coccon wrote: > > Dear Lawrence, I have personal experience of cheap fiber optic > asynchronous, ful-duplex interfaces. > > These devices use 50/125 or 62,5/125 um multimode twin optical fibre and > are able to connect sites at 2 or 3 kilometers. > > Their electrical interface is RS232 or RS422. > > Ciao - Stefano Thanks for the answer. I'm going to do something like that to run a sig to a remote TX/RX in a shed about 600 meters from the shack. Leave for Rome tomorrow night. Will be on the Via Veneto Sunday PM for 5 days. Hoping for better weather than the 0 degrees C here. 73 N0UU From stoskopf@tri.net Thu Jan 16 21:45:52 1997 Received: from home.tri.net (root@home.tri.net [205.153.244.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA04625 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:45:50 -0600 (CST) Received: from mine (g4.tri.net [205.153.244.137]) by home.tri.net (8.6.12/1.0000000001) with SMTP id VAA02512 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:45:45 -0600 Message-ID: <32DEF564.7D41@tri.net> Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 21:43:32 -0600 From: Lawrence Stoskopf Reply-To: stoskopf@tri.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:831] Re: FreeWave for Internet access References: <32DEC12A.3A5D@mindspring.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Thanks, will try if budget will allow! N0UU > The Radios are a Serial port radio and will pass the internet connection > from his server to you computer niceley. For the data wiring I would > pick up a couple of RS-485 converters. This should allow serial data to > be extended to about 1000' without too much problem. Telebyte and Black > Box both make RS-232 extenders that should make this project work. > > Ron Cole > N5HYH From lbush@eramp.net Thu Jan 16 22:31:24 1997 Received: from www (www.eramp.net [206.149.42.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA06594 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:31:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from lbush@eramp.net.www by www (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA29490; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:30:12 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970117043229.00693234@eramp.net> X-Sender: lbush@eramp.net (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:32:29 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: Larry Bush Subject: Re: [SS:832] Re: FreeWave for Internet access At 07:19 PM 1/16/97 -0600, you wrote: >Lawrence Stoskopf wrote: >> While visiting with my Internet provider about the poor telephone >> connections here..four miles from town..and my difficulty in getting the >> 33.6 modem to even act at half that when the weather is wet(the line is >> buried!), I happened to mention the FreeWave TAPR project and the fact >> that it seems to work at 115K. He is not a ham, but commented that he >> would give me a port on his server and rooftop (or 2nd story window) >> access for an antenna as an alternative to my phone access. > >Gads! Sounds like just want I have been looking for! I check out the tapr >web page and all I can find on this project is a page that sez: > >http://www.tapr.org/ss/radio900.html > >This page will be back on-line Tuesday (1/7/97). >Please check back then for full details on the purchase. > >And a picture. > >Can anyone point to specs on this thing and if any are availible and at >what cost? > >Thanks... >Tim >-- > Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com > Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA > POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 > > Check out web site http://www.teleport.com/~nts/freewave/fw1.html 73 Larry Bush, W5NCD 359 Arrowhead Point Waco, Texas 76712 phone 817-848-5155 Fax # 817-299-1040 From lbush@eramp.net Thu Jan 16 22:36:58 1997 Received: from www (www.eramp.net [206.149.42.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA06946 for ; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:36:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from lbush@eramp.net.www by www (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id WAA29668; Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:35:47 -0600 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970117043804.00691d14@eramp.net> X-Sender: lbush@eramp.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 16 Jan 1997 22:38:04 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: Larry Bush Subject: Re: [SS:832] Re: FreeWave for Internet access >Can anyone point to specs on this thing and if any are availible and at >what cost? > >Thanks... >Tim >-- > Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com > Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA > POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 > > Also check site http://www.freewave.com/dgr115.html 73 Larry Bush, W5NCD 359 Arrowhead Point Waco, Texas 76712 phone 817-848-5155 Fax # 817-299-1040 From pozar@kumr.lns.com Fri Jan 17 10:07:03 1997 Received: from kumr.lns.com (pozar@kumr.lns.com [140.174.7.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA07567 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 10:06:46 -0600 (CST) Received: (from pozar@localhost) by kumr.lns.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id IAA15018 for ss@tapr.org; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:09:46 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Pozar Message-Id: <199701171609.IAA15018@kumr.lns.com> Subject: Re: [SS:836] Re: FreeWave for Internet access To: ss@tapr.org Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 08:09:45 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970117043229.00693234@eramp.net> from "Larry Bush" at Jan 16, 97 10:36:26 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Larry Bush wrote: > At 07:19 PM 1/16/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Gads! Sounds like just want I have been looking for! I check out the tapr > >web page and all I can find on this project is a page that sez: > > > >http://www.tapr.org/ss/radio900.html > > > >This page will be back on-line Tuesday (1/7/97). > >Please check back then for full details on the purchase. > > > >And a picture. > > > >Can anyone point to specs on this thing and if any are availible and at > >what cost? > > Check out web site http://www.teleport.com/~nts/freewave/fw1.html Thanks folks for all the pointers. I think I am clued in now. :-) Tim -- Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 From dinod@deltanet.com Fri Jan 17 13:14:24 1997 Received: from mail1.deltanet.com (mail.deltanet.com [199.171.190.55]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA15941 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:14:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from dino (anx-ana2165.deltanet.com [204.254.68.165]) by mail1.deltanet.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id LAA10827 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:14:21 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970117191420.006976a0@mail.deltanet.com> X-Sender: dinod@mail.deltanet.com (Unverified) X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 11:14:20 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dino Darling Subject: WEB Page Problems... Hello My friend Steve Ruiz (KN6XQ) is using LYNX 2-4-2 to view the following page... http://www.tapr.org/ss/radio900.html He is receiving ALL the data on the radio. I'm using Netscape (the BEST) version 3.01. I am NOT receiving all the data on the page (ie specs). I cleared my MEMORY CASHE and my DISK CASHE. Still nothing when reloading the page. I can do VIEW/DOCUMENT SOURCE and see the data but Netscape does not view it. HELP PLEASE!!!Dino...dinod@deltanet.com From coccpce@mailbox.nauta.it Fri Jan 17 13:52:10 1997 Received: from mail.nauta.it (root@tamata.nauta.it [194.21.179.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA17799 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 13:52:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from coccpce.nauta.it (coccpce.nauta.it [194.21.180.3]) by mail.nauta.it (8.6.12/8.6.9) with SMTP id UAA19554 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:51:46 +0100 Message-ID: <32E0569D.E53@mailbox.nauta.it> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 20:50:37 -0800 From: Stefano Coccon Organization: P.C.E. X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (Win16; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:834] Re: R: FreeWave for Internet access References: <32DEF072.7D55@tri.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Lawrence Stoskopf wrote: > > S.Coccon wrote: > > > > Dear Lawrence, I have personal experience of cheap fiber optic > > asynchronous, ful-duplex interfaces. > > > > These devices use 50/125 or 62,5/125 um multimode twin optical fibre and > > are able to connect sites at 2 or 3 kilometers. > > > > Their electrical interface is RS232 or RS422. > > > > Ciao - Stefano > > Thanks for the answer. I'm going to do something like that to run a sig > to a remote TX/RX in a shed about 600 meters from the shack. > > Leave for Rome tomorrow night. Will be on the Via Veneto Sunday PM for > 5 days. Hoping for better weather than the 0 degrees C here. > > 73 > > N0UU Dear Lawrence, I hope this mail'll reach you before your trip. Regarding the possibilities to use optical fibres I can give you direct help. I see that you are going to Roma...I was born there but it is a lot of time that I do not go there. If you wish to have more informations you can phone me: (0432)-961197 or (0338)-374592 if you can use a fax I have some documentation on optical links. Ciao - Stefano From n3jly@erols.com Fri Jan 17 14:06:13 1997 Received: from mx03.erols.com (mx03.erols.com [205.252.116.75]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA18406 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:06:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as6s09.erols.com [207.172.73.73]) by mx03.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id PAA03519 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:06:09 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:06:09 -0500 Message-Id: <199701172006.PAA03519@mx03.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Freewave I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. With waiting till enough orders come in, and the end of the month, with my luck the UPS man will pull upto my house while i'm driving to the airport to go to Dayton. I'm really looking forward to going this year. I missed last year with a broken foot(could've gone but no flea marketing? what's the point). Haven't seen the schedule yet. Will there be any good SS symposiums or presentations? Tony From pozar@kumr.lns.com Fri Jan 17 16:12:11 1997 Received: from kumr.lns.com (pozar@kumr.lns.com [140.174.7.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA26973 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:12:05 -0600 (CST) Received: (from pozar@localhost) by kumr.lns.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id OAA19319 for ss@tapr.org; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:15:35 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Pozar Message-Id: <199701172215.OAA19319@kumr.lns.com> Subject: Re: [SS:841] Freewave To: ss@tapr.org Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 14:15:34 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <199701172006.PAA03519@mx03.erols.com> from "Tony McConnell" at Jan 17, 97 02:12:21 pm MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony McConnell wrote: > I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. > > With waiting till enough orders come in, and the end of > the month, with my luck the UPS man will pull upto my > house while i'm driving to the airport to go to Dayton. >From who, how much? Thanks... Tim -- Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 From stoskopf@tri.net Fri Jan 17 16:33:14 1997 Received: from home.tri.net (root@home.tri.net [205.153.244.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA28034 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:33:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from mine (g4.tri.net [205.153.244.137]) by home.tri.net (8.6.12/1.0000000001) with SMTP id QAA03791 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:33:09 -0600 Message-ID: <32DFFDA1.1018@tri.net> Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:30:57 -0600 From: Lawrence Stoskopf Reply-To: stoskopf@tri.net X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: apology Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Sorry that I posted several replies to this forum instead of individually. Probably will order two of the units next week when I get back and value this forum. N0UU From zsolt@direct.ca Fri Jan 17 17:41:11 1997 Received: from aphex.direct.ca (root@aphex.direct.ca [199.60.229.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA00960 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 17:41:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from boxer.direct.ca (van-as-11a14.direct.ca [204.174.245.110]) by aphex.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id PAA17188; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 15:40:56 -0800 (PST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 16:45:47 -0800 (PST) From: George Cserenyi To: Tim Pozar cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:842] Re: Freewave In-Reply-To: <199701172215.OAA19319@kumr.lns.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Tim Pozar wrote: > Tony McConnell wrote: > > I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. > > > > With waiting till enough orders come in, and the end of > > the month, with my luck the UPS man will pull upto my > > house while i'm driving to the airport to go to Dayton. > > > >From who, how much? > > Thanks... > Tim > > -- > Internet: pozar @ kumr.lns.com > Snail: Tim Pozar / LNS / 1978 45th Ave / San Francisco CA 94116 / USA > POTS: +1 415 665 3790 Radio: KC6GNJ / KAE6247 > Thanks for what? How much? George From n3jly@erols.com Fri Jan 17 18:32:18 1997 Received: from mx02.erols.com (mx02.erols.com [205.252.116.70]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA03268 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 18:32:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as9s29.erols.com [207.172.74.29]) by mx02.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id TAA15046 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:32:04 -0500 Date: Fri, 17 Jan 1997 19:32:04 -0500 Message-Id: <199701180032.TAA15046@mx02.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:842] Re: Freewave >Tony McConnell wrote: >> I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. >>From who, how much? > >Thanks... >Tim TAPR has arranged a group purchase. ~$400 each From ka8pog@bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org Fri Jan 17 21:34:40 1997 Received: from home.merit.edu (home.merit.edu [198.108.60.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA11606 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 21:34:39 -0600 (CST) From: ka8pog@bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org Received: from bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org (ka8pog.ampr.org [44.102.1.42]) by home.merit.edu (8.8.4/merit-2.0) with SMTP id WAA26900 for ; Fri, 17 Jan 1997 22:34:12 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 17 Jan 97 22:41:34 EST Message-Id: <6264@bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org> Reply-To: ka8pog@bbs.ka8pog.ampr.org To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:845] Re: Freewave In-Reply-To: your message of Fri Jan 17 18:33:59 1997 <199701180032.TAA15046@mx02.erols.com> I was under the impresson the radios were 275 but I could be wrong. the non group price is 400 I hope. ugh! anyway or either way Im really looking forward to the hi speed stuff anyone for sure what these radios are at group price? also anyone out there have plans for building home brew antennas for the radios? Phil From fred@astro.wnmu.edu Sat Jan 18 10:38:41 1997 Received: from a202.wnmu.edu (fred@A202.WNMU.EDU [198.59.153.202]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA17760 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 10:38:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by a202.wnmu.edu (8.6.12/8.6.9) id QAA00287 for ss@tapr.org; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:37:55 GMT From: Fred Treasure Message-Id: <199701181637.QAA00287@a202.wnmu.edu> Subject: Preliminary results performance tests of WaveLAN 915 MHz systems. To: ss@tapr.org Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:37:54 +0000 (GMT) X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL24] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I've been making some performance tests using WaveLAN 915 MHz equipment and a variety of antennas. All of the tests have been conducted using point-to-point line-of-sight paths. The reference node is a 915 MHz WaveLAN card feeding a WaveAMP amplifier that boosts the signal to 1 watt. This is fed to 20 feet of 9913 into a 6db Antennex Vertical Antenna. This configuration is a maximum power part 15 setup. I have three test sites at distances of .75, 4 and 5 miles from the reference node. The .75 mile site can run under part 15 rules with no problems. The 4 and 5 mile paths are more of a challenge. These sites are on a couple of mountain-tops. The 4 mile path is about 1300 feet higher than reference node (which is 6000 feet AMSL). I can get 100% copy at this site with the following setup: WaveLAN feeding WaveAMP to 25 feet 9913 to 13 element (advertised 12db) beam. I've tried more antennas at the 5 mile path. This site is at 8000 feet AMSL. A part 15 configuration won't work at this distance. I can get intermittent packets with the 13 element beam but this is not really a usable configuration (the rest of the system is the WaveLAN, WaveAMP and 25 feet of 9913.) I tried using 60 feet of half-inch hardline to a higher location on the tower to the same 13 element beam. This didn't work at all. I next built a 25 element beam (probably about 15 db gain) and at times this would give 100% copy. The problem was with propagation effects. I suspect that the antenna was seeing some boundary-layer effects from looking down from the mountain into a warm bubble of air surrounding the town where the reference node is located. The propagation varied from no packets to 100% copy depending on time-of-day, weather, etc. I talked to the local microwave telephone company guys and they confirmed that they have seen this type of problem with some of their sites. They said the the location of the antenna was often critical, i.e. a few feet can make the difference between no path and a good one. While I was visiting the phone guys I borrowed a 6 foot parabolic dish. I built an appropriate feed assembly and found that while the dish has superior gain it is affected even more by propagation effects. Now a question for the TAPR FreeWave group: What kind of connectors will be installed on the units? I'd like to have all of the adapters built to start testing the units as soon as they arrive. Fred Treasure, KE5CI sysop@astro.wnmu.edu From n3jly@erols.com Sat Jan 18 12:54:15 1997 Received: from mx03.erols.com (mx03.erols.com [205.252.116.75]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA25412 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:54:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as13s50.erols.com [207.172.75.50]) by mx03.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id NAA23770 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:54:12 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:54:12 -0500 Message-Id: <199701181854.NAA23770@mx03.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:847] Preliminary results performance tests of WaveLAN 915 MHz systems. > While I was visiting the phone guys I borrowed a 6 >foot parabolic dish. I built an appropriate feed assembly and found that >while the dish has superior gain it is affected even more by propagation >effects. I've seen this effect on some 900MHz links that i've installed. sometimes it seems that a pit of multipath may be providing some 'path diversity'. I've also seen examples of moving and antenna a few feet, in a direction that you wouldn't necessarily think would help, help. makes me think of 'rawleigh'(sp?) fading, small pockets of null signal, it's been so long since i've looked into this that i don't remember what causes them. But recombant multipath could. >Now a question for the TAPR FreeWave group: What kind of connectors will >be installed on the units? I'd like to have all of the adapters built to >start testing the units as soon as they arrive. according to TAPR and Freewave Web sites, the connector is a 'left threaded SMA'. i've been doing radio and microwave work for nearly 20 years, and i've been fortunate enough to never see a reverse threaded SMA, and would like to keep it that way. but i guess noone asked me. Tony - N3JLI From lylej@azstarnet.com Sat Jan 18 13:55:16 1997 Received: from mailhost.azstarnet.com (mailhost.azstarnet.com [169.197.1.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA28235 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:55:14 -0600 (CST) Received: from tomswift2 (usr6ip49.azstarnet.com [169.197.7.49]) by mailhost.azstarnet.com (8.8.3-p/8.8.3) with SMTP id MAA29542 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:50:31 -0700 (MST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:50:31 -0700 (MST) Message-Id: <3.0.32.19970118125348.005e0410@pop.azstarnet.com> X-Sender: lylej@pop.azstarnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 3.0 (32) To: ss@tapr.org From: Lyle Johnson Subject: Re: [SS:848] Re: Preliminary results performance tests of WaveLAN Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Tony, Part15 requires that units with separable antennas use conenctors that mortal humans cannot obtain. This is to prevent people from using antennas, feedlines, etc., that weren't part of the package that received the Part 15 blessing. It is annoying, but then it was intended to be... :-) Cheers, Lyle At 12:58 PM 1/18/97 -0600, Tony McConnell wrote: >according to TAPR and Freewave Web sites, the connector is a 'left threaded >SMA'. i've been doing radio and microwave work for nearly 20 years, and i've >been fortunate enough to never see a reverse threaded SMA, and would like to >keep it that way. but i guess noone asked me. From dewayne@warpspeed.com Sat Jan 18 14:55:32 1997 Received: from warpspeed.com (odo.warpspeed.com [204.118.182.20]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA00735 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 14:55:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from [204.118.182.22] by warpspeed.com with ESMTP (Apple Internet Mail Server 1.1.1); Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:55:27 -0800 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <3.0.32.19970118125348.005e0410@pop.azstarnet.com> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 12:52:31 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dewayne Hendricks Subject: Re: [SS:849] Re: Preliminary results performance tests of At 1:58 PM -0600 1/18/97, Lyle Johnson wrote: >Part15 requires that units with separable antennas use conenctors that >mortal humans cannot obtain. This is to prevent people from using >antennas, feedlines, etc., that weren't part of the package that received >the Part 15 blessing. It is annoying, but then it was intended to be... :-) This rule didn't come into effect until June, 1994. Any Part 15 device manufacteured before that date did not have that restriction. Some companies have been able to obtain a waiver from the FCC that allows them to sell their equipment without a special connector. The catch is that the equipment has to be 'professionally installed' and the manufacteur has to take care to certify that this is the case. Cylink, BreezeCom and Western Multiplex are examples of companies who have such a waiver. -- Dewayne -- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Dewayne Hendricks, WA8DZP ! AOL: HENDRICKS Warp Speed Imagineering ! Internet: dewayne@warpspeed.com 43730 Vista Del Mar ! Packet Radio: WA8DZP @ K3MC.#NOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM Fremont, CA 94539-3204 ! WWW: Fax: (510) 770-9854 ! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From n3jly@erols.com Sat Jan 18 15:26:22 1997 Received: from mx04.erols.com (mx04.erols.com [205.252.116.114]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA02131 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:26:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as7s54.erols.com [207.172.73.182]) by mx04.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id QAA26923 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:20 -0500 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:26:20 -0500 Message-Id: <199701182126.QAA26923@mx04.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:849] Re: Preliminary results performance tests of >Tony, > >Part15 requires that units with separable antennas use conenctors that >mortal humans cannot obtain. > >Lyle > >At 12:58 PM 1/18/97 -0600, Tony McConnell wrote: >>according to TAPR and Freewave Web sites, the connector is a 'left threaded >>SMA'. I just spent sevral minutes looking through the Pasternack catalog and saw no sign of such things ARe you using freewave cables and antennae(yeah right!) or did you find a source for the fittings? I guess that worst case i can order one short jumper and make two adapter cables from it. i've already put up a DB586 to start testing, maybe i should put up a 900 beacon and see how far it goes. unfortunately the only options i've got for a transmitter would be +20dBm from some test equipment or 150 to 300 watts from a Motorola PURC(well i guess i could use exciter out instead 7 to 10 or something like that). hmm maybe i will get that warmed up and see how it goes. Tony N3JLI From wa2msu@msn.com Sat Jan 18 15:37:32 1997 Received: from upsmot01.msn.com (upsmot01.msn.com [204.95.110.78]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA02773 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:37:31 -0600 (CST) Received: from upmajb04.msn.com ([204.95.110.81]) by upsmot01.msn.com (8.6.8.1/Configuration 4) with SMTP id NAA00446 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 13:37:08 -0800 Date: Sat, 18 Jan 97 21:37:22 UT From: "Guy Mallery" Message-Id: To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RE: 849] Re: Preliminary results performance tests of *>Part15 requires that units with separable antennas use conenctors that *>mortal humans cannot obtain. This is to prevent people from using *>antennas, feedlines, etc., that weren't part of the package that received *>the Part 15 blessing. It is annoying, but then it was intended to be... :-) Hey there... Try the customer service page at: http://www.johnsoncomp.com 73, Guy, wa2msu/6 wa2msu@msn.com Stockton, CA >according to TAPR and Freewave Web sites, the connector is a 'left threaded >SMA'. i've been doing radio and microwave work for nearly 20 years, and i've >been fortunate enough to never see a reverse threaded SMA, and would like to >keep it that way. but i guess noone asked me. From glittle@awod.com Sat Jan 18 15:55:06 1997 Received: from sumter.awod.com (awod.com [198.81.225.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id PAA03974 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 15:55:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from chs0021.awod.com (chs0021.awod.com [208.140.96.21]) by sumter.awod.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id QAA09283 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:54:57 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701182154.QAA09283@sumter.awod.com> X-Sender: glittle@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 16:59:29 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Glenn Little Subject: Re: [SS:849] Re: Preliminary results performance tests of At 01:58 PM 1/18/97 -0600, you wrote: >Tony, > >Part15 requires that units with separable antennas use conenctors that >mortal humans cannot obtain. This is to prevent people from using >antennas, feedlines, etc., that weren't part of the package that received >the Part 15 blessing. It is annoying, but then it was intended to be... :-) > >Cheers, > >Lyle > >At 12:58 PM 1/18/97 -0600, Tony McConnell wrote: >>according to TAPR and Freewave Web sites, the connector is a 'left threaded >>SMA'. i've been doing radio and microwave work for nearly 20 years, and i've >>been fortunate enough to never see a reverse threaded SMA, and would like to >>keep it that way. but i guess noone asked me. > > > I ran into a Wang Network card that used RF. It had a reverse threaded F fitting. I thought that this was to keep the zero IQ installers from reversing the TX and RX lines. I quess I was wrong. There may be other reverse threaded connectors out there. 73 Glenn Little WB4UIV WB4UIV@amsat.org glittle@awod.com From zsolt@direct.ca Sat Jan 18 20:53:11 1997 Received: from orb.direct.ca (root@orb.direct.ca [199.60.229.5]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA18143 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 20:53:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from boxer.direct.ca (van-as-04c09.direct.ca [204.174.248.185]) by orb.direct.ca (8.8.3/8.8.0) with SMTP id SAA23761; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 18:52:57 -0800 (PST) Date: Sat, 18 Jan 1997 19:58:30 -0800 (PST) From: George Cserenyi Reply-To: George Cserenyi To: Tony McConnell cc: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:845] Re: Freewave In-Reply-To: <199701180032.TAA15046@mx02.erols.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Hi, On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Tony McConnell wrote: > >Tony McConnell wrote: > >> I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. > > >>From who, how much? > > > >Thanks... > >Tim > TAPR has arranged a group purchase. ~$400 each > Isn't that the regular price? Many thanks. George From n5ist@ix.netcom.com Sun Jan 19 00:45:11 1997 Received: from dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com [206.214.98.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id AAA03283 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:45:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from tfx-us1-05.ix.netcom.com ([204.30.67.37]) by dfw-ix3.ix.netcom.com (8.6.13/8.6.12) with SMTP id WAA00165 for ; Sat, 18 Jan 1997 22:44:32 -0800 Message-ID: <32E1C24C.236A@ix.netcom.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 00:42:20 -0600 From: Wade Cotton X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:854] Re: Freewave References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit The regular price is about $1250.00. The price for TAPR members participating in the STA is $400.00. George Cserenyi wrote: > > Hi, > > On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Tony McConnell wrote: > > > >Tony McConnell wrote: > > >> I left voice mail yesterday ordering a pair of them. > > > > >>From who, how much? > > > > > >Thanks... > > >Tim > > TAPR has arranged a group purchase. ~$400 each > > > Isn't that the regular price? > Many thanks. > George -- Wade Cotton mailto:n5ist@ix.netcom.com 7117 Wood Hollow Dr. #417 Austin, Texas 78731-2549 Lat/Long: N 30 21.30' W 97 45.06' 1(512)418-9233 From jrc@brainiac.mn.org Sun Jan 19 05:13:14 1997 Received: from brainiac.mn.org (jrc.skypoint.net [199.86.32.189]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id FAA14387 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:13:12 -0600 (CST) Received: by brainiac.mn.org (4.1/SMI-4.1/J1.1) id AA06496; Sun, 19 Jan 97 05:13:30 CST From: jrc@brainiac.mn.org (Jeffrey Comstock) Message-Id: <9701191113.AA06496@brainiac.mn.org> Subject: Re: [SS:847] Preliminary results performance tests of WaveLAN 915 MHz systems. To: ss@tapr.org Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 05:13:29 -0600 (CST) In-Reply-To: <199701181637.QAA00287@a202.wnmu.edu> from "Fred Treasure" at Jan 18, 97 10:42:37 am X-Mailer: ELM [version 2.4 PL25] Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > > I've been making some performance tests using WaveLAN 915 MHz equipment and > a variety of antennas. All of the tests have been conducted using > point-to-point line-of-sight paths. The reference node is a 915 MHz WaveLAN Thanks for the info. One thing, could you please tell us the model numbers of the equipment you are testing ? There are a few different WaveLAN models, and I am not quite sure what TAPR is offering. From wd5ivd@tapr.org Sun Jan 19 12:41:54 1997 Received: from [208.134.134.42] ([208.134.134.42]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA03990; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:41:50 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 12:48:38 -0600 To: " Spread Spectrum ", "TAPR-BB list mailing" From: "Greg Jones, WD5IVD" Subject: Update on Freewave Group Purchase The purpose of this message is to report to you some bad news concerning the special purchase deal that TAPR had arranged with FreeWave Technologies, Inc. (FW) of Boulder, CO. First, as most of your are aware, TAPR had negotiated a special bulk purchase agreement with FW, which allowed us to offer the FW DGR-115 Part 15.147 spread spectrum radio to our members who are participating in the TAPR Spread Spectrum (SS) STA project, at a price which was below the normal retail price for the unit of $1250. An initial 'beta' order was placed the first of December with the purpose of getting units so that the radio could be evaluated to detemine which options we wanted to request, documentation for common interfaces written, and we could get the purchase process setup with FreeWave. When the order was placed, we were told that we could expect delivery before the end of 1996. However, when we finally received a confirmation of our order from FW, we were informed that we would not receive delivery of the units until January 17, 1997. The later delivery from FW caused us to revise our plans and we decided to start taking orders for the radio from the SS STA participants. We made this decision due to the fact that our current STA term is only six months and although we expect that it will be renewed, we didn't feel that we could waste any time in getting hardware into the hands of our STA participants. 13 days ago, we were informed that FW has cancelled the special purchase agreement with TAPR and that TAPR will receive no other units from FW other than the initial units that we purchased in our first 'beta' order. Since that time, we have been trying to resolve the issue with FW, but have made no progress on the matter to this date. As many of you have noted, there was a special web page discussing the purchase. We removed the links and later the page when the discussions with FreeWave were not going anywhere. TAPR will be notifying everyone that had signed up for the $399 version of the purchase that it has been cancelled and no money will be deposited or cashed, since no order can be placed with FreeWave. Any checks for radios will be mailed back. January 17 is now past and we still have no word from FW as to when we can expect delivery of the initial units that we have on order. Messages sent over the last 7 days have not been responded back to by anyone at FW. If I do not hear back by Monday I will call them. If that does not result in a positive solution the next step will be to involve TAPR's lawyers in the situation. I believe we will get the initial DGR-115 radios without modifications as contracted by FW in December, but the lack of communications on FW part is disheartening to say the least. I regret this turn of events and you can be assured that everyone involved is attempting to resolve the issues. We are also working on other alternatives which would allow TAPR to offer spread spectrum radios to our STA participants at an 'affordable' price. We will be posting updates on this situation as it develops on our various mailing lists and on the TAPR web site. Greg Jones, WD5IVD Pres. TAPR From n3jly@erols.com Sun Jan 19 18:28:36 1997 Received: from mx01.erols.com (mx01.erols.com [205.252.116.65]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA21419 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 18:28:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as14s56.erols.com [207.172.75.120]) by mx01.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970118.001mnd) with SMTP id TAA21876 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:28:28 -0500 Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:28:28 -0500 Message-Id: <199701200028.TAA21876@mx01.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: Re: [SS:857] Update on Freewave Group Purchase At 12:45 PM 1/19/97 -0600, you wrote: >The purpose of this message is to report to you some bad news concerning >the special purchase deal that TAPR had arranged with FreeWave >Technologies, Inc. (FW) of Boulder, CO. Big Snip >I regret this turn of events and you can be assured that everyone involved >is attempting to resolve the issues. We are also working on other >alternatives which would allow TAPR to offer spread spectrum radios to our >STA participants at an 'affordable' price. >Greg Jones, WD5IVD >Pres. TAPR Greg, Thank you very much for keeping us informed. This is a very disappointing situation. Tony McConnell N3JLI From hwm@netcom.com Sun Jan 19 19:23:34 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom13.netcom.com [192.100.81.125]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA23794 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:23:28 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id RAA00131; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:24:36 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <1.5.4.32.19970117191420.006976a0@mail.deltanet.com> Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 17:23:12 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: Dino Darling Subject: RE: [SS:839] WEB Page Problems... Cc: ss@tapr.org On 17-Jan-97 Dino Darling wrote: >Hello My friend Steve Ruiz (KN6XQ) is using LYNX 2-4-2 to view the following page... > >http://www.tapr.org/ss/radio900.html > >He is receiving ALL the data on the radio. I'm using Netscape (the BEST) version 3.01. >I am NOT receiving all the data on the page (ie specs). I cleared my MEMORY CASHE and my DISK CASHE. Still nothing when relo ading the page. I can do VIEW/DOCUMENT SOURCE and see the data but Netscape does not view it. > >HELP PLEASE!!!Dino...dinod@deltanet.com > > This one is easy Dino, reinstall windows. I have two radio/modems on order and so does Dave, kd6buy. wd6dod ---------------------------------- E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini Date: 19-Jan-97 Time: 17:23:15 ----------------------------XF-Mail From hwm@netcom.com Sun Jan 19 21:10:07 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom8.netcom.com [192.100.81.117]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA29278 for ; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 21:09:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id TAA00140; Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:10:56 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 19 Jan 1997 19:03:56 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RE: [SS:859] RE: WEB Page Problems... Cc: Bob Lorenzini I'am sorry for the inadvertent personal post to the SIG. I don't always use this newsreader. Sorry. Pretty embarasing to read my sarcastic reply to a ham I have not heard from in some time. I'am also going thru heavy depression after reading the status on the freewave order. :-( >------------------------------------------ E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini Date: 19-Jan-97 Time: 19:04:00 ----------------------------XF-Mail From n3jly@erols.com Mon Jan 20 23:40:07 1997 Received: from mx03.erols.com (mx03.erols.com [205.252.116.75]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA18467 for ; Mon, 20 Jan 1997 23:40:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from LOCALNAME (col-as15s43.erols.com [207.172.75.171]) by mx03.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id AAA01950 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:40:05 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 00:40:05 -0500 Message-Id: <199701210540.AAA01950@mx03.erols.com> X-Sender: n3jly@pop.erols.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: Tony McConnell Subject: SS of course... Ok FW pulled out, I've been working on getting the name calling out of my system and am progressing well. I'm about half as annoyed as i was yesterday, so i figure I've reached the anger half-life for this incident. In about another day or two it will be bellow the agravation threshhold. But to the important part. What happens now? The FW deal sounded good, but that seems irrelevant now. I was interested in the FW because it sounded easy and useful. I like turn-key solutions when they are available. But what about homebrewwing something? I know that this is not the answer for everyone. But I was hoping that you guys could share with me the criteria for the selection of a radio/scheme like this. what were you looking for? Is the issue really spread spectrum or high speed? What kind of data bandwidths do you want to consider? Range? Resync times? Simple off the shelf appliance operability? If someone came up with a working and reproducable homebrew, would it be of use to anyone else? From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Tue Jan 21 07:48:44 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA13474 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:48:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id IAA15269 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:47:01 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA06919; Tue, 21 Jan 97 08:46:59 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA24062; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:47:01 -0500 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:47:01 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701211347.IAA24062@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:861] SS of course... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Ok FW pulled out, I've been working on getting the name calling out > of my system and am progressing well. I'm about half as annoyed as > i was yesterday, so i figure I've reached the anger half-life for > this incident. In about another day or two it will be bellow the > agravation threshhold. But to the important part. What happens now? > The FW deal sounded good, but that seems irrelevant now. > > But what about homebrewwing something? I know that this is not the > answer for everyone. But I was hoping that you guys could share with > me the criteria for the selection of a radio/scheme like this. what > were you looking for? Is the issue really spread spectrum or high > speed? What kind of data bandwidths do you want to consider? Range? > Resync times? Simple off the shelf appliance operability? If someone > came up with a working and reproducable homebrew, would it be of use > to anyone else? > Maybe the FreeWave problem is a blessing in disguise. Now is a good time for the subscribers to this list to develop a low-cost SS system themselves. We could make it programmable, use a DSP, PLDs, FPGAs, the latest RF parts, surface-mount discrete components, etc. 73s de Tony KE4ATO From karn@laptop.ka9q.ampr.org Tue Jan 21 09:02:35 1997 Received: from laptop.ka9q.ampr.org ([199.106.96.180]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA16654 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:02:33 -0600 (CST) Received: by laptop.ka9q.ampr.org id m0vmhZ5-000MERC (Debian Smail-3.2 1996-Jul-4 #2); Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:52:43 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 06:52:43 -0800 (PST) From: Phil Karn To: ss@tapr.org Reply-To: karn@qualcomm.com In-reply-to: <199701211347.IAA24062@Paris.GASD102designcenter> (rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com) Subject: Re: [SS:862] Re: SS of course... >Maybe the FreeWave problem is a blessing in disguise. Now is a good time >for the subscribers to this list to develop a low-cost SS system themselves. I agree... Phil From dinod@deltanet.com Tue Jan 21 09:58:35 1997 Received: from mail1.deltanet.com (mail.deltanet.com [199.171.190.55]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA18933 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 09:58:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from dino (anx-ana2180.deltanet.com [204.254.68.180]) by mail1.deltanet.com (8.7.4/8.7.3) with SMTP id HAA02197 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:58:28 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <1.5.4.32.19970121155824.0067d914@mail.deltanet.com> X-Sender: dinod@mail.deltanet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.4 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 07:58:24 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Dino Darling Subject: Re: [SS:862] Re: SS of course... At 07:50 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote: > >Maybe the FreeWave problem is a blessing in disguise. Now is a good time >for the subscribers to this list to develop a low-cost SS system themselves. >We could make it programmable, use a DSP, PLDs, FPGAs, the latest RF parts, >surface-mount discrete components, etc. > >73s de Tony KE4ATO Maybe Amateur Radio can make improvements to this medium and design tomorrow's technology instead of using it. It gets back to the aurgument when Amateur Radio was designing and prototyping technology for the rest of the world instead of the other way around. While I don't have the technical knowledge, I'm willing to make a donation to a fund to buy parts and make boards...(speaking of that, I need to re-up my TAPR membership! What about you?...) A blessing in disguise?...quite possible! Who knows, maybe FW will want OUR technology! STA...6 months and counting..... Dino...dinod@deltanet.com From Gordon_Dey@Software.Mitel.COM Tue Jan 21 10:12:14 1997 Received: from cygnus.software.mitel.com (newgate.mitel.com [198.53.180.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA19641 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:12:13 -0600 (CST) Received: tid LAA14977; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 11:11:51 -0500 Received: from Software.Mitel.COM by Mitel.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA22138; Tue, 21 Jan 97 11:10:27 EST Received: from sten45.software by Software.Mitel.COM (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA13599; Tue, 21 Jan 97 11:10:26 EST Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 11:10:26 EST From: Gordon_Dey@Software.Mitel.COM (Gordon Dey) Message-Id: <9701211610.AA13599@Software.Mitel.COM> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:863] Re: SS of course... Develop our own. Neat opportunity. I've been kicking about the idea of gluing together: 1. one of those sexy harris PRISM chipsets; 2. motorola 68en360; 3. a 16M SIMM and a 512K flash; 4. AUI or 10-base-T spiggot; 5. a maintenace/monitor/OA&M RS232 plug. Use the bdm to debug/re-program the flash. Estimate: 1: $100? 2: 60? 3: 100 4: 35? 5: 5 _____ $300? misc hw, connectors, board, case: +$100? That's my 2-cents (or $400) worth... 73, Gord. From darnell@binmedia.com Tue Jan 21 10:18:01 1997 Received: from gumby.binmedia.com ([204.140.236.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA19731 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 10:17:56 -0600 (CST) Received: from [206.117.173.2] by gumby.binmedia.com (post.office MTA v1.9.3 ID# 0-12756) with SMTP id AAA51 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 08:11:54 -0800 Subject: Re: [SS:862] Re: SS of course... Date: Tue, 21 Jan 97 08:17:57 -0800 x-mailer: Claris Emailer 1.1 From: darnell@binmedia.com (Darnell Gadberry) To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Message-ID: <19970121161153767.AAA51@[206.117.173.2]> > >Maybe the FreeWave problem is a blessing in disguise. Now is a good time >for the subscribers to this list to develop a low-cost SS system themselves. >We could make it programmable, use a DSP, PLDs, FPGAs, the latest RF parts, >surface-mount discrete components, etc. > >73s de Tony KE4ATO > I am working on a design for a VERY simple 902-928 MHz DSSS system using the Zilog DS controller chip. Anyone interested in helping me finish the specification and or implementation. - darnell gadberry Phonica/binaryMedia Engineering ke6ucl From fred@tekdata.com Tue Jan 21 13:01:23 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-029.wwa.com [206.222.42.30]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA26668 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:01:12 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id MAA14841; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:04 -0600 Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 12:15:04 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Other "FreeWaves" Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII I kept an old issue of "Network Computing" because it had a large list of Wireless LANs in it (Dec. 15 1996).. It seems there are quite a few other units that are competitive with the FreeWave. Maybe TAPR shouldn't worry about obtaining ANY units from FreeWave, and try another source instead. The list prices for some units in the 3 mbps / 7 mile path is around $2000... (example of one picked out the article.. "BreezeNET")... this isn't much more than the $1300 list of the FreeWave... I also agree with the sentiment for the ham community to develop their own units, esp. if used with some of our microwave bands. Sorry to hear about the FreeWave problem. If anyone is interested in the "Network Computing" article, I could send more info from it... Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org From tenney@think.org Tue Jan 21 15:20:26 1997 Received: from think.org ([206.14.80.187]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA03906 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 15:20:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from [206.14.123.133] by think.org with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #57) id m0vmhsj-000ORfC; Tue, 21 Jan 97 15:13 GMT Message-Id: In-Reply-To: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 13:13:49 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Glenn S. Tenney KOTJ" Subject: Re: Other "FreeWaves" At 11:03 AM -0800 1/21/97, Fred M. Spinner wrote: >The list prices for some units in the 3 mbps / 7 mile path is around >$2000... (example of one picked out the article.. "BreezeNET")... this >isn't much more than the $1300 list of the FreeWave... Last month, while in Israel on business, I spent a couple of hours with the president of BreezeCom. Most interesting technology!!! However, they can and are selling every unit they can manufacture -- at the full going rate. --- Glenn Tenney KOTJ Fantasia Systems Inc. tenney@think.org Amateur radio: AA6ER Voice: (415) 574-3420 Fax: (415) 574-0546 From glittle@awod.com Tue Jan 21 19:49:35 1997 Received: from sumter.awod.com (awod.com [198.81.225.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA17947 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 19:49:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from chs0042.awod.com (chs0042.awod.com [208.140.96.42]) by sumter.awod.com (8.7.6/8.6.12) with SMTP id UAA25138 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:49:28 -0500 (EST) Message-Id: <199701220149.UAA25138@sumter.awod.com> X-Sender: glittle@awod.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:54:11 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Glenn Little Subject: Re: [SS:862] Re: SS of course... At 07:50 AM 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote: > snip > >Maybe the FreeWave problem is a blessing in disguise. Now is a good time >for the subscribers to this list to develop a low-cost SS system themselves. >We could make it programmable, use a DSP, PLDs, FPGAs, the latest RF parts, >surface-mount discrete components, etc. > >73s de Tony KE4ATO > > > How about a cell phone. These appear to be available under $10.00 at hamfests. The radio is capable of multichannel operation. Is reasonably sensitive. Provides 3W output. RX and Tx could be sent to different antennas to do away with duplexer. Radios I have seen use dielectricall tuned filters and duplexer. These move up in freq easier than down. Just a thought. 73 Glenn Little WB4UIV WB4UIV@amsat.org glittle@awod.com From xbrucex@popmail.mcs.net Tue Jan 21 21:00:05 1997 Received: from Kitten.mcs.com (Kitten.mcs.com [192.160.127.90]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA20339 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:59:55 -0600 (CST) Received: from xbrucex (xbrucex.pr.mcs.net [205.164.12.165]) by Kitten.mcs.com (8.8.2/8.8.2-biteme) with SMTP id UAA18297 for ; Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:59:45 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701220259.UAA18297@Kitten.mcs.com> X-Sender: xbrucex@popmail.mcs.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Tue, 21 Jan 1997 20:58:29 -0600 To: ss@tapr.org From: xbrucex Subject: Re: [SS:867] Other "FreeWaves" Fred - I don't have a copy of Network Computing, but would be really appreciative if you would E-mail me a list ot RF LAN devices PLEASE. If you would rather FAX it, I'll give you my FAX number by return E-mail. Bruce K9BC At 13:03 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote: >I kept an old issue of "Network Computing" because it had a large list >of Wireless LANs in it (Dec. 15 1996).. > >It seems there are quite a few other units that are competitive with >the FreeWave. Maybe TAPR shouldn't worry about obtaining ANY units from >FreeWave, and try another source instead. > >The list prices for some units in the 3 mbps / 7 mile path is around >$2000... (example of one picked out the article.. "BreezeNET")... this >isn't much more than the $1300 list of the FreeWave... > >I also agree with the sentiment for the ham community to develop their >own units, esp. if used with some of our microwave bands. > >Sorry to hear about the FreeWave problem. If anyone is interested in the >"Network Computing" article, I could send more info from it... > >Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW >fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org > > > From lfry@mindspring.com Wed Jan 22 05:45:21 1997 Received: from mule0.mindspring.com (mule0.mindspring.com [204.180.128.166]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id FAA16545 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 05:45:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from glory (user-168-121-136-107.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.136.107]) by mule0.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id GAA27606 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:45:17 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970122114631.005e78e0@mindspring.com> X-Sender: lfry@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 06:46:31 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Lee W. Fry" Subject: Re: [SS:869] Re: SS of course... At 07:55 PM 1/21/97 -0600, Glenn wrote: >How about a cell phone. These appear to be available under $10.00 at >hamfests. The radio is capable of multichannel operation. Is reasonably >sensitive. Provides 3W output. RX and Tx could be sent to different >antennas to do away with duplexer. Radios I have seen use dielectricall >tuned filters and duplexer. These move up in freq easier than down. Just a >thought. Or, how about a 900MHz SS wireless phone? I recently got a catalog from Mendelson's Electronics in Dayton OH that had refurb phones for $50. Some phones have a separate codec and feed 32 or 64kbps data to a 160kbps transceiver section. Alfa Inc at http://ns1.2win.com/alfa/wireless.html is an example of a cordless phone chip set that runs 160kbps half duplex and does time division multiplex to get 64 kbps duplex. Cylink at http://www.cylink.com/products/wireless/sseboard.htm has a similar 160 kbps chip set on an eval board with CODEC chip, a single-chip microcontroller, a 900 Mhz RF module, a telephone line interface, speaker phone and microphone, an RS232 port and a keypad / LCD display for user interface. So has anybody disected a SS cordless phone to see what's in it? Lee W. Fry AA0JP lfry@mindspring.com See my Part 15 Spread Spectrum Device Compendium at: http://www.mindspring.com/~lfry/part15.htm From arutz@shfmicro.com Wed Jan 22 08:29:33 1997 Received: from alice.adsnet.com (adsnet.com [206.158.2.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA22170 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:29:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from pool-001-227.adsnet.com (pool-001-227.adsnet.com [208.4.86.227]) by alice.adsnet.com (8.6.5/8.6.6) with SMTP id IAA11993 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:33:15 -0600 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 08:33:15 -0600 Message-Id: <199701221433.IAA11993@alice.adsnet.com> X-Sender: arutz@mail.adsnet.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Version 1.4.4 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: arutz@shfmicro.com (alan rutz) Subject: Re: [SS:870] Re: Other "FreeWaves" Another excellent source of information about what is available for RF LANs is found at: http://hydra.carleton.ca/info/wlan.html Published by Barry McLanon, VE3JF, it pretty much summarizes what you can buy.. Alan >Fred - >I don't have a copy of Network Computing, but would be really appreciative >if you would E-mail me a list ot RF LAN devices PLEASE. If you would rather >FAX it, I'll give you my FAX number by return E-mail. > >Bruce K9BC > >At 13:03 1/21/97 -0600, you wrote: >>I kept an old issue of "Network Computing" because it had a large list >>of Wireless LANs in it (Dec. 15 1996).. From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Wed Jan 22 12:43:04 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA03816 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 12:43:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA02936 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:41:04 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA16766; Wed, 22 Jan 97 13:41:00 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA26754; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:41:04 -0500 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 13:41:04 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701221841.NAA26754@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:865] Re: SS of course... X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Develop our own. Neat opportunity. > I've been kicking about the idea of gluing together: > > 1. one of those sexy harris PRISM chipsets; > 2. motorola 68en360; > 3. a 16M SIMM and a 512K flash; > 4. AUI or 10-base-T spiggot; > 5. a maintenace/monitor/OA&M RS232 plug. > > Use the bdm to debug/re-program the flash. > > Estimate: > 1: $100? > 2: 60? > 3: 100 > 4: 35? > 5: 5 > _____ > $300? > > misc hw, connectors, board, case: +$100? > That's my 2-cents (or $400) worth... > > 73, Gord. > > The PRISM chip set is a good idea. I have two sets of these and I intend to build a simple, yet effective DSSS system. I got the chipsets as samples from a distributor, so if you give them a good reason, you might get them for free (seriously). The only drawback from this is that now you area designing from a systems level and not detail level. But you still have to know how the thing runs to make it work! The PRISM chipset is also for use in the 2.4GHz range, so keep that in mind as well. It is microcontroller / microprocessor controlled, so that is an issue as well. The ideas are endless once you start putting your God-given brain to work. 73s de Tony KE4ATO From rw@txcc.net Wed Jan 22 16:59:11 1997 Received: from mail.txcc.net (mail.txcc.net [205.218.183.156]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA15372 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:59:10 -0600 (CST) Received: from port4.txcc.net (port4.txcc.net [205.218.183.134]) by mail.txcc.net (8.7.5/8.7.1) with SMTP id RAA26885 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:58:54 -0600 Received: by port4.txcc.net with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0885.93C58800@port4.txcc.net>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:59:06 -0600 Message-ID: <01BC0885.93C58800@port4.txcc.net> From: Ralph Ward To: "ss@tapr.org" Subject: RE: 871] Re: SS of course... Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 16:54:37 -0600 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Walmart is selling an "addressable" "phone" that claims to be digital, = uninterceptable. It allows any phone or group of phones to be set to = com. with each other. Range is "3 blocks". From outside the package, = it looks to be a 900mHz part 15 device. Wonder if it's a spread = spectrum addressable HT? ---------- From: Lee W. Fry[SMTP:lfry@mindspring.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 21, 1997 11:50 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:871] Re: SS of course... At 07:55 PM 1/21/97 -0600, Glenn wrote: >How about a cell phone. These appear to be available under $10.00 at >hamfests. The radio is capable of multichannel operation. Is = reasonably >sensitive. Provides 3W output. RX and Tx could be sent to different >antennas to do away with duplexer. Radios I have seen use = dielectricall >tuned filters and duplexer. These move up in freq easier than down. = Just a >thought. Or, how about a 900MHz SS wireless phone? I recently got a catalog from Mendelson's Electronics in Dayton OH that had refurb phones for $50. = Some phones have a separate codec and feed 32 or 64kbps data to a 160kbps transceiver section. =20 Alfa Inc at http://ns1.2win.com/alfa/wireless.html is an example of a cordless phone chip set that runs 160kbps half duplex and does time = division multiplex to get 64 kbps duplex. =20 Cylink at http://www.cylink.com/products/wireless/sseboard.htm has a = similar 160 kbps chip set on an eval board with CODEC chip, a single-chip microcontroller, a 900 Mhz RF module, a telephone line interface, = speaker phone and microphone, an RS232 port and a keypad / LCD display for user interface. So has anybody disected a SS cordless phone to see what's in it? Lee W. Fry AA0JP lfry@mindspring.com See my Part 15 Spread Spectrum Device Compendium at: http://www.mindspring.com/~lfry/part15.htm From hwm@netcom.com Wed Jan 22 17:57:43 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom3.netcom.com [192.100.81.103]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA17754 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 17:57:31 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA00118 for ss@tapr.org; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:57:09 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 15:33:46 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RangeLAN In the Jan 97 issue of ELECTRONIC PRODUCTS p. 83, is a probuct highlight on the proxim RangeLAN2 7400 PC card (pcmcia). I realise this is probably not a desirable form factor, but what I found interesting was the price/speed. "Type 2 pc-card 100 mw - 2.4G FHSS rubber duck or tethered dipole 1.6Mbits/s $300 ea in quantity Also offered: Range-LAN@ AP-II 7510/7520 access point < looks like a 16bit AT bus card provides network-management functiions and supports the leading network operating sytems." Upon further inspection of the photo it looks like there are two versions of the "access point". A standalone, and AT bus card. Proxin, Inc. Mountain View, CA information 800-229-1630 / 415-960-1630 http://www.proxim.com availablity now The price of the access point was not mentioned, nor is 100 mw much power but I thought it interesting none the less. E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini / wd6dod Date: 22-Jan-97 Time: 15:33:46 _____________________________XF-Mail From jkozak@erols.com Wed Jan 22 18:43:22 1997 Received: from mx06.erols.com (root@mx06.erols.com [205.252.116.250]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id SAA19947 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 18:43:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from wmn-as1s09.erols.com (wmn-as1s09.erols.com [205.177.156.9]) by mx06.erols.com (8.8.4/8.7.3/970114.001cmo) with SMTP id TAA15472 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:47:54 -0500 Received: by wmn-as1s09.erols.com with Microsoft Mail id <01BC089C.9FDFDCA0@wmn-as1s09.erols.com>; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:44:04 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC089C.9FDFDCA0@wmn-as1s09.erols.com> From: John Kozak To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 874] RE: 871] Re: Wal-mart radios Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:43:59 -0500 Return-Receipt-To: Encoding: 20 TEXT, 59 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 They are on 900 Mhz and have digital audio. I had a couple apart playing with them. They work like a cellphone without the cellsite. Common data channel, call channel and handoff to empty channel for remainder of conversation. They are very slick TOY radios with a 1 block range, but thats about it. John Kozak; N3AGG -----Original Message----- From: Ralph Ward [SMTP:rw@txcc.net] Sent: Wednesday, January 22, 1997 6:04 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:874] RE: 871] Re: SS of course... Walmart is selling an "addressable" "phone" that claims to be digital, uninterceptable. It allows any phone or group of phones to be set to com. with each other. Range is "3 blocks". From outside the package, it looks to be a 900mHz part 15 device. Wonder if it's a spread spectrum addressable HT? begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@4``0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`8 $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````-0`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'-S0'1A<'(N;W)G`%--5% ```,P`0````P```!S40&J&[" `K*E;"``!M`!X,`0`` M``4```!33510`````!X`'PP!````$0```&IK;WIA:T!E5%[!O M`2 ;,&\@_QM@!3 6D"!6`A %P EP`,#?"X $@1;@(7 %H&X8``^@>Q\P&.!N M&X46LB/A%I!SQ1Q 8QP@5$]9(M 94$\8X 0@&O,9@#$@`F!OUR6A)A 5<&4? MX&(=HQ\P[P0@`: =DAA@+@JB"H0*@ A*;V@#H$MO>F&$:SL'L#-!1TG!! 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"" &``````# ````````1@`````XA0`` J`0````$`````````'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``%&Z ` end From lfry@mindspring.com Wed Jan 22 19:07:42 1997 Received: from mule1.mindspring.com (mule1.mindspring.com [204.180.128.167]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA21372 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 19:07:41 -0600 (CST) Received: from glory (user-168-121-136-107.dialup.mindspring.com [168.121.136.107]) by mule1.mindspring.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id UAA36004 for ; Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:07:38 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970123010906.006184b0@mindspring.com> X-Sender: lfry@mindspring.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 22 Jan 1997 20:09:06 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: "Lee W. Fry" Subject: Re: [SS:874] RE: 871] Re: SS of course... At 05:03 PM 1/22/97 -0600, Ralph wrote: >Walmart is selling an "addressable" "phone" that claims to be digital, uninterceptable. It allows any phone or group of phones to be set to com. with each other. Range is "3 blocks". From outside the package, it looks to be a 900mHz part 15 device. Wonder if it's a spread spectrum addressable HT? > No they are not SS. There is a web page somewhere that talks about the protocols and operating frequencies. Didn't bookmark it because they are not SS. Search on the product's name with your favorite search engine. Lee W. Fry AA0JP lfry@mindspring.com See my Part 15 Spread Spectrum Device Compendium at: http://www.mindspring.com/~lfry/part15.htm From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Thu Jan 23 08:29:49 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA27555 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:29:28 -0600 (CST) From: wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 08:03:12 UTC Message-Id: <12330@wb9mjn.ampr.org> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:784] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: your message of Fri Jan 03 01:07:07 1997 <3.0.32.19970102230836.00697be8@netcom16.netcom.com> Hi Bob, I would think that the problem you have, trying to do TCPIP with Free- wave, ie RS-232 port, is similar to the problem I had setting up TCPIP from Windows 95, thru to a 9600 baud 440 radio, with KISS Tnc. In the end, I followed the suggestions of several people to set up an ethernet between the W95 box, and a bare bones Dos/NOS computer. The Radio link is on the Dos/NOS box, and ethernet'd over to the Windows 95 system, using NOS as the software to make it all happen in the Dos computer. This way, the Windows standard applications can now talk thru Ham Radio. Whatever that application may be. I tried dial up networking. I tried Etherax. Neither worked with Windows 95 right off the bat. On this point, due to the popularity of W95, and lack of RS-232 networking, there might be a product oppertunity. Unless, W95-97 has fixed this glaring hole in W95 networking, and added SLIP, or "heaven be praised" KISS. Like Linux has had for years. The product would be a Ethernet in, multiple RS-232 out Dos computer, paired down to minimul board, and maybe a floppy, with 2 megs of memory (if that). That is, something not very high performance, say 200 Kb on each port , FDX, and as cheap as possible, with preinstalled, or floppy bootable NOS. 73, Don. Mailbox : WB9MJN @ N9HSI.IL.USA.NA AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu From wa4dsy@wa4dsy.radio.org Thu Jan 23 09:40:00 1997 Received: from wa4mei.radio.org (wa4mei.radio.org [206.28.192.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA00423 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 09:39:57 -0600 (CST) Received: by wa4mei.radio.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.8) id ; Thu, 23 Jan 97 10:39 EST Message-Id: From: "Dale Heatherington" To: "ss@tapr.org" Date: Thu, 23 Jan 97 10:39:47 Reply-To: "Dale Heatherington" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Dale Heatherington's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SS:878] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 08:36:13 -0600 (CST), wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > On this point, due to the popularity of W95, and lack of RS-232 networking, >there might be a product oppertunity. Unless, W95-97 has fixed this glaring >hole in W95 networking, and added SLIP, or "heaven be praised" KISS. Like >Linux has had for years. I'd like to point out that OS/2 Warp's native tcpip has slip. It can be configured to work full time on the serial port without using the dialer. It also has most of the unix networking tools like netstat, ftp, telnet, host, whois, traceroute etc. It's superior to windoze 95 in most other areas as well. It's also cheaper and comes with a lot more "goodies". The popularity of win95 remains a mystery. -------------------------------------------------- Dale Heatherington, WA4DSY e-mail - wa4dsy@wa4dsy.radio.org e-mail - daheath@ibm.net (in case the first one doesn't work) Web page - http://www.wa4dsy.radio.org OS/2 Warp 4.0 The worlds finest desktop OS. From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jan 23 10:13:03 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-017.wwa.com [206.222.42.18]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA01769 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:52 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA19009; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:01 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:12:00 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:878] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: <12330@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > Hi Bob, > > I would think that the problem you have, trying to do TCPIP with Free- > wave, ie RS-232 port, is similar to the problem I had setting up TCPIP from > Windows 95, thru to a 9600 baud 440 radio, with KISS Tnc. > > In the end, I followed the suggestions of several people to set up an > ethernet between the W95 box, and a bare bones Dos/NOS computer. The Radio > link is on the Dos/NOS box, and ethernet'd over to the Windows 95 system, > using NOS as the software to make it all happen in the Dos computer. > You could also use Linux for the second box. When I tried the "beta" AX.25 code way back when (over a year ago) it seemed to work fine. > This way, the Windows standard applications can now talk thru Ham Radio. > Whatever that application may be. > > I tried dial up networking. I tried Etherax. Neither worked with Windows > 95 right off the bat. > > On this point, due to the popularity of W95, and lack of RS-232 networking, > there might be a product oppertunity. Unless, W95-97 has fixed this glaring > hole in W95 networking, and added SLIP, or "heaven be praised" KISS. Like > Linux has had for years. The product would be a Ethernet in, multiple RS-232 > out Dos computer, paired down to minimul board, and maybe a floppy, with 2 > megs of memory (if that). That is, something not very high performance, say > 200 Kb on each port , FDX, and as cheap as possible, with preinstalled, or > floppy bootable NOS. Actually I often thought a good "Next Generation" TNC should be a mini-router, basically what Don described above. Maybe with higher performance serial ports... but the ethernet in is a good idea. Especially with higher speed modem and data, even the 16C550 UARTs get bogged down because of the multitudes of interrupts they generate. Hmm-- a card like the Ottawa card and a couple of the Motorola DSPs cofigured in different modem configs would make one helluva neat multiport packet setup. Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a really high-performance box at almost no cost.. Oh, well if only I had the time to do something like this.....:( Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org From hwm@netcom.com Thu Jan 23 12:18:24 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom19.netcom.com [192.100.81.132]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA08387 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:18:09 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id KAA00278; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:17:54 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 10:11:11 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RE: [SS:880] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Cc: "Fred M. Spinner" >Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a >really high-performance box at almost no cost.. It is now possible to embed linux in rom to provide a very elegant router solution with wide protcol support. For some time I have lusted for a ethernet in tnc with a couple of modem headers. E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini / wd6dod Date: 23-Jan-97 Time: 10:11:15 _____________________________XF-Mail From strohs@halcyon.com Thu Jan 23 14:03:08 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id OAA12673 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:03:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from chinook.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA10955; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:02:43 -0800 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 12:03:03 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:881] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Bob Lorenzini wrote: > >Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a > >really high-performance box at almost no cost.. > > It is now possible to embed linux in rom to provide a very elegant router > solution with wide protcol support. For some time I have lusted for a ethernet > in tnc with a couple of modem headers. I've asked about this on ss and tcp-group lists, and there are lots of "Yes, it is possible to embed Linux in ROM (or put it on a single floppy disk) to make an IP router", no one came forward with an example of anyone who WOULD or who HAS done this. It seems more myth than fact at the moment. Steve -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From hwm@netcom.com Thu Jan 23 17:12:54 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom19.netcom.com [192.100.81.132]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA23896 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:12:41 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id OAA01084; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:51:27 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 14:04:06 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RE: [SS:882] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Cc: Steve Stroh On 23-Jan-97 Steve Stroh wrote: > >I've asked about this on ss and tcp-group lists, and there are lots of >"Yes, it is possible to embed Linux in ROM (or put it on a single floppy >disk) to make an IP router", no one came forward with an example of anyone >who WOULD or who HAS done this. It seems more myth than fact at the >moment. > Steve, in the Jan. issue of "Linux Journl" is an article on how Boeing Flight Test put together a single board 486 without HD that loads and executes linux from eprom. The application was an operator interface for a monitor and display system. The article gives step by step instructions on how this was accomplished as well as a listing of modified source code. The latest development kernels now have what is called "rom filesystem support". I quote here in part from the doc's: "As the name suggests, romfs could be also used (space-efficiently) on various read-only medias, like (E)EPROM disks if someone will have the motivation.. :) However, the main purpose of romfs is to have a very small kernel, which has only this filesystem linked in, and then can load any module later, with the current module utilities. It can also be used to run some program to decide if you need SCSI devices, and even IDE or floppy drives can be loaded later if you use the "initrd" -- initial ram disk -- feature of the kernel. This would not be really news flash, but with romfs, you can even spare off your ext2 or minix or maybe even affs filesystem until you really know that you need it." I use a similar technique that boots and loads a complete linux filesystem into ram off of two floppies for rescue/restore purposes. After booting off floppies only, I can mount the HD in my laptop by hand and restore either linux or windog95 partitions from scratch using a dat tape on a pcmcia scsi controller. I'am not that gifted when it comes to computers but I know I could put together in a few minutes a bootable 2 floppy set that would act as an ax25 router. A one disk solution might be beyond my ability but I believe is doable. Linux has in the kernel, support for Metricom, WaveLAN, DEC RoamAbout, WIC Radio IP bridge as well as AX25, netrom, BPQ, Ottawa PI, ROSE and others as well as all the common and not so common IP protocols. Sorry if I carried this somewhat offtopic subject too far but I believe this is very doable project. We linux users tend to get carried away and I know it tends to put people off as that attitude did me when I was first exposed to the "converts". Bob E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini / wd6dod Date: 23-Jan-97 Time: 14:04:09 _____________________________XF-Mail From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jan 23 17:23:10 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-017.wwa.com [206.222.42.18]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id RAA24486 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:23:03 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id RAA20278; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:22:11 -0600 Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 17:22:10 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:882] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Steve Stroh wrote: > > On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Bob Lorenzini wrote: > > > >Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a > > >really high-performance box at almost no cost.. > > > > It is now possible to embed linux in rom to provide a very elegant router > > solution with wide protcol support. For some time I have lusted for a ethernet > > in tnc with a couple of modem headers. > > I've asked about this on ss and tcp-group lists, and there are lots of > "Yes, it is possible to embed Linux in ROM (or put it on a single floppy > disk) to make an IP router", no one came forward with an example of anyone > who WOULD or who HAS done this. It seems more myth than fact at the > moment. Well... it really doesn't matter... you could get a 100mb IDE for asking at a lot of places, or $50 if you need to buy. You in fact could do a working Linux in that amount of space! Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org From ssampson@oklahoma.net Thu Jan 23 19:05:32 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id TAA29483 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:05:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA25637; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:09:52 -0600 Message-Id: <199701240109.TAA25637@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:880] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:04:40 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > From: Fred M. Spinner > To: ss@tapr.org > Subject: [SS:880] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? > Date: Thursday, January 23, 1997 10:18 AM > > On Thu, 23 Jan 1997 wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > > > > Hi Bob, > > > > I would think that the problem you have, trying to do TCPIP with Free- > > wave, ie RS-232 port, is similar to the problem I had setting up TCPIP from > > Windows 95, thru to a 9600 baud 440 radio, with KISS Tnc. > > > > In the end, I followed the suggestions of several people to set up an > > ethernet between the W95 box, and a bare bones Dos/NOS computer. The Radio > > link is on the Dos/NOS box, and ethernet'd over to the Windows 95 system, > > using NOS as the software to make it all happen in the Dos computer. > > > You could also use Linux for the second box. When I tried the "beta" AX.25 > code way back when (over a year ago) it seemed to work fine. That's an option for 8 Meg or greater machines. NOS works fine in an old 1 Meg or 2 Meg machine. I run mine in 4 Meg, but I like to shell out and do various non-NOS things. Can't shell out in less than 4 Meg. I had Linux running in 4 Meg. It isn't pretty, but it'll work if you can't find a copy of MS/PC-DOS lying around... I find that JNOS is defective in its ethernet handling however. Not everything comes back to the socket, and some stuff goes to the remote machines screen. Nothing critical. As a simple router and mail gatway it is very cost effective. Steve From ssampson@oklahoma.net Thu Jan 23 19:09:34 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id TAA29600 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:09:32 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id TAA25961; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:13:53 -0600 Message-Id: <199701240113.TAA25961@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:882] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 19:08:42 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Absolutely. Someones working on it, but it won't be done this year, and maybe never. :-) Two years ago several people said they could put Linux on a floppy for a router. Must be written in machine language, as it sure is taking a long time :-) Meanwhile JNOS and older freeware routers are available now. ---------- > From: Steve Stroh > To: ss@tapr.org > Subject: [SS:882] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? > Date: Thursday, January 23, 1997 2:08 PM > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Bob Lorenzini wrote: > > > >Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a > > >really high-performance box at almost no cost.. > > > > It is now possible to embed linux in rom to provide a very elegant router > > solution with wide protcol support. For some time I have lusted for a ethernet > > in tnc with a couple of modem headers. > > I've asked about this on ss and tcp-group lists, and there are lots of > "Yes, it is possible to embed Linux in ROM (or put it on a single floppy > disk) to make an IP router", no one came forward with an example of anyone > who WOULD or who HAS done this. It seems more myth than fact at the > moment. > > > Steve > > -- > Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From jerryn@ici.net Thu Jan 23 21:27:29 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA06739 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:27:28 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-49.ici.net [207.180.10.58]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id WAA23462 for ; Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:23:38 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32E829DD.722C6727@ici.net> Date: Thu, 23 Jan 1997 22:17:49 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:886] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <199701240113.TAA25961@dns.okc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin Writes: HOLD ON! What have you been smoking? I'm an engineer... I never got my ticket because I disagree with not being able to order a pizza from my 2 meter radio and all the legal restrictions that they put on us.... I have been using Linux to route remote buildings by wireless to our internet backbone for over 6 months now. Linux supports Multipoint... HECK you can never get an unix operating system on a floppy! My Wireless Routers have 1GB each. PLUS they have 16MB of ram. I have two Ethernet Segments on the wireless routers. One is the 10BaseT the other is the Wireless NEC WAVELAN. I am running the Linux_Mobile.router code put out by the folks at MIT. This code can handle both fixed and mobile stations. It can track the routes it should take according to signal strength much like a cellular network. Data is routed the good old ETHERNET fashion. It doesen't digipeat, it goes from station to station and bangs off each one. Picture this static ip mappng scenarion for simplicity's sake Destination is a workstation on a remote3 ethernet scenario... it goes from CentralNET TO WirelessR1 to Wireless2 to Wireless3 and then to ethernet segment remote3. NOTE the static mapping information needs to be entered for each connection... or... you can use RIP like I do. The rip Deamon will make entries for you. It works for me :) I have two buildings and a van connected :) NOTE: Lucent technolodies changed the MAC address on the cards so the standard Linux driver won'd run... I modified my drivers code to wrok with my WaveLAN cards from Lucent. YOU CAN"T PULL THIS OFF WITH A MICROSLOTH OPERATING SYSTEM! YOU NEED UIX or LINUX or FreeBSD! Steve Sampson wrote: > > Absolutely. Someones working on it, but it won't be done this year, > and maybe never. :-) Two years ago several people said they could > put Linux on a floppy for a router. Must be written in machine language, > as it sure is taking a long time :-) > > Meanwhile JNOS and older freeware routers are available now. > > ---------- > > From: Steve Stroh > > To: ss@tapr.org > > Subject: [SS:882] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? > > Date: Thursday, January 23, 1997 2:08 PM > > > > > > On Thu, 23 Jan 1997, Bob Lorenzini wrote: > > > > > >Using a scrap 386 or 486 and say Linux to do this would give you a > > > >really high-performance box at almost no cost.. > > > > > > It is now possible to embed linux in rom to provide a very elegant router > > > solution with wide protcol support. For some time I have lusted for a ethernet > > > in tnc with a couple of modem headers. > > > > I've asked about this on ss and tcp-group lists, and there are lots of > > "Yes, it is possible to embed Linux in ROM (or put it on a single floppy > > disk) to make an IP router", no one came forward with an example of anyone > > who WOULD or who HAS done this. It seems more myth than fact at the > > moment. > > > > > > Steve > > > > -- > > Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Fri Jan 24 07:40:42 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id HAA04277 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 07:40:34 -0600 (CST) From: wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Date: Fri, 24 Jan 97 07:17:02 UTC Message-Id: <12350@wb9mjn.ampr.org> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:885] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-Reply-To: your message of Thu Jan 23 19:12:38 1997 <199701240109.TAA25637@dns.okc> Hi everybody! Maybe that s why it hasn t been done yet. A surplus 1 meg 386 will do it, for low cost, and the people who can throw that together are the only people who really want it. Forgot about the mail server requirements. Oops. W95 has no mail servers in it, that i can tell. Just Mail clients, and so far i ve only found a PPP XXX Pop mail client. So, the NOS needs to do the Pop mail server as well. Altho, one could get by without a harddrive, with this additional requirement, it sure would be nice. I ve yet to start up the Pop server here in the NOS, and just do mail by logging into the NOS on the DOS/Nos box. So, Anybody considering this has gotta compete against all the junk boxes in the US and Europe. Which is very tuff to do with new equipment. 73, Don. Mailbox : WB9MJN @ N9HSI.IL.USA.NA AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu From jeff@mich.com Fri Jan 24 10:15:39 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA09531 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:15:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA09874 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:11:32 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970124161535.006d1178@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 11:15:35 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS:888] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? At 07:47 AM 1/24/97 -0600, wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > Forgot about the mail server requirements. Oops. W95 has no mail servers >in it, that i can tell. Just Mail clients, and so far i ve only found a PPP >XXX Pop mail client. So, the NOS needs to do the Pop mail server as well. > > Don: Check out http://www.tucows.com. Lots of WIN95 servers there including SMTP, FTP, HTTPD, POP3, etc... About the only thing I haven't found is a WIN95 router that supports networks. Regards, ------------------------------------ | Jeff King Aero Data Systems | | jeff@mich.com P.O. Box 9325 | | (810)471-1787 Livonia, MI 48151 | |F(810)471-0279 United States | ------------------------------------ From fred@tekdata.com Fri Jan 24 12:04:29 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool11-006.wwa.com [206.222.42.39]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id MAA15333 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 12:04:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id KAA21546; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:12:13 -0600 Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 10:12:13 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: Linux as router In-Reply-To: <12350@wb9mjn.ampr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > Hi everybody! > > Maybe that s why it hasn t been done yet. A surplus 1 meg 386 will do it, > for low cost, and the people who can throw that together are the only people > who really want it. God, I am a troublemaker! :) I suggested Linux (or FreeBSD) to do this because it is really versitile, and will run on a old crap 386. It can support much more then NOS, has every server in it that you'd want to run, is free and fast. If you want to run a 8088 and 640k of ram -- use NOS... geeze... P.S. someone called Windows 95 "Windog95" -- I think thats an insult to dogs.. P.P.S. If someone needs old crap equipment.. e-mail me .. I have plenty Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org From jerryn@ici.net Fri Jan 24 14:18:49 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA20629 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 14:18:47 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id PAA27930 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:15:00 -0500 (EST) Received: from nelix (localhost.ici.net [127.0.0.1]) by nelix.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id PAA07306 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:14:27 -0500 (EST) Sender: develop@ici.net Message-ID: <32E91821.167EB0E7@ici.net> Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 15:14:25 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:890] Re: Linux as router References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred M. Spinner wrote: > > On Fri, 24 Jan 1997 wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > > > > Hi everybody! > > > > Maybe that s why it hasn t been done yet. A surplus 1 meg 386 will do it, > > for low cost, and the people who can throw that together are the only people > > who really want it. > > God, I am a troublemaker! :) > > I suggested Linux (or FreeBSD) to do this because it is really versitile, > and will run on a old crap 386. It can support much more then NOS, has > every server in it that you'd want to run, is free and fast. > > If you want to run a 8088 and 640k of ram -- use NOS... > > geeze... > > P.S. someone called Windows 95 "Windog95" -- I think thats an insult > to dogs.. > > P.P.S. If someone needs old crap equipment.. e-mail me .. I have plenty > > Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW > fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@amsat.org I have an FCC Legal wireless infrastructure up with NECWAVELAN cards operating in the 902-925 range. I use Linux! The wireless Linux routers are attached to a swiched hub that is attached to a Cisco 4100 and that's attached to the MCI & SPRINT backbone. You can't get rocking performance on an old 386. I have four Pentium 100 machines as wireles routers talking. They are running the LinuxMobileIP router code from MIT. I would attach the code here but last time I did the moderator complained so... just use lycos or yahoo and you will find it! All I can say is it even routes mobile! You can get 3 miles on a watt of power. I've created a cellular style cluster with these radios. Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From jkoster@tenet.edu Fri Jan 24 16:58:18 1997 Received: from gaston.tenet.edu (jkoster@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id QAA27943 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:58:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jkoster@localhost) by gaston.tenet.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id QAA08248; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:58:02 -0600 (CST) Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 16:57:56 -0600 (CST) From: John Koster To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:890] Re: Linux as router In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Fri, 24 Jan 1997, Fred M. Spinner wrote: > > geeze... > > P.S. someone called Windows 95 "Windog95" -- I think thats an insult > to dogs.. Yes, I agree, I would never say about my golden retreiver, what I've said about WIN95. > > P.P.S. If someone needs old crap equipment.. e-mail me .. I have plenty > Gee, we could start a thread about my old junk is older than your old junk, but lets not. :-) John, w9ddd@tapr.org From njf@lissos.tsinet.gr Sat Jan 25 04:59:39 1997 Received: from lissos (lissos.tsinet.gr [143.233.180.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id EAA02435 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 04:59:23 -0600 (CST) Received: from lissos by lissos (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id NAA00465; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:00:04 -0200 Sender: njf@tsinet.gr Message-ID: <32EA1FF1.72EF@lissos.tsinet.gr> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:00:02 -0200 From: "NIKOS J. FARSARIS" Organization: TELECOMMUNICATION SYSTEMS INSTITUTE X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0 (X11; I; SunOS 5.4 sun4m) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:890] Re: Linux as router References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Fred M. Spinner wrote: > > P.S. someone called Windows 95 "Windog95" -- I think thats an insult > to dogs.. Its a definite insult to dogs! "wildcat" characters and "cat" unix command is an insult to cats too !! -- NIKOS J. FARSARIS, Dipl. Elec. Eng., Ph.D. Candidate A.U.TH. RADAR / RF Research,TELECOMMUNICATION SYSTEMS INSTITUTE OF CRETE (T.S.I.) 37 Iroon Polytechneiou Ave,73133 CHANIA CRETE GREECE Tel: 30-821-28457/28423 Fax: 28459 E-mail: njf@tsinet.gr, njf@ee.auth.gr From dkelly@hiwaay.net Sat Jan 25 13:14:04 1997 Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (max1-86.HiWAAY.net [208.147.145.86]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA23986 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:14:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from nexgen.HiWAAY.net (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by nexgen.HiWAAY.net (8.7.6/8.7.3) with ESMTP id SAA07655 for ; Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:34:44 -0600 (CST) Message-Id: <199701250034.SAA07655@nexgen.HiWAAY.net> X-Mailer: exmh version 1.6.9 8/22/96 To: ss@tapr.org From: dkelly@hiwaay.net Subject: Re: [SS:887] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? In-reply-to: Message from Jerry Normandin of "Thu, 23 Jan 1997 21:27:53 CST." <32E829DD.722C6727@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Date: Fri, 24 Jan 1997 18:34:44 -0600 Sender: dkelly@nexgen.HiWAAY.net Jerry Normandin Writes: > > HOLD ON! What have you been smoking? I'm an engineer... I never > got my ticket because I disagree with not being able to order a pizza > from my 2 meter radio and all the legal restrictions that they put on > us.... > > I have been using Linux to route remote buildings by wireless to > our internet backbone for over 6 months now. Linux supports > Multipoint... HECK you can never get an unix operating system > on a floppy! I'm an engineer too. And I learned in the 5th grade, "Never say never because never is never right." FreeBSD installs from a single 1.2M floppy image. It has enough of the system to 1) partition your hard disk(s), 2) establish a SL/IP or PPP connection out your modem, or direct thru an ethernet card. 3) Network system installation may be by either ftp or NFS. Or you can install off a DOS filesystem, or a CDROM. Given this example I'd say the only reason there is not a Unix-like single floppy PC-based router/OS on a single floppy is because we haven't found the right combination in an idividual that 1) wants it bad enough to do it, 2) has the skills to do it, and 3) has the time to do it. Personally, once you bite the bullet and decide to place PC hardware out there somewhere, a decent HD is a non-issue. I expect most any modern HD to be more reliable than any floppy. And only a few dollars more. 73, -- David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net ===================================================================== The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. From strohs@halcyon.com Sat Jan 25 14:58:27 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id OAA28483 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 14:58:25 -0600 (CST) Received: from coho.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA06964; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:58:04 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 12:58:23 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: ss@tapr.org Subject: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: <199701250034.SAA07655@nexgen.HiWAAY.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > Given this example I'd say the only reason there is not a Unix-like single > floppy PC-based router/OS on a single floppy is because we haven't found > the right combination in an individual that 1) wants it bad enough to do > it, 2) has the skills to do it, and 3) has the time to do it. > > Personally, once you bite the bullet and decide to place PC hardware out > there somewhere, a decent HD is a non-issue. I expect most any modern HD to > be more reliable than any floppy. And only a few dollars more. The issue isn't so much that hard disks are expensive, fragile, etc. but that a single floppy *nix router makes it easy to get it going and put a decent router on the air. Building a working *nix system is certainly doable, but for much of the amateur population (myself included at the moment), *nix is something of a mystery. If I could order up the "*nix floppy from the TAPR Software Library, edit a few config files with callsign, IP address, ports, routes, etc. and then I have a working router, then that's real progress. Equally acceptable would be an automated (very, VERY automated) install of *nix onto a HD to make a router, where only some config files had to be tweaked to get it working. Putting a minimal implementation of *nix on CD-ROM configured as a router would be OK too. There are a lot of situations where a full up *nix system with HD (and the attendant full up OS) isn't appropriate not because of location, cost, reliability, but because of available expertise. What surprises me is that whenever the subject of a 1 floppy *nix IP router is brought up, there's a chorus of "it's easy, works great, sure *nix can do that", but I've not seen any pointers to ANY actual implementations, and I've brought the subject up several times on various lists since last Fall. The debate is not whether it can be done. I'm convinced that it can. The debate is would anyone actually DO at least a preliminary implementation of it so that those of us who've said we could use such a system could actually try it out and make some constructive comments about it. Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From hansen@ICSL.UCLA.EDU Sat Jan 25 15:11:22 1997 Received: from xenon.icsl.ucla.edu (Xenon.ICSL.UCLA.EDU [128.97.90.57]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA29008 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 15:11:21 -0600 (CST) Received: by xenon.icsl.ucla.edu (Sendmail 5.65c/4.02) id AA23618; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:11:12 -0800 Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 13:11:12 -0800 From: hansen@ICSL.UCLA.EDU (Christopher J Hansen) Message-Id: <199701252111.AA23618@xenon.icsl.ucla.edu> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: SS Standard for Amateur Radio How can I get involved in the development of the TAPR SS standard? I have seen emails on this list describing different ideas, but I'm not sure of any organization. Chris Hansen, KQ6DW From jerryn@ici.net Sat Jan 25 17:09:17 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA07840 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:09:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-44.ici.net [207.180.10.53]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA06312 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:05:27 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32EA9060.2BD35FA4@ici.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:59:44 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:894] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? References: <199701250034.SAA07655@nexgen.HiWAAY.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > Jerry Normandin Writes: > > > > HOLD ON! What have you been smoking? I'm an engineer... I never > > got my ticket because I disagree with not being able to order a pizza > > from my 2 meter radio and all the legal restrictions that they put on > > us.... > > > > I have been using Linux to route remote buildings by wireless to > > our internet backbone for over 6 months now. Linux supports > > Multipoint... HECK you can never get an unix operating system > > on a floppy! > > I'm an engineer too. And I learned in the 5th grade, "Never say never > because never is never right." > > FreeBSD installs from a single 1.2M floppy image. It has enough of the > system to 1) partition your hard disk(s), 2) establish a SL/IP or PPP > connection out your modem, or direct thru an ethernet card. 3) Network > system installation may be by either ftp or NFS. Or you can install off a > DOS filesystem, or a CDROM. > > Given this example I'd say the only reason there is not a Unix-like single > floppy PC-based router/OS on a single floppy is because we haven't found > the right combination in an idividual that 1) wants it bad enough to do it, > 2) has the skills to do it, and 3) has the time to do it. > > Personally, once you bite the bullet and decide to place PC hardware out > there somewhere, a decent HD is a non-issue. I expect most any modern HD to > be more reliable than any floppy. And only a few dollars more. > > 73, > -- > David Kelly N4HHE, dkelly@hiwaay.net > ===================================================================== > The human mind ordinarily operates at only ten percent of its > capacity -- the rest is overhead for the operating system. Jerry replies: The linux kernel in itself compressed will fit on a floppy as well. BUT YOU NEED MORE in FreeBSD and LINUX to do Mobile routing! You need the /proc file system up. I can fit everything including OS, router code, and SAVE for the IP mapping, MX records for SENDMAIL, andthe DNS on a 380MB HD! I have everything working now! THE KERNEL is just one part... granted a major part of the operating system. Do you have any clue of how much ram Sendmail consumes? You need to have smtp enabled, and popmail on the mail server. This isn't a simple NOS. It's a complete full blown tcp/ip wireless networking package! It's not just a router... I am using the box for other things. If you are not concerned about a cellular style router for mobile comminications then I guess you can EASILY make some IOS that only runs RIP. I don't run routed right now... I have static routes entered in my route table until I can fully test the IPMobile_Linux code. From jerryn@ici.net Sat Jan 25 17:13:39 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA07986 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 17:13:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-44.ici.net [207.180.10.53]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA06702 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:09:49 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32EA9166.745FC205@ici.net> Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 18:04:06 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:895] *nix on floppy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Stroh wrote: > > On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > > > Given this example I'd say the only reason there is not a Unix-like single > > floppy PC-based router/OS on a single floppy is because we haven't found > > the right combination in an individual that 1) wants it bad enough to do > > it, 2) has the skills to do it, and 3) has the time to do it. > > > > Personally, once you bite the bullet and decide to place PC hardware out > > there somewhere, a decent HD is a non-issue. I expect most any modern HD to > > be more reliable than any floppy. And only a few dollars more. > > The issue isn't so much that hard disks are expensive, fragile, etc. but > that a single floppy *nix router makes it easy to get it going and put a > decent router on the air. Building a working *nix system is certainly > doable, but for much of the amateur population (myself included at the > moment), *nix is something of a mystery. If I could order up the "*nix > floppy from the TAPR Software Library, edit a few config files with > callsign, IP address, ports, routes, etc. and then I have a working > router, then that's real progress. > > Equally acceptable would be an automated (very, VERY automated) install of > *nix onto a HD to make a router, where only some config files had to be > tweaked to get it working. Putting a minimal implementation of *nix on > CD-ROM configured as a router would be OK too. > > There are a lot of situations where a full up *nix system with HD (and the > attendant full up OS) isn't appropriate not because of location, cost, > reliability, but because of available expertise. > > What surprises me is that whenever the subject of a 1 floppy *nix IP > router is brought up, there's a chorus of "it's easy, works great, sure > *nix can do that", but I've not seen any pointers to ANY actual > implementations, and I've brought the subject up several times on various > lists since last Fall. > > The debate is not whether it can be done. I'm convinced that it can. The > debate is would anyone actually DO at least a preliminary implementation > of it so that those of us who've said we could use such a system could > actually try it out and make some constructive comments about it. > > Steve N8GNJ > > -- > Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com Jerry Replies: Just get a book on Unix and study. I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS with running Linux. I have a Linux box connected to the backbone of an ISP and a Linux box located in a remote building that links that building to the internet via wireless. We are also capable of hitting it with a mobile laptop. All authentication is done on our Primary & Secondary Authentication Servers running Radius. Heck It works NOW! I'm not debating wether or not I should make a floppy version. I need a bit more than that to accomplish the task I am doing because the wireless box does more than just route from the wireless segment to the ethernet segment. It does more. From ssampson@oklahoma.net Sat Jan 25 21:24:10 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id VAA19273 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:24:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id VAA12917; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:28:32 -0600 Message-Id: <199701260328.VAA12917@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:898] Re: *nix on floppy Date: Sat, 25 Jan 1997 21:23:21 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Jerry Replies: > > Just get a book on Unix and study. I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS > with running Linux. I have a Linux box connected to the backbone of > an ISP and a Linux box located in a remote building that links that > building to the internet via wireless. Reading this, it sounds like we're headed down the same road that killed packet radio. It sounds like a lot of fun, but what's it for? Packet never progressed beyond keyboard chat and BBS messages. The applications everyone thought about required more bandwidth than available. Packet groups made great strides to create a network, but in the end we couldn't figure out what the network was for. Is the goal to see how many Linux routers we can invent? How about how many Linux routers we can connect in series? Hmm, how about how many Linux boxes we can flow internet data through a radio? I think that digital data and networking are what people think of first in SS, but I'm more interested in voice. With SS you have the bandwidth required for some sophisticated voice and data applications. Many years ago I wrote a (not well received) article on TDMA to replace the repeater. With SS the door is open to develop algorithms to replace the central node paradigm of the repeater, and use low level networking to join individual nodes. Something on the order of 10% that of TCP/IP complexity. Steve From jerryn@ici.net Sat Jan 25 23:20:36 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id XAA24492 for ; Sat, 25 Jan 1997 23:20:35 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-94.ici.net [207.180.10.103]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id AAA16170 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:16:47 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32EAE768.1F73D919@ici.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 00:11:04 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:899] Re: *nix on floppy References: <199701260328.VAA12917@dns.okc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Sampson wrote: > > > Jerry Replies: > > > > Just get a book on Unix and study. I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS > > with running Linux. I have a Linux box connected to the backbone of > > an ISP and a Linux box located in a remote building that links that > > building to the internet via wireless. > > Reading this, it sounds like we're headed down the same road that killed packet radio. > It sounds like a lot of fun, but what's it for? Packet never progressed beyond keyboard > chat and BBS messages. The applications everyone thought about required more > bandwidth than available. Packet groups made great strides to create a network, but > in the end we couldn't figure out what the network was for. > > Is the goal to see how many Linux routers we can invent? How about how many > Linux routers we can connect in series? Hmm, how about how many Linux boxes > we can flow internet data through a radio? > > I think that digital data and networking are what people think of first in SS, but I'm > more interested in voice. With SS you have the bandwidth required for some > sophisticated voice and data applications. Many years ago I wrote a (not well > received) article on TDMA to replace the repeater. With SS the door is open to > develop algorithms to replace the central node paradigm of the repeater, and > use low level networking to join individual nodes. Something on the order of > 10% that of TCP/IP complexity. > > Steve I'm doing voice on Spread Spectrum but the characters in this newsgroup don't want to hear about it. they want a unix on floppy. I told I can't do it because I need more than just the kernel. I use Speak Freely on SS. It works well! From jkoster@tenet.edu Sun Jan 26 08:11:35 1997 Received: from gaston.tenet.edu (jkoster@Gayle-Gaston.tenet.edu [198.213.2.8]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id IAA15876 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:11:34 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jkoster@localhost) by gaston.tenet.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id IAA02077; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:11:32 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 08:11:31 -0600 (CST) From: John Koster To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:900] Re: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: <32EAE768.1F73D919@ici.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: -------- Stuff deleted ------- > > received) article on TDMA to replace the repeater. With SS the door is open to > > develop algorithms to replace the central node paradigm of the repeater, and > > use low level networking to join individual nodes. Something on the order of > > 10% that of TCP/IP complexity. > > > > Steve > I'm doing voice on Spread Spectrum but the characters in this newsgroup > don't want to hear about it. they want a unix on floppy. I told I > can't do it because I need more than just the kernel. > > I use Speak Freely on SS. It works well! Whoa, wait a minute. I thought the mission was to move bits from point A to point B irregardless of what information they represented? Once we get bits flowing out of some connector on the radio, we've made a big step. Since bits R bits, no matter what they represent, some of use have made the assumption (right or wrong?) that they could be routed, processed, etc with some common h/w & s/w as well. Since the internet seems to be an example of where they are able to somewhat successfully move data of all types, TCP/IP has been looked to as a possible way of doing it. *NIX gets more mention from the OS side because there are several flavors where the complete source code is available to those who like to/are able to write code needed to make this stuff work on radio. This means you can pick and choose the parts you need to accomplish your goal and not be bothered by the rest. For example if you don't need a GUI, you don't have to have one taking up space. I suppose anything other than SS radios is off topic here if we were to be fussy about it. But, since we seem to have little discussion about chips sets, PN codes etc. perhaps a little discussion about how the bits are processed outside the radio won't hurt. Perhaps on topic would be what kind of data connector and data format should the radio have? So far the commercial stuff seems to have either ethernet pipes or RS232 (asynchronous at various speeds). Their choice seems to be related to the speed the radio can move data. Considering how inexpensive ethernet cards and chips set are, and how overloaded the COMM ports are typically on a PC, I'd tend to favor ethernet even on the slower radios. And what are some of the other ways to move data to/from/between radios besides *NIX and TCP/IP? Inquiring minds are interested. John, W9DDD From strohs@halcyon.com Sun Jan 26 09:49:39 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id JAA20820 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:49:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from chinook.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA25693; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:49:17 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 07:49:36 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:898] Re: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: <32EA9166.745FC205@ici.net> Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII (This discussion is somewhat relevant to SS- it involves what happens when lots of SS radios start showing up in the hands of average hams and they want to run their Win95 boxes with them? My guess is that they'll need a simple IP router of some kind. Hence the *nix on floppy discussion. I'm assuming that Amateur SS radios, at least initially, won't come with much networking and IP built in. If they did, this discussion would be moot.) On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > Just get a book on Unix and study. I am. That's an appropriate answer specifically for me. It's not an appropriate answer for hundreds/thousands of hams who would rather communicate and use the equipment than understand its innermost workings. Appliance operators are here- that's fact. If there isn't some easy way for them to network IP, then the Net/ROM crowd will fill the void . > I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS with running Linux. Glad to hear it- sounds like you're having lots of fun with your system. I don't to either once I get up to speed on it. It's just another OS that I haven't had much experience with yet. I'm trying to speak for the hundreds/thousands of users of Amateur SS radios who aren't going to want to bother with a full up Linux box, but could make good of use of an old beater PC as an IP router by sticking in "*nix on a floppy", editing some parameters as mentioned previously, and they're up an running with their SS radio and their Win95 PC both plugged into the *nix PC. Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From ssampson@oklahoma.net Sun Jan 26 10:21:03 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA22604 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:21:00 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA09215; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:25:25 -0600 Message-Id: <199701261625.KAA09215@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:901] Re: *nix on floppy Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:20:02 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > Whoa, wait a minute. I thought the mission was to move bits from point > A to point B irregardless of what information they represented? There's no mission :-) I don't think anyone has decided that the data pipe must carry every conceivable appliance through it (Re: tcp/ip). By the way, there was a program on TV where this company big-wig was showing the reporter how every refridge and oven would have an IP address. You could use your web browser to monitor the kitchen. ho ho.. Talk about overkill, my Grandma is rolling in her grave... > Once we get bits flowing out of some connector on the radio, we've made a big > step. Since bits R bits, no matter what they represent, some of use have > made the assumption (right or wrong?) that they could be routed, > processed, etc with some common h/w & s/w as well. Since the internet > seems to be an example of where they are able to somewhat successfully > move data of all types, TCP/IP has been looked to as a possible way of > doing it. Well, a Rolls Royce seems to be an example of a car, but does it really do anything more than a Triumph Spitfire? > I suppose anything other than SS radios is off topic here if we were to be > fussy about it. But, since we seem to have little discussion about chips > sets, PN codes etc. perhaps a little discussion about how the bits are > processed outside the radio won't hurt. Perhaps on topic would be what > kind of data connector and data format should the radio have? So far the > commercial stuff seems to have either ethernet pipes or RS232 > (asynchronous at various speeds). Their choice seems to be related to the > speed the radio can move data. Considering how inexpensive ethernet > cards and chips set are, and how overloaded the COMM ports are typically > on a PC, I'd tend to favor ethernet even on the slower radios. I guess one way to do this then, is to use your standard talkie and hook your home radio up to an audio card and send it over the internet. I can do that now without spread spectrum?? I don't want any connector. I want to hold it in my hand. Let the base unit have a serial connector. After all, most SS stuff is serial based, or card based. Ethernet is good for a black box connected to the home LAN. > And what are some of the other ways to move data to/from/between radios > besides UNIX and TCP/IP? Inquiring minds are interested. Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar did an interesting series of articles on home networks. This network used twisted pair and interfaced to the BSR line of lamp controllers, thermostats, fire alarms, etc. I think someone actually proded them to use TCP/IP, but in the end, a simple protocol was developed. One that could fit on a microcontroller, and not require a 1.6 Gig drive or a Pentium Pro :-) It works fine on an 8031 or 80C32 etc. Picture a cell of Amateurs throughout the city. How does each node find all the other nodes (protocol 1 required). How does each node get to the other node (protocol 2 required). How is the voice digitized and compressed (protocol 3 required). I don't think UDP or TCP is a good option here. I don't think IP is a good option, we can't really expect 4 Billion nodes can we? Let's say maybe 256 people can use one channel. That should only take up 8 bits of address instead of 32 bits, and can even be selected randomly as nodes come online at each radio. I like the simple protocols for simple problems. You can always interface one to the other at some base unit. Steve From rparry@qualcomm.com Sun Jan 26 11:35:13 1997 Received: from fantasia.qualcomm.com (fantasia.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.12]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA26939 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 11:35:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from [129.46.92.34] ([129.46.92.34]) by fantasia.qualcomm.com (8.8.4/1.4f/8.7.2/1.12) with ESMTP id JAA04393 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:34:40 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rparry@nala.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: References: <32EA9166.745FC205@ici.net> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 09:34:46 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Richard Parry Subject: Re: [SS:902] Re: *nix on floppy Sorry, please tell me with "nix" is? >(This discussion is somewhat relevant to SS- it involves what happens when >lots of SS radios start showing up in the hands of average hams and they >want to run their Win95 boxes with them? My guess is that they'll need a >simple IP router of some kind. Hence the *nix on floppy discussion. I'm >assuming that Amateur SS radios, at least initially, won't come with much >networking and IP built in. If they did, this discussion would be moot.) > >On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > >> Just get a book on Unix and study. > >I am. That's an appropriate answer specifically for me. It's not an >appropriate answer for hundreds/thousands of hams who would rather >communicate and use the equipment than understand its innermost workings. >Appliance operators are here- that's fact. If there isn't some easy way >for them to network IP, then the Net/ROM crowd will fill the void >. > >> I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS with running Linux. > >Glad to hear it- sounds like you're having lots of fun with your system. >I don't to either once I get up to speed on it. It's just another OS that >I haven't had much experience with yet. > >I'm trying to speak for the hundreds/thousands of users of Amateur SS >radios who aren't going to want to bother with a full up Linux box, but >could make good of use of an old beater PC as an IP router by sticking in >"*nix on a floppy", editing some parameters as mentioned previously, and >they're up an running with their SS radio and their Win95 PC both plugged >into the *nix PC. > >Steve N8GNJ > >-- >Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com --------------- Richard Parry, P.E., W9IF - Ext 8-4972, Office R-307B Qualcomm, Inc. Globalstar/Gateway Reverse Link Intranet --> Internet --> AX.25 --> W9IF@K6JCC.#SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM --------------- From jerryn@ici.net Sun Jan 26 12:26:08 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA29234 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 12:26:07 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-56.ici.net [207.180.10.65]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id NAA06731 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:21:42 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32EB9F59.59DDCC14@ici.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:15:53 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:902] Re: *nix on floppy References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin replies: I don't run a Microsloth OS! I am running Linux as my operating system. Despite what many "Follow the flock" PC users thing there are drivers for just about everything out there for Linux. My HP855C, My HP Scanjet IIcx, the Matrix Millenium Video Card w/4MB RAM.. Plus the software out there is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I can run weather models and produce results similar to what the people at NOAA generate because thier software is on the net and it compiles cleanly for Linux. It's a graphic program and runs under X windows. The speach recognition software is very accurate. The Net Tools are industrial strenght. PLUS.. the tools the average PC user needs such as destop publishing software, spreadsheet, games... they are all plentiful. I would think it's an OS that HAMS would enjoy learning! ANY WHY NOT BASE THE AMATURE WIRELESS INFRASTRUCTURE ON IT? I'LL TELL YOU WHY, THE ARRL and OTHERS HAVE THIER HAND IN THE POCKETS OF OTHER AMATURE RADIO COMPANIES. WITH LINUX THERE IS NO NEED FOR A TNC! NO NEED for some $2,300.00 router... heck the router can run in the background on your Linux Workstation. Steve Stroh wrote: > > (This discussion is somewhat relevant to SS- it involves what happens when > lots of SS radios start showing up in the hands of average hams and they > want to run their Win95 boxes with them? My guess is that they'll need a > simple IP router of some kind. Hence the *nix on floppy discussion. I'm > assuming that Amateur SS radios, at least initially, won't come with much > networking and IP built in. If they did, this discussion would be moot.) > > On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > > > Just get a book on Unix and study. > > I am. That's an appropriate answer specifically for me. It's not an > appropriate answer for hundreds/thousands of hams who would rather > communicate and use the equipment than understand its innermost workings. > Appliance operators are here- that's fact. If there isn't some easy way > for them to network IP, then the Net/ROM crowd will fill the void > . > > > I have absolutely NO PROBLEMS with running Linux. > > Glad to hear it- sounds like you're having lots of fun with your system. > I don't to either once I get up to speed on it. It's just another OS that > I haven't had much experience with yet. > > I'm trying to speak for the hundreds/thousands of users of Amateur SS > radios who aren't going to want to bother with a full up Linux box, but > could make good of use of an old beater PC as an IP router by sticking in > "*nix on a floppy", editing some parameters as mentioned previously, and > they're up an running with their SS radio and their Win95 PC both plugged > into the *nix PC. > > Steve N8GNJ > > -- > Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From wa4dsy@wa4dsy.radio.org Sun Jan 26 13:30:47 1997 Received: from wa4mei.radio.org (wa4mei.radio.org [206.28.192.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id NAA02315 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:30:45 -0600 (CST) Received: by wa4mei.radio.org (/\==/\ Smail3.1.28.1 #28.8) id ; Sun, 26 Jan 97 14:30 EST Message-Id: From: "Dale Heatherington" To: "ss@tapr.org" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 97 14:30:37 Reply-To: "Dale Heatherington" Priority: Normal X-Mailer: Dale Heatherington's Registered PMMail 1.53 For OS/2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [SS:903] Re: *nix on floppy On Sun, 26 Jan 1997 10:22:15 -0600 (CST), Steve Sampson wrote: >> Whoa, wait a minute. I thought the mission was to move bits from point >> A to point B irregardless of what information they represented? > >There's no mission :-) I don't think anyone has decided that the data pipe >must carry every conceivable appliance through it (Re: tcp/ip). By the way, >there was a program on TV where this company big-wig was showing the >reporter how every refridge and oven would have an IP address. You could >use your web browser to monitor the kitchen. ho ho.. Talk about overkill, >my Grandma is rolling in her grave... TCPIP is quite scaleable. I'm rolling my own home control/monitoring system using Z80s and Z8s. The protocol is UDP/IP. This is quite simple using less than 1K of code for the comm stuff. Any device on the system can be "pinged" from any regular tcpip machine with access to the home control subnet. The UDP protocol is connectionless and very simple to impliment. TCP is much more complex but not required this application. I think the concept of a universal protocol which runs on everything from toasters to multimedia web servers is quite appealing. A tcpip tnc shouldn't be too hard to do either. There's a web server running on a single board x86 rom based computer at http://smallest.pharlap.com/ It's 3.6x3.8inches in size and is hooked to weather instruments. My $.02 -------------------------------------------------- Dale Heatherington, WA4DSY e-mail - wa4dsy@wa4dsy.radio.org e-mail - daheath@ibm.net (in case the first one doesn't work) Web page - http://www.wa4dsy.radio.org OS/2 Warp 4.0 The worlds finest desktop OS. From jerryn@ici.net Sun Jan 26 13:56:52 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA03687 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:56:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from nomad (d-ma-fallriver-56.ici.net [207.180.10.65]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA17654 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:53:04 -0500 (EST) Sender: root@uhura.ici.net Message-ID: <32EBB4CC.5E92F24D@ici.net> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:47:24 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01Gold (X11; I; Linux 2.0.26 i486) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:903] Re: *nix on floppy Nope... need 1.GB HD. References: <199701261625.KAA09215@dns.okc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin Replies to all: the Linux Mobile IP protocol is WORKING FOR ME!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And it works well! http://anchor.cs.binghamton.edu/~mobileip/ From jkoster@tenet.edu Sun Jan 26 14:14:54 1997 Received: from Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (jkoster@Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu [198.213.2.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA04583 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:14:51 -0600 (CST) Received: (from jkoster@localhost) by Joyce-Perkins.tenet.edu (8.7.6/8.7.3) id OAA16620; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:14:42 -0600 (CST) Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 14:14:41 -0600 (CST) From: John Koster To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:903] Re: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: <199701261625.KAA09215@dns.okc> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Steve Sampson wrote: > > Whoa, wait a minute. I thought the mission was to move bits from point > > A to point B irregardless of what information they represented? > > There's no mission :-) I don't think anyone has decided that the data pipe > must carry every conceivable appliance through it (Re: tcp/ip). The development stage radios should be transparent. Later as things progress, if someone wants to glue some specific application to it and integrate the whole thing in one package fine and dandy. > > > Once we get bits flowing out of some connector on the radio, we've made a big > > step. Since bits R bits, no matter what they represent, some of use have > > made the assumption (right or wrong?) that they could be routed, > > processed, etc with some common h/w & s/w as well. Since the internet > > seems to be an example of where they are able to somewhat successfully > > move data of all types, TCP/IP has been looked to as a possible way of > > doing it. > > Well, a Rolls Royce seems to be an example of a car, but does it really do > anything more than a Triumph Spitfire? Well, since most of us have a limited amount of time, we'd like to make use of something that already exists until we get the SS side of things going good. Using TCP/IP at some level of a system does not require that it be used everywhere. I work with systems that use 3 different protocols at different levels of the system. The lowest level being an asynch polled LAN which could be compared to talking KISS to multiple TNCs. At the next level up it uses token passing SDLC. At the highest level, it can use TCP/IP, Netware, NetBIOS, etc. > > > I suppose anything other than SS radios is off topic here if we were to be > > fussy about it. But, since we seem to have little discussion about chips > > sets, PN codes etc. perhaps a little discussion about how the bits are > > processed outside the radio won't hurt. Perhaps on topic would be what > > kind of data connector and data format should the radio have? So far the > > commercial stuff seems to have either ethernet pipes or RS232 > > (asynchronous at various speeds). Their choice seems to be related to the > > speed the radio can move data. Considering how inexpensive ethernet > > cards and chips set are, and how overloaded the COMM ports are typically > > on a PC, I'd tend to favor ethernet even on the slower radios. > > I guess one way to do this then, is to use your standard talkie and hook your > home radio up to an audio card and send it over the internet. I can do that now > without spread spectrum?? Not sure what your point is here. I'm not really interested in sending anything over the internet per se, what I am interested in doing is not re-inventing the wheel. 'Steal' anything we can, but realize to make it work on radio it will take some tweaking. > > I don't want any connector. I want to hold it in my hand. Not next week, but eventually. > Ciarcia's Circuit Cellar did an interesting series of articles on home networks. > This network used twisted pair and interfaced to the BSR line of lamp controllers, > thermostats, fire alarms, etc. I think someone actually proded them to use > TCP/IP, but in the end, a simple protocol was developed. One that could fit > on a microcontroller, and not require a 1.6 Gig drive or a Pentium Pro :-) It > works fine on an 8031 or 80C32 etc. Do you remember which issue(s)? > > Picture a cell of Amateurs throughout the city. How does each node find all > the other nodes (protocol 1 required). How does each node get to the other > node (protocol 2 required). How is the voice digitized and compressed (protocol > 3 required). I don't think UDP or TCP is a good option here. I don't think IP > is a good option, we can't really expect 4 Billion nodes can we? Let's say > maybe 256 people can use one channel. That should only take up 8 bits of > address instead of 32 bits, and can even be selected randomly as nodes > come online at each radio. > Fine if the information is going to stay at that one cell. The example I gave earlier is limited to 32 addresses at the lowest level, 64 at the next leve up....etc. If the radio is transparent to the higher layers, who cares. John From ssampson@oklahoma.net Sun Jan 26 15:03:08 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA07372 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:03:05 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA22537; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:07:28 -0600 Message-Id: <199701262107.PAA22537@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:906] Re: unix on floppy Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:02:08 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit > There's a web server running on a single board x86 rom based computer at > http://smallest.pharlap.com/ It's 3.6x3.8inches in size and is hooked to weather > instruments. > > My $.02 First of all, that's a really neat web page! Alas, those little suckers aren't what they seem. Let's see... 4 x 4 inches, can't cost much right? Better start saving those 2 cents up though. Most go for about $800, you can probably talk em down to $700... I do like the fact that it isn't unix though. I always thought small real-time OS's are the better way to go in this application. From ssampson@oklahoma.net Sun Jan 26 15:18:23 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA08173 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:18:22 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA23180; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:22:46 -0600 Message-Id: <199701262122.PAA23180@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:905] Re: *nix on floppy Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:17:26 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin writes: > I don't run a Microsloth OS! I am running Linux as my operating > system. What's a Microsloth OS? I'm sorry, I don't keep up with all the new Operating Systems coming out each year. > Despite what many "Follow the flock" PC users thing there > are drivers for just about everything out there for Linux. My > HP855C, My HP Scanjet IIcx, the Matrix Millenium Video Card w/4MB RAM.. > Plus the software out there is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have entirely too much expendable income :-) > I'LL TELL YOU WHY, THE ARRL and OTHERS HAVE THIER HAND IN THE > POCKETS OF OTHER AMATURE RADIO COMPANIES. Let's not get too excited here. This is just electronics, not capitalism 101... I'll tell you why many won't try Linux. I'm a Unix Administrator by profession, and I've taken years to get where I am, as far as understanding both the OS and the tools. Linux and Unix are the easy part, getting the system configured to do work is the hard part. Add to that the trials and tribulations of the programmers. This weekend I decided to upgrade my RedHat Linux. I read the manual, booted with the floppy and presto! My system was completely hosed! No problem, I'll just go around and clean things up, I said. Crap, it's really hosed. OK, blow it away and start over! Suffice to say, the thing actually looked better on upgrade, then it does after a new install! Everything needs to be reconfigured. And it still looks like X windows to me, even if the do call it FVWM95-2... Now all I need to do is download all the modem tools I had to throw away, because they don't work with this version. Then I have to upgrade the OS probably, because one of the tools requires release 19, and not 18, etc, etc. So don't go patting yourself on the back just yet there, big boy :-) Steve From ssampson@oklahoma.net Sun Jan 26 15:27:16 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA08624 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:27:15 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id PAA23614; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:31:40 -0600 Message-Id: <199701262131.PAA23614@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Re: [SS:904] Re: Unix on floppy Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:26:20 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Richard Parry writes: > Sorry, please tell me with "nix" is? Unix is a trademark probably. So the author, fearing suit probably, felt that leaving one letter off makes it alright. But the sad fact is, that the following are all trademarks of my company: *nix u*ix un*x uni* I'll have my lawyers get in touch with all of you :-) Steve "Fear of lawyers is right up there with forcible sodomy" - Krusty the Clown From strohs@halcyon.com Sun Jan 26 15:48:37 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA10174 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:48:33 -0600 (CST) Received: from chinook.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA24469; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:48:13 -0800 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 13:48:31 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: TAPR Spread Spectrum SIG Mailing List Subject: Re: [SS:904] Re: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sun, 26 Jan 1997, Richard Parry wrote: > Sorry, please tell me with "nix" is? * typically means a wildcard character, so *nix could mean Unix Linux Xenix Ultrix etc. Generically, any Unix derivative Steve N8GNJ -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From hwm@netcom.com Sun Jan 26 17:29:24 1997 Received: from mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (hwm@netcom9.netcom.com [192.100.81.119]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA15894 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:29:10 -0600 (CST) Received: (from Bob Lorenzini hwm@netcom.com) by mm.wd6dod.ampr.org (8.7.5/8.6.12) id PAA00129 for ss@tapr.org; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:29:51 -0800 Message-ID: X-Mailer: XFMail 1.1-alpha [p0] on Linux Sender: hwm@netcom.com Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: <199701262107.PAA22537@dns.okc> Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:01:00 -0800 (PST) From: Bob Lorenzini To: ss@tapr.org Subject: RE: [SS:909] Re: unix on floppy On 26-Jan-97 Steve Sampson wrote: > much grumbling about *nix, OS et all Steve what I envision is a small SB board with linux in rom, ~4 meg ram, tables in eeprom, ethernet and a couple of serial ports and modem and or SS radio header/interface. The software could be developed on the many linux systems out here. The ethernet is probably the best/easest high speed interface. It could be configured thru either the ethernet or serial ports like normal routers. The user need not know linux or any other operating system. He could simply enter his parameters in a table like a normal tnc but using a more frendly interface. Why linux? You need not pay a royalty on each box like you would with dos/pharlap/oranyotherembedded-os. All the protocols are available now including the latest roving wireless. It seems this list is degenerating into an OS war. I know that I myself and others are frustrated over the FreeWave deal. This linux topic is periheral to a SS/modem issue and some would prefer to discuss SS voice issues instead. From the responce to the FW offer however, it does appear there is great interest in a high speed SS/modem router kind of box and that linux could be used to impart to it a great deal of intelligence. I'am not about to tell anyone what should be discussed in this list, but I for one would now like to hear some SS radio topics discussed here. my 2 cents worth Bob - wd6dod E-Mail: Bob Lorenzini Date: 26-Jan-97 Time: 15:01:03 _____________________________Mail From rparry@qualcomm.com Sun Jan 26 19:32:52 1997 Received: from fantasia.qualcomm.com (fantasia.qualcomm.com [129.46.52.12]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA22501 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 19:32:51 -0600 (CST) Received: from [129.46.92.34] ([129.46.92.34]) by fantasia.qualcomm.com (8.8.4/1.4f/8.7.2/1.12) with ESMTP id RAA12547 for ; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:32:18 -0800 (PST) X-Sender: rparry@nala.qualcomm.com Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <199701262131.PAA23614@dns.okc> Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 17:32:22 -0800 To: ss@tapr.org From: Richard Parry Subject: Re: [SS:911] Re: Unix on floppy Thanks for the clarification. I am a UNIX guru wanna be, I am almost there. Most of my life is spent on a Linux box. BTW, just published article Amateur Radio and Linux in 73 magazine, page 10. Thanks, >Richard Parry writes: > >> Sorry, please tell me with "nix" is? > >Unix is a trademark probably. So the author, fearing suit probably, felt that >leaving one letter off makes it alright. But the sad fact is, that the >following are >all trademarks of my company: > > *nix > u*ix > un*x > uni* > >I'll have my lawyers get in touch with all of you :-) > >Steve >"Fear of lawyers is right up there with forcible sodomy" - Krusty the Clown --------------- Richard Parry, P.E., W9IF - Ext 8-4972, Office R-307B Qualcomm, Inc. Globalstar/Gateway Reverse Link Intranet --> Internet --> AX.25 --> W9IF@K6JCC.#SOCAL.CA.USA.NOAM --------------- From beltrani@hawaii.edu Mon Jan 27 03:58:17 1997 Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id DAA23016 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 03:58:16 -0600 (CST) Received: from uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.54]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <587028(8)>; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:55:13 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <216691(2)>; Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:57:57 -1000 Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 23:57:49 -1000 From: Paul A Beltrani X-Sender: beltrani@uhunix4 Reply-To: beltrani@pixi.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:895] *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII At the risk of being off topic for this list, I would like to make some comments regarding the 1 Floppy/ROM UN*X box. 1) I believe the real reason there are not many (any) single floppy / ROM UN*X packages is because there really has not been a need. As several have mentioned, its too easy to setup a cheap (old) PC with a minimal HD (>=20Meg). 2) If you have the disposable income, and ALL you need is routing, you dont waste time with a UN*X box. You buy a router. If you dont have the extra cash, please refer to item #1. 3) On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: > If I could order up the "*nix floppy from the TAPR Software Library, > edit a few config files with callsign, IP address, ports, routes, etc. > and then I have a working router, then that's real progress. You can purchase the LINUX slackware package on CD. The system comes with a fairly straightforward setup package. There are several options including putting the config files on your hard drive and running the rest of the system (executables) off the CDROM. Once installed, you edit the config files to reflect you needs. (Linux CDs run from $10 for a basic CD of kernels and apps, to a 4 CD more stuff than youll ever care to see about Linux package for $40. (Wallnut Creek http://www.cdrom.com/) ) The only snag I can think of is there may not be a precompiled kernel that has the features you need. eg drivers for the Ottawa PI card. If that is a problem, you should be able to ask your local Linux geek to compile one for you. If you dont have a local geek, Ill see what I can do for you. 4) There ain't no free lunch. Even with a minimal install. You still have to understand the basics of Routing, and UNIX to get the system to work. 5) As this is probably more of a netsig topic, I would be happy to discuss it over there or via direct email. - Paul Beltrani, AH6NU From ssampson@oklahoma.net Mon Jan 27 06:01:20 1997 Received: from dns.okc (dns.oklahoma.net [208.2.112.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id GAA26310 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:01:18 -0600 (CST) Received: from ssampson.oklahoma.net by dns.okc (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id GAA27176; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:05:30 -0600 Message-Id: <199701271205.GAA27176@dns.okc> From: "Steve Sampson" To: Subject: Fw: [SS:911] Re: Unix on floppy Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 06:00:03 -0600 X-MSMail-Priority: Normal X-Priority: 3 X-Mailer: Microsoft Internet Mail 4.70.1155 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I guess I can't kid around on ss anymore, as "Bernie the Nazi" has taken over the channel. See you guys later, it was fun. Steve, n5owk ---------- > From: Bernie Doehner > To: crull@plano.net; abuse@oklahoma.net; ssampson@oklahoma.net; root@oklahoma.net > Subject: [SS:911] Re: Unix on floppy (fwd) > Date: Sunday, January 26, 1997 7:53 PM > > Dear System Administrators at Oklahoma.net and Plano.net: > > Please inform your user "ssampson" about the inappropriateness and > illegality of threatening others by email. > > Thank you for your cooperation. > > Best Regards, > > Bernie Doehner > > > ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > Date: Sun, 26 Jan 1997 15:42:48 -0600 (CST) > From: Steve Sampson > Reply-To: ss@tapr.org > To: ss@tapr.org > Subject: [SS:911] Re: Unix on floppy > > Richard Parry writes: > > > Sorry, please tell me with "nix" is? > > Unix is a trademark probably. So the author, fearing suit probably, felt that > leaving one letter off makes it alright. But the sad fact is, that the following are > all trademarks of my company: > > *nix > u*ix > un*x > uni* > > I'll have my lawyers get in touch with all of you :-) > > Steve > "Fear of lawyers is right up there with forcible sodomy" - Krusty the Clown > From gwyn@paccomm.com Mon Jan 27 07:05:33 1997 Received: from paccomm.com (paccomm.com [163.125.30.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id HAA28485 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:05:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from gwyn by paccomm.com with smtp (Smail3.1.29.1 #1) id m0voqka-000FSBC; Mon, 27 Jan 97 08:05 EST Received: by gwyn with Microsoft Mail id <01BC0C29.07A0C360@gwyn>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:06:42 -0500 Message-ID: <01BC0C29.07A0C360@gwyn> From: Gwyn Reedy To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 897] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:06:40 -0500 Encoding: 39 TEXT, 53 UUENCODE X-MS-Attachment: WINMAIL.DAT 0 00-00-1980 00:00 What about a 2.88 mb floppy? Probably not in your junkbox, but available and low cost. Gwyn Reedy, W1BEL PacComm Packet Radio Systems gwyn@paccomm.com http://www.paccomm.com ---------- From: Jerry Normandin[SMTP:jerryn@ici.net] Sent: Saturday, January 25, 1997 12:10 PM To: ss@tapr.org Subject: [SS:897] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? Jerry replies: The linux kernel in itself compressed will fit on a floppy as well. BUT YOU NEED MORE in FreeBSD and LINUX to do Mobile routing! You need the /proc file system up. I can fit everything including OS, router code, and SAVE for the IP mapping, MX records for SENDMAIL, andthe DNS on a 380MB HD! I have everything working now! THE KERNEL is just one part... granted a major part of the operating system. Do you have any clue of how much ram Sendmail consumes? You need to have smtp enabled, and popmail on the mail server. This isn't a simple NOS. It's a complete full blown tcp/ip wireless networking package! It's not just a router... I am using the box for other things. If you are not concerned about a cellular style router for mobile comminications then I guess you can EASILY make some IOS that only runs RIP. I don't run routed right now... I have static routes entered in my route table until I can fully test the IPMobile_Linux code. begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(BH-`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`] ````$````,`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````-0`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'-S0'1A<'(N;W)G`%--5% ```,P`0````P```!S`!X,`0````,```!-4P``'@`?# $````2````5VEN9&]W M6X````#``808;,G& ,`!Q )! ``'@`($ $```!E````5TA! M5$%"3U5403(X.$U"1DQ/4%!9/U!23T)!0DQ93D]424Y93U522E5.2T)/6"Q" M551!5D%)3$%"3$5!3D1,3U=#3U-41U=93E)%1419+%3\@"E #8&(!H&QY M(&XF;P5 "X @>0AA(&H(=6YK!N!X+"!B71SR=@MP"V "8&4!D>2 `5S%"-$5,(K50`- (4&UM#282 M:Q(`!_!A9&EOHQ(Q(:!E;7,AW&- WP#- O8PM9,38KL.L#8">@ M8P5 +3&'*YL!G ( `Q.3FR-SWP,CH:L!XP33B/N3,]5&\ZSS5[!!! `9 U%, N!;!G M/M\YGG5B'S>0,5! _S5[-S!3.CBM/B!=).%%\%<@8&4:<6 @=&-P+P4@'8!U ME&QT!2!O"X!T/RV/^2Z3,S8P!Q6R# $Q!BN5SS9$%Y +4 B00$? A( /P_FP#("\P M!4 "(!T1'<0P145$<0703U)%'P(T( G@ M0@9358 A`DQ)3E58ZTD0)U!D)U!-'F #$"#@YP-@'/ +@&=$G@OG!NDU,169)NDQ'PH7(?H/T$(%)?H'6B5V%T MHH>A753[618%$&Y1PI &0_TG 6A!=8P0@.I$$D%)1'Q%^;4WQ77)) M$""S'Z!)P&S_*Y5;-7;A'K"+P05 7V17I/Q?3%!S7C(ASTIO2WP;R M,OA:Q M`)7 ```#`! 0``````,`$1 !````0 `',(#P%[]2#+P!0 `(,(#P%[]2#+P! >'@`]``$````%````4D4Z( `````#``TT_3<``.L4 ` end From jerryn@ici.net Mon Jan 27 09:40:03 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA05326 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:40:01 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA23531 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:36:15 -0500 (EST) Received: from nelix (localhost.ici.net [127.0.0.1]) by nelix.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA07596 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:35:41 -0500 (EST) Sender: develop@ici.net Message-ID: <32ECCB4C.167EB0E7@ici.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:35:40 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:910] Re: *nix on floppy References: <199701262122.PAA23180@dns.okc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin Replies: Microsloth = Microsoft.. you know "Makeing it all make nonesense" Second of all, My linux box at home does excatly what I want it to do. Third... What the hell do you think I do for a living? I am the Sr. Systems Engineer at an ISP. And our ISP is built on Sun Sparc Equipment. The Wireless is built on Linux, and my workstation at Work is a Sparc 5, My Station at home is a Linux Box. As far as expandable income... SO? I went to college.. big deal, I also have 10 years experience. 34 Years Old. Always keeping up with new technology... AND SINCE MicroSloth screwed me on a royalty when I was 26 I have been very ANTI-Microsoft andhave been promoting alternative operating Systems! SUCH AS LINUX. I can get Linux to do EXACTLY WHAT I WANT. Steve Sampson wrote: > > Jerry Normandin writes: > > > I don't run a Microsloth OS! I am running Linux as my operating > > system. > > What's a Microsloth OS? I'm sorry, I don't keep up with all the new > Operating Systems coming out each year. > > > Despite what many "Follow the flock" PC users thing there > > are drivers for just about everything out there for Linux. My > > HP855C, My HP Scanjet IIcx, the Matrix Millenium Video Card w/4MB RAM.. > > Plus the software out there is great!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! > > You have entirely too much expendable income :-) > > > I'LL TELL YOU WHY, THE ARRL and OTHERS HAVE THIER HAND IN THE > > POCKETS OF OTHER AMATURE RADIO COMPANIES. > > Let's not get too excited here. This is just electronics, not capitalism 101... > > I'll tell you why many won't try Linux. I'm a Unix Administrator by profession, > and I've taken years to get where I am, as far as understanding both the > OS and the tools. Linux and Unix are the easy part, getting the system > configured to do work is the hard part. Add to that the trials and tribulations > of the programmers. This weekend I decided to upgrade my RedHat Linux. > I read the manual, booted with the floppy and presto! My system was > completely hosed! No problem, I'll just go around and clean things up, I > said. Crap, it's really hosed. OK, blow it away and start over! > > Suffice to say, the thing actually looked better on upgrade, then it does > after a new install! Everything needs to be reconfigured. And it still looks > like X windows to me, even if the do call it FVWM95-2... > > Now all I need to do is download all the modem tools I had to throw away, > because they don't work with this version. Then I have to upgrade the OS > probably, because one of the tools requires release 19, and not 18, etc, etc. > > So don't go patting yourself on the back just yet there, big boy :-) > > Steve -- Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From nielsen@primenet.com Mon Jan 27 09:41:37 1997 Received: from usr04.primenet.com (root@usr04.primenet.com [206.165.5.104]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA05428 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:41:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from primenet.com (root@mailhost01.primenet.com [206.165.5.52]) by usr04.primenet.com (8.8.3/8.8.3) with ESMTP id IAA13271 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:22 -0700 (MST) Received: from MAILER-DAEMONielsen.tus.primenet.com (nielsen.tus.primenet.com [198.68.42.82]) by primenet.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id IAA24639 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:18 -0700 (MST) Received: from localhost (nielsen@localhost) by MAILER-DAEMONielsen.tus.primenet.com (8.7.6/8.7.3) with SMTP id IAA01681 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:18 -0700 X-Authentication-Warning: nielsen.tus.primenet.com: nielsen owned process doing -bs Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 08:41:17 -0700 (MST) From: Bob Nielsen X-Sender: nielsen@nielsen.tus.primenet.com Reply-To: nielsen@primenet.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:900] Re: *nix on floppy In-Reply-To: <32EAE768.1F73D919@ici.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Sat, 25 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > I'm doing voice on Spread Spectrum but the characters in this newsgroup > don't want to hear about it. they want a unix on floppy. I told I > can't do it because I need more than just the kernel. I suggest the "*nix on a floppy" discussion be moved to linux-hams@vger.rutgers.edu, so this list can focus on spread spectrum. Or maybe it should be moved to /dev/null (bit-bucket for the non-unix types.) Bob ---- Bob Nielsen Internet: nielsen@primenet.com Tucson, AZ AMPRnet: w6swe@w6swe.ampr.org AX.25: w6swe@wb7tls.az.usa.noam http://www.primenet.com/~nielsen From pozar@kumr.lns.com Mon Jan 27 09:57:07 1997 Received: from kumr.lns.com (pozar@kumr.lns.com [140.174.7.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA06263 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:57:04 -0600 (CST) Received: (from pozar@localhost) by kumr.lns.com (8.7.3/8.7.3) id HAA27675 for ss@tapr.org; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:57:02 -0800 (PST) From: Tim Pozar Message-Id: <199701271557.HAA27675@kumr.lns.com> Subject: Re: [SS:917] RE: 897] Re: Wavelan tcp/ip multipoint? To: ss@tapr.org Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 07:57:01 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: <01BC0C29.07A0C360@gwyn> from "Gwyn Reedy" at Jan 27, 97 07:10:44 am MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Gwyn Reedy wrote: > What about a 2.88 mb floppy? Probably not in your junkbox, but available and low cost. Actually I did do a one floppy router with FreeBSD with a 2.88 floppy. The down side to it was that is was a floppy. They have a limited read/writes that you can do with these things. Don't expect to have them read perfectly after the 30th time. Also as a router that is all it could do. If I wanted it to be a dns, mail, or anything server, it would have to moved to a hard drive. So for many years I ran my router on a old MFM 40 meg hard drive. Worked great and rebooted much faster than the floppy. :-) I orginally used KA9Q. In fact we started an ISP company using it. Even paid Phil the commercial rate for the package. After we got tired of having to reboot KA9Q once ever couple of days and using cast off boxes with four serial ports, we broke down and bought a Livingstion PortMaster. If all you need to do is basic routing, there is nothing like getting a cheap router like a used Livingstion IRX or Cisco 2500. I see folks selling these things used all the time. If you need to do AX.25 there is KA9Q that will work on one floppy very nicely. Again, a floppy has its problems, so if you are going to use a drive anyway get Linux. Easier to maintain remotely and do what you need it to do. From jerryn@ici.net Mon Jan 27 09:59:13 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id JAA06340 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 09:59:12 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id KAA26872 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:55:26 -0500 (EST) Received: from nelix (localhost.ici.net [127.0.0.1]) by nelix.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id KAA07592 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:29:06 -0500 (EST) Sender: develop@ici.net Message-ID: <32ECC9BB.41C67EA6@ici.net> Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 10:28:59 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:909] Re: unix on floppy References: <199701262107.PAA22537@dns.okc> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Steve Sampson wrote: > > > There's a web server running on a single board x86 rom based computer at > > http://smallest.pharlap.com/ It's 3.6x3.8inches in size and is hooked to weather > > instruments. > > > > My $.02 > > First of all, that's a really neat web page! Alas, those little suckers aren't what > they seem. Let's see... 4 x 4 inches, can't cost much right? Better start > saving those 2 cents up though. Most go for about $800, you can probably > talk em down to $700... > > I do like the fact that it isn't unix though. I always thought small real-time OS's > are the better way to go in this application. Jerry Normandin replies: Gee, You can build up a Linux Router for LESS than that and have the capability of altering the router, writing new code and perhaps learning something. Oh yeah... that's right it's the 90s and too many of us are lazy. I guess it's time I discontinue the use of this newsgroup. Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From stever@a.crl.com Mon Jan 27 14:13:50 1997 Received: from bryce.ampr.org (A113024.sna1.as.crl.com [168.75.113.24]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id OAA20940 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 14:13:47 -0600 (CST) Received: (from stever@localhost) by bryce.ampr.org (8.7.4/8.7.3) id LAA05241; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:24:10 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 11:24:08 -0800 (PST) From: "Steven M. Ruiz" X-Sender: stever@bryce.ampr.org To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:921] Re: unix on floppy In-Reply-To: <32ECC9BB.41C67EA6@ici.net> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Gee, This Jerry, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer, is kinda an angry guy. I wouldn't write anything about him or he might go off on you. I wonder what Sr. means? Is that an abreviation for Sir? Maybe he's a knight. Sir Systems Engineer. Excuse me oh noble one. Steve, KN6XQ On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > > Gee, > You can build up a Linux Router for LESS than that and have > the capability of altering the router, writing new code and perhaps > learning something. Oh yeah... that's right it's the 90s and too many > of us are lazy. I guess it's time I discontinue the use of this > newsgroup. > Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer From fred@tekdata.com Mon Jan 27 15:37:25 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool14-015.wwa.com [206.222.42.144]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA25963 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:37:17 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA29320; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:35:49 -0600 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:35:49 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:922] Re: unix on floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII Oops... Forgive me everyone: I'm the one that started this by suggesting to use Linux as a router. It can be. It doesn't have to be. Oh, why can't we get along??? :( BTW, I initally thought it at least bordered on being appropriate for ss.. as the goal here is to make a higher speed, internet like (hopefully, part of the internet) packet radio system. Routing is kinda important for that. This is now getting out of hand. Not as bad as saying UNIX is better then NT to a bunch or educators (which I mistakenly did for one of my work related groups).. but we are getting into name calling here which is never productive.... :( It looks as if there is enough interest in the software aspects of packet (like the routing, etc.)-- Would I be out of place to suggest another mailing list at tapr.org for this type of discussion? Maybe something like networking@tapr.org? Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com, KA9VAW@tapr.org --- On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Steven M. Ruiz wrote: > > > Gee, > > This Jerry, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer, is kinda an angry guy. I > wouldn't write anything about him or he might go off on you. > > I wonder what Sr. means? Is that an abreviation for Sir? Maybe he's > a knight. Sir Systems Engineer. > > Excuse me oh noble one. > > > Steve, KN6XQ > > > > On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Jerry Normandin wrote: > > > > > Gee, > > You can build up a Linux Router for LESS than that and have > > the capability of altering the router, writing new code and perhaps > > learning something. Oh yeah... that's right it's the 90s and too many > > of us are lazy. I guess it's time I discontinue the use of this > > newsgroup. > > Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer > > > From beltrani@hawaii.edu Mon Jan 27 16:35:11 1997 Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id QAA00619 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 16:35:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.54]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <587008(4)>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:32:07 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <216708(4)>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:34:47 -1000 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 12:34:41 -1000 From: Paul A Beltrani X-Sender: beltrani@uhunix4 Reply-To: beltrani@pixi.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: TAPR NetSig, was: unix on floppy In-Reply-To: Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Fred M. Spinner wrote: > It looks as if there is enough interest in the software aspects > of packet (like the routing, etc.)-- Would I be out of place to suggest > another mailing list at tapr.org for this type of discussion? > > Maybe something like networking@tapr.org? There is such a list. Check out the NetSig info at the TAPR web site. http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/sigs.html ftp://ftp.tapr.org/tapr/SIG/netsig/netsig.info - Paul Beltrani, AH6NU From strohs@halcyon.com Mon Jan 27 17:50:10 1997 Received: from mail1.halcyon.com (mail1.halcyon.com [206.63.63.40]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id RAA08487 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 17:50:09 -0600 (CST) Received: from chinook.halcyon.com by mail1.halcyon.com (5.65v3.2/1.1.10.5/10Nov96-0444PM) id AA27897; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:49:49 -0800 Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 15:50:06 -0800 (PST) From: Steve Stroh To: TAPR Spread Spectrum SIG Mailing List Subject: Re: [SS:924] TAPR NetSig, was: unix on floppy In-Reply-To: Message-Id: Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Mon, 27 Jan 1997, Paul A Beltrani wrote: > > Maybe something like networking@tapr.org? > > There is such a list. Check out the NetSig info at the TAPR web site. > http://www.tapr.org/tapr/html/sigs.html > ftp://ftp.tapr.org/tapr/SIG/netsig/netsig.info I'll second that notion. For those that are web-challenged, via e-mail you can subscribe by sending a message to: listproc@tapr.org with the following in the body of the message (no subject required): subscribe netsig NetSIG has probably gotten something of a reputation as the place to discuss Net/ROM'ish type networking, but this type of discussion (IP routers, ad nauseum) is VERY welcome on NetSIG. Steve N8GNJ TAPR NetSIG chairperson -- Steve Stroh Woodinville, Washington, USA strohs@halcyon.com From efbrya@acxiom.com Mon Jan 27 19:17:12 1997 Received: from gatekeeper.acxiom.com (gatekeeper.acxiom.com [204.180.98.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA13416 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:17:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from gatekeeper.acxiom.com (daemon@localhost) by gatekeeper.acxiom.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with ESMTP id TAA09612 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:16:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from po-conway-1.conway.acxiom.com ([135.110.1.202]) by gatekeeper.acxiom.com (8.7.2/8.7.2) with SMTP id TAA09608 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:16:17 -0600 (CST) Received: by po-conway-1.conway.acxiom.com with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63) id <01BC0C86.715E07B0@po-conway-1.conway.acxiom.com>; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:15:22 -0600 Message-ID: From: efbrya - Eric Bryan To: "'ss@tapr.org'" Subject: RE: 923] Re: unix on floppy Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 19:15:20 -0600 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.994.63 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Why not use MINIX? That runs from a floppy and runs on XTs and ATs as well. Those are almost free for the asking now. 'Nuther option is FREEDOS though I don't know how far along it is yet. Eric Bryan efbrya@acxiom.com > > From cape.net@surfergirl.spacey.net Mon Jan 27 21:30:19 1997 Received: from surfergirl.spacey.net (SPACEY.NET [205.152.52.3]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id VAA22423 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 21:30:14 -0600 (CST) From: cape.net@surfergirl.spacey.net Received: from MAX64.SPACEY.NET (MAX64.SPACEY.NET [205.152.52.213]) by surfergirl.spacey.net (8.7.3 Version 1.1 Build 565/8.7.3) with SMTP id WAA00184 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:24:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Date: Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:24:25 -0500 (Eastern Standard Time) Message-Id: <199701280324.WAA00184@surfergirl.spacey.net> X-Sender: tony@spacey.net X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Light Version 1.5.2 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:915] Re: *nix on floppy At 03:59 AM 1/27/97 -0600, you wrote: >At the risk of being off topic for this list, I would like to make some >comments regarding the 1 Floppy/ROM UN*X box. > >1) I believe the real reason there are not many (any) single floppy / ROM >UN*X packages is because there really has not been a need. As several >have mentioned, its too easy to setup a cheap (old) PC with a minimal HD >(>=20Meg). > >2) If you have the disposable income, and ALL you need is routing, you >dont waste time with a UN*X box. You buy a router. If you dont have the >extra cash, please refer to item #1. > >3) On Sat, 25 Jan 1997 dkelly@hiwaay.net wrote: >> If I could order up the "*nix floppy from the TAPR Software Library, >> edit a few config files with callsign, IP address, ports, routes, etc. >> and then I have a working router, then that's real progress. > What does this have to do with Amateur Spread Spectrum?!? If we are to move forward, then let's discuss SS issues, not whether you want a Linux box! From bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Mon Jan 27 22:54:21 1997 Received: from lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org [44.135.96.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA27780 for ; Mon, 27 Jan 1997 22:54:16 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bm@localhost) by lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA12672 for ss@tapr.org; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:54:25 GMT From: Barry McLarnon VE3JF Message-Id: <199701280454.EAA12672@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 04:54:24 +0000 (GMT) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: WaveLAN Performance (Was: *nix on floppy) In-Reply-To: <199701280324.WAA00184@surfergirl.spacey.net> X-Mailer: Ishmail-demo 1.3.1-961106-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain cape.net@surfergirl.spacey.net wrote: > What does this have to do with Amateur Spread Spectrum?!? If we are to move > forward, > then let's discuss SS issues, not whether you want a Linux box! Indeed, I think it's time to put this wayward thread to rest. Getting back to SS, a number of folks acquired bargain-basement 900 MHz WaveLAN cards last summer - how about some reports on how they've worked out? Unfortunately, winter caught up with me before I got any 900 MHz antennas up, so all I can report is that they work quite nicely across the room. :-) What kind of ranges and throughputs have been achieved? What about driver issues? I've heard reports that the WaveLAN driver for Linux doesn't work with recent kernel versions - any experience out there? Barry -- Barry McLarnon VE3JF/VA3TCP | Internet: bm@hydra.carleton.ca Ottawa Amateur Radio Club | AMPRnet: bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Packet Working Group | Web: http://hydra.carleton.ca From bad@uhf.wireless.net Tue Jan 28 00:19:52 1997 Received: from uhf.wdc.net (uhf.wdc.net [198.147.74.44]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id AAA06703 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 00:19:39 -0600 (CST) Received: from localhost (bad@localhost) by uhf.wdc.net (8.8.4/8.6.12) with SMTP id BAA12844 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:24:30 -0500 (EST) Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 01:24:27 -0500 (EST) From: Bernie Doehner To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:928] WaveLAN Performance (Was: *nix on floppy) In-Reply-To: <199701280454.EAA12672@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > Indeed, I think it's time to put this wayward thread to rest. Second that! > have been achieved? What about driver issues? I've heard reports > that the WaveLAN driver for Linux doesn't work with recent kernel > versions - any experience out there? > Can't comment about the Linux ISA driver. I can just say that the wavelan driver from pcmcia-cs-2.9.0 works really well with kernel 2.0.27. I am involved with a FreeBSD developer in Australia and a professor at Portland State University in testing/developing the FreeBSD 2.2 driver for Wavelan. I am presently running this wavelan driver under 2.2-BETA without any problems except that you can't set the IRQ with the kernel quite yet (a checksum calculation routine needs to be fixed). Within my house I consistently get 190 kbyte/second ftp transfer speeds when transfering large files and there are only two stations active. I haven't yet gotten to the point of trying out outdoor. Bernie From jerryn@ici.net Tue Jan 28 13:16:44 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA07564 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 13:16:42 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id OAA12017 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:53 -0500 (EST) Received: from nelix (localhost.ici.net [127.0.0.1]) by nelix.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id OAA08386 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:18 -0500 (EST) Sender: develop@ici.net Message-ID: <32EE4F91.3F54BC7E@ici.net> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 1997 14:12:17 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:929] Re: WaveLAN Performance (Was: *nix on floppy) References: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Jerry Normandin Replies: If anyone ever payed attention to my previous posts you'd notice that I had to modify the Linux driver for Wavelan because many of the new cards are manufactured by Lucent technologies and THEY changed the MAC address. The MAC address is checked upon driver initialization and if the MAC don't match the driver does not load. I rewrote my driver and it works fine!!!!!!!!!!! And to the turkey asking what Sr. stands for it's Senior Bernie Doehner wrote: > > > Indeed, I think it's time to put this wayward thread to rest. > > Second that! > > > have been achieved? What about driver issues? I've heard reports > > that the WaveLAN driver for Linux doesn't work with recent kernel > > versions - any experience out there? > > > > Can't comment about the Linux ISA driver. I can just say that the > wavelan driver from pcmcia-cs-2.9.0 works really well with kernel 2.0.27. > > I am involved with a FreeBSD developer in Australia and a professor at > Portland State University in testing/developing the FreeBSD 2.2 > driver for Wavelan. I am presently running this wavelan driver under > 2.2-BETA without any problems except that you can't set the IRQ with the > kernel quite yet (a checksum calculation routine needs to be fixed). > > Within my house I consistently get 190 kbyte/second ftp transfer speeds > when transfering large files and there are only two stations active. > > I haven't yet gotten to the point of trying out outdoor. > > Bernie -- Jerry Normandin, iCi Sr. Systems Engineer Tel.(508)261-0383 x1118 "I'm not only an iCi Staff member, I'm also a client!" From bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Tue Jan 28 22:44:12 1997 Received: from lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org [44.135.96.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id WAA06897 for ; Tue, 28 Jan 1997 22:44:07 -0600 (CST) Received: (from bm@localhost) by lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org (8.6.12/8.6.12) id EAA17077 for ss@tapr.org; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:43:48 GMT From: Barry McLarnon VE3JF Message-Id: <199701290443.EAA17077@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 04:43:47 +0000 (GMT) To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:929] Re: WaveLAN Performance (Was: *nix on floppy) In-Reply-To: X-Mailer: Ishmail-demo 1.3.1-961106-linux MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain Bernie Doehner wrote: > I am involved with a FreeBSD developer in Australia and a professor at > Portland State University in testing/developing the FreeBSD 2.2 > driver for Wavelan. I am presently running this wavelan driver under > 2.2-BETA without any problems except that you can't set the IRQ with the > kernel quite yet (a checksum calculation routine needs to be fixed). > > Within my house I consistently get 190 kbyte/second ftp transfer speeds > when transfering large files and there are only two stations active. That's impressive. I tried the WaveLAN packet driver and JNOS, and only got about 70 kbytes/s. This was with the TCP window equal to the MSS - if I opened up the window to a multiple of MSS, the throughput nosedived to near-zero. I got the impression that JNOS wasn't keeping the pipe filled, so carrier would drop briefly between outgoing segments, causing the receiving end to ACK and collide with the next segment. Or maybe WaveLAN is doing something strange at the link layer which interacts badly with the upper layers, or maybe the packet driver is just plain broken. Anybody got a handle on that? Barry -- Barry McLarnon VE3JF/VA3TCP | Internet: bm@hydra.carleton.ca Ottawa Amateur Radio Club | AMPRnet: bm@lynx.ve3jf.ampr.org Packet Working Group | Web: http://hydra.carleton.ca From jeff@mich.com Wed Jan 29 17:30:55 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id RAA01345; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 17:30:53 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id SAA20795; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:31:43 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970129233040.00725f30@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 18:30:40 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss-sig@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: The point of the SS group buy I've watched with varying levels of irritation as the group buy dissolved between TAPR and FreeWave. Getting past this (which I think I've just about done), I got to thinking what exactly is the point of this group buy? We hear (but I've yet to see anything in print) that TAPR is involved with a NSF grant to develop spread spectrum technology. We've seen some group purchases do well... the Garmin GPS module and the Motorola DSP EVM56 kit. Both of these purchases were "non threatening" to the host company. I.E. TAPR was not a competitor. In Garmin's case the TAPR membership would have been perceived as a user base and in Motorola's case it would be developing a pool of DSP developers on the 56 series chips. FreeWave apparently perceived TAPR as a potential competitor in the marketplace, amoung other things, we are told. My point here is if indeed it is TAPR's goal to develop its own SS technology, I can see the same thing happening again. More importantly, since it is TAPR's position that it is a volunteer organization, it would be best to train the membership to understand SS concepts and hardware. Its seems to me the best way to do this is to work with open systems... either one of the Eval boards from Harris (PRISM) or other companies or a more open system like the ATT/Lucent WaveLan boards (which, BTW, has LINUX drivers). Its my vote for TAPR to persue a eval kit from one of the SS chip makers. With some of them they even give you the radio hardware, so these eval kits are fairly close to plug and play. We won't run into any non-disclosure issues as clearly TAPR's success is would be the chip maker's success. In this way we can further TAPR's goal(?) in the NSF contract by developing a pool of experts within TAPR. Agree or Dis-agree? Regards, ------------------------------------ | Jeff King Aero Data Systems | | jeff@mich.com P.O. Box 9325 | | (810)471-1787 Livonia, MI 48151 | |F(810)471-0279 United States | ------------------------------------ From LesT@worldnet.att.net Wed Jan 29 19:33:06 1997 Received: from mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net (mailhost.worldnet.att.net [204.127.129.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id TAA06652 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:33:04 -0600 (CST) Received: from lesterta ([207.146.209.37]) by mtigwc02.worldnet.att.net (post.office MTA v2.0 0613 ) with ESMTP id AAA27338 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:32:17 +0000 Message-ID: <32EFFA2D.1053@worldnet.att.net> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 19:32:29 -0600 From: Les Tacke Reply-To: LesT@worldnet.att.net X-Sender: Les Tacke (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org X-Priority: Normal References: <32EED713.4FB9@worldnet.att.net> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----------444B75119EA0" ------------444B75119EA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii UNSUBSCRIBE ------------444B75119EA0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
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------------444B75119EA0-- From beltrani@hawaii.edu Wed Jan 29 20:01:37 1997 Received: from relay1.Hawaii.Edu (root@relay1.Hawaii.Edu [128.171.3.53]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id UAA08101 for ; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 20:01:34 -0600 (CST) Received: from uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu ([128.171.44.54]) by relay1.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <586805(9)>; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 15:58:27 -1000 Received: from localhost by uhunix4.its.Hawaii.Edu with SMTP id <216694(8)>; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:01:14 -1000 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 16:01:09 -1000 From: Paul A Beltrani X-Sender: beltrani@uhunix4 Reply-To: beltrani@pixi.com To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:932] The point of the SS group buy In-Reply-To: <2.2.32.19970129233040.00725f30@mail.mich.com> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII > I've watched with varying levels of irritation as the group buy > dissolved between TAPR and FreeWave. > > Getting past this (which I think I've just about done), I got to > thinking what exactly is the point of this group buy? We hear (but > .... > > My point here is if indeed it is TAPR's goal to develop its own > SS technology, I can see the same thing happening again. More > .... > SS concepts and hardware. Its seems to me the best way to do this > is to work with open systems... either one of the Eval boards from > Harris (PRISM) or other companies or a more open system like > the ATT/Lucent WaveLan boards (which, BTW, has LINUX drivers). > > Its my vote for TAPR to persue a eval kit from one of the SS chip > makers. > .... > Agree or Dis-agree? Developing a project from an eval kit would be much easier than starting from scratch. Is someone who has the authority to speak for TAPR willing to purse it? I believe we would be doing a service to the Amateur community if we developed a kit or cookbook design that could be built by anyone with some basic skills. (Much like the original TNC) I would be willing to volunteer my time to assist with such a project. - Paul Beltrani, AH6NU From clearbrook_technical@mindlink.bc.ca Thu Jan 30 01:25:51 1997 Received: from linux.clrtech.com. (excel63.jumppoint.com [204.191.232.188]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id BAA00875 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 01:25:48 -0600 (CST) From: clearbrook_technical@mindlink.bc.ca Received: from fk-win.mtn.clrtech.com (fk-win.mtn.clrtech.com [172.17.100.103]) by linux.clrtech.com. (8.6.9/8.6.9) with SMTP id XAA10544; Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:40:46 -0800 Date: Wed, 29 Jan 1997 23:40:46 -0800 Message-Id: <199701300740.XAA10544@linux.clrtech.com.> From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Thu Jan 30 07:03:23 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA10696 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 07:03:21 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA08979 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:00:50 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA24372; Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:00:46 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA11501; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:00:49 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 08:00:49 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701301300.IAA11501@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:932] The point of the SS group buy X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Its my vote for TAPR to persue a eval kit from one of the SS chip makers. > With some of them they even give you the radio hardware, so these > eval kits are fairly close to plug and play. We won't run into any > non-disclosure issues as clearly TAPR's success is would be the > chip maker's success. In this way we can further TAPR's goal(?) in > the NSF contract by developing a pool of experts within TAPR. > > Agree or Dis-agree? > > Regards, > > ------------------------------------ > | Jeff King Aero Data Systems | > | jeff@mich.com P.O. Box 9325 | > | (810)471-1787 Livonia, MI 48151 | > |F(810)471-0279 United States | > ------------------------------------ > > While pursuing the eval kit direction would be a good learning experience, it really will not establish Amateurs on the "cutting edge" of SS technology. I feel a better route would be to develop a SS radio that is easy to build (no harder than the TAPR DSP-93 kit), but one that allows enough hooks in it to let the more experienced ham expand on the original design. This way we will be able to ask the "What If" and "Why" questions directly to those involved in the kit. The Harris PRISM chipset is a good idea, but again we would be designing from a systems point-of-view. I feel more amateurs would understand the complexities of SS better if the radio is built in a modular fashion and explain WHY we are designing it this way as opposed to that way. Once we come up with a basic block diagram, the pieces should fall (relatively) easy into place. 73s de Tony KE4ATO From hansen@ait.fredonia.edu Thu Jan 30 10:01:27 1997 Received: from oak.ait.fredonia.edu (oak.ait.fredonia.edu [141.238.20.4]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA17842 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:01:26 -0600 (CST) Received: from oak.ait.fredonia.edu by oak.ait.fredonia.edu (NTMail 3.02.10) with ESMTP id ia005182 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:56:54 +0000 Message-ID: <32F0C5C8.567B@ait.fredonia.edu> Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:01:12 -0500 From: John Hansen Reply-To: hansen@ait.fredonia.edu Organization: SUNY-Fredonia X-Sender: John Hansen (Unverified) X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.0b1 (Win95; I) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:934] Re: The point of the SS group buy X-Priority: Normal References: Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii First of all kudos to Jeff King for his efforts to steer the discussion onto a productive path. I think he's absolutely right. I'm really responding to Paul's comments about raising the money to undertake such a project. Frankly, I don't think money is the problem. Look at the number of people who, just a few weeks ago, were willing to shell out $800 for a pair of these radios. Personally, I would be willing to start the ball rolling by donating at least $100 (and more if necessary) to this project to purchase parts and so forth with no expectation of getting anything in return except perhaps some education. I suspect that there are at least a dozen others on this group who would do the same. Furthermore, organizational talent isn't really the stumbling block either. TAPR has certainly organized substantially larger projects and is legendary for it's low overhead. The problem as I see it is finding the folks who can take these resources and design a system of moderate cost that can be replicated by the rest of us. Do we have people who are both competent to do this type of work and have the time to accomplish it? If so, this might not be a way to become rich, but it certainly would make you famous. John WA0PTV From randyrf@sss-mag.com Thu Jan 30 10:34:23 1997 Received: from nanospace.com (root@nanos1.nanospace.com [205.199.199.1]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id KAA19332 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:34:20 -0600 (CST) Received: from pa01-16.nanospace.com ([205.199.196.116]) by nanospace.com with smtp id (Smail3.1.29.1); Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:34 PST Date: Thu, 30 Jan 97 08:34 PST Message-Id: <2.2.16.19970131003335.24cf81e2@sss-mag.com> X-Sender: randyrf@sss-mag.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (16) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" X-Priority: 1 (Highest) To: ss@tapr.org From: Randy Roberts Subject: Good work so far, TAPR! I've been reading the "mail" on this group for about six weeks now and I think it's time that I made a comment -- so here goes: Randy Roberts' (KC6YJY) Ideas, Thoughts and Suggestions re: TAPR SS STA KC6YJY Congratulates TAPR on a Job Well Done! NOTE: Spread Spectrum (SS) communications is not new to Ham Radio -- indeed, Ham efforts go back to at least the early 1980's (see the ARRL Spread Spectrum Sourcebook). Dedicated Hams, including Buaas and his STA (Special Temporary Authority) team have recently paved the way for wider Ham Radio usage of this emerging technology. TAPR's recent successful FCC request for changes to the FCC rules regarding Spread Spectrum opens up amateur radio SS experimentation to a much wider, organized group of very capable Hams. It seems that anyone interested may join in TAPR's effort -- I hope that a lot of the world's Hams do join in. The more folks supporting this effort, learning about this technology and just plain "helping out" will ensure that Ham Radio enters the next millenia equipped to stave off more commercial intrusions into our precious frequency bands. Only by activities like this can Ham Radio stay alive, active and healthy. TAPR has led numerous other efforts in Packet Radio, in Ham Radio's use of DSP Techniques and providing a forum for experimentation, discussion and comradery in the past. TAPR now will take the lead in getting Hams to use SS techniques. I heartily congratulate TAPR on their success with this STA and thank the society for their hard work! Best of luck AND we would like to help you in any way we can. This article presents the original work of Randy Roberts (KC6YJY, ex-WA6BFN) regarding the subjects herein addressed. Spread Spectrum Scene Online and RF/Spread Spectrum consulting join our leader in hoping for a very successful outcome from TAPR's endeavors and we pray that Ham Radio finally catches on and "Tunes In" to Spread Spectrum. INTRODUCTION Are you ready for it? Here is a real challenge for Ham Radio! TAPR's new Spread Spectrum STA is a chance to radically modernize the way Ham Radio works, communicates, and THINKS. By adopting a very enlightened position and pushing for technical progress, TAPR is challenging Ham Radio to enter the 21st Century with a NEW SET of tools and high tech capabilities. How can you get ready for this STA? Hams have a very few choices to get on the bandwagon with this new technology: (1) Acquire commercial Wireless LAN or other commercial / military SS equipment, modify it for Ham use and get going -- this may be the most expensive route, but it's quick and can get the job done! (2) Modify existing Ham Radio gear for SS capability -- perhaps a tricky and sub-optimal approach. (3) Design and develop new equipment designed from scratch to utilize SS techniques -- probably the least expensive, but most time consuming route! (4) Wait till the Japanese start marketing Radios with SS capability built-in -- easy, simple, but this could take a LONG wait! My guess is that smart Hams like the folks in TAPR have already seen the wisdom of choice number (3) and have joined forces to make a group effort in this direction. I haven't read any announcements on this subject yet, but it is the most logical way to go. I suppose we all must just wait and see what TAPR does in this direction. In the mean time, what do we do to utilize SS techniques? As for approach (1) I can help some legitimate, organized group a little -- I have a GRE GINA, 900 MHz DS 1 Watt radio (which I designed for them some 5 years ago) which is fully functional that I would be willing to donate. Just email me some info about your group and tell me how you plan to use it, first come - first served, since there is ONLY one unit! Approach (2) may be viable for a Ham (or a group of Hams) with significant DSP design capabilities -- but most of us are probably just not capable of succeeding with this approach. I suggest that the BEST way for most of us to go is approach (3) -- design something new! A new IC from Norway may provide a cheap, quick and dirty solution to "roll your own" SS radio. *** see figure at http://sss-mag.com/rfic.gif -- this is a picture of the Gran-Jansen a.s. GJRF01 Single Chip RF Transceiver. *** But, if 1200 bps is not fast enough and you want something more then we need to start with a fresh, clean sheet of paper . . . Another easily adapted SS chipset is the AMI WavePlex: *** see figure at http://sss-mag.com/amiblk.gif -- this is a picture of the AMI SX043 Direct Sequence Spread Spectrum Transceiver Chip Set. *** Of course, like many other commercial SS ICs on the market, the AMI chipset was designed for the IEEE 802.11 standard! Is this the standard that Ham Radio needs and wants? I personally don't think it is! So what do we do now? Any time a new design is contemplated, a number of questions naturally arise: - What should the new SS radio / modem do? - What band should it use? - Should it use DS or FH? - What communication protocols should it use? - What computer interface should it have? - How much power, what bandwidth, what data rate, what channel coding, what modulation, . . . etc? As you can see, some or all of these questions are very FUNDAMENTAL, if we really want to COMMUNICATE with somebody else! In a nutshell, to exploit SS we need SOME STANDARDIZATION! Over the years Hams have evolved standards for SSB, CW, RTTY, SSTV, Packet, AM, Satellite, and other modes of communication. Some of these standards arose naturally through usage, some came about from equipment manufacturers building "more or less standardized" radios and still other standards were put forward by groups like TAPR. So isn't it natural to want to standardize SS communications before we design, build or buy a bunch of new equipment? HAM SS COMMUNICATIONS STANDARDIZATION With TAPR taking the lead role on this STA, I strongly believe that standardization will happen. Part of TAPR's SS team has experience helping to define the IEEE 802.11 Wireless LAN standard. Thus, if any group is capable of setting a standard for Ham SS, TAPR is! This standardization effort should be done before there is any real widespread Ham Radio use of SS -- otherwise, SS hams may just be talking to themselves! OK we need to standardize -- but, on what modes, on what applications and at what level of detail? SS communications is quite a bit different than the standard existing modes of amateur radio communications. SS has characteristics that make it more like an extended set of radio (or on the air) interfaces along with something like packet radio parameters. Both the SS on the air characvteristics AND the various SS layers of OSI-like protocols and "layers" need to be specified to make a standard useful. I'm no expert at the OSI-layer definition, but I can offer a few thoughts on the other side of "on the air" SS characteristics. I strongly feel that an "open" standard should be adopted. By this I mean that any standard set for Ham Radio SS should allow for a multitude of applications from replacing slower speed packet radio communications, to Internet / WWW communications, to digital voice, to very narrowband communications for satellite and EME. In short, a new SS standard should allow for a range of on the air parameters, various modes of communications and various data rates / modulation schemes. While no one radio (or SS radio / modem) may ever be designed to do everything in the standard, the standard should encompass: (1) Data rates from a few baud to perhaps 250 kbps. (2) Occupied (-20 dB bandwidth) RF bandwidths from 1 kHz to perhaps 3 MHz. (3) BPSK, DPSK, QPSK, DQPSK, OQPSK, GMSK, FSK, and perhaps other carrier modulations. (4) Direct Sequence (DS), Frequency Hop (FH) and Hybrid Pseudo Random / Pseudo Noise (PN) modulations. (5) CDMA, FDMA, TDMA and hybrid combinations for multiple access. (6) Optional features should include FEC, automatic message forwarding, use of repeaters, interfaces to GPS / APRS and others to be determined. I believe the standard should not limit what can be done with SS, but should be Open ENOUGH to encourage experimentation, variants, offshoots, improvements and afterthoughts. With this in mind, it is apparent that compiling, composing and maintaining this new standard is a very big job! I am certain that TAPR (perhaps with ARRL help) is up to the task. If we all support TAPR's efforts and lend whatever expertise and "sweat" we can, then such a standard may stand the test of time and provide a real direction for Amateur Radio SS in the future. THE FUTURE OF HAM SS COMMUNICATIONS? In the not too distant future, Ham SS operation may be as routine as Packet Radio is today. But, we have a long way to go to get to that point, don't we? TAPR will need everyone's help they can get to make this effort succeed. Ham radio needs to make a committment for positive change, not just sit back with our aging communications technologies. This committment for change is absolutely needed if we are not to see our "exclusive" frequency bands auctioned out from under us! This committment means we all must do our part -- so join TAPR if you are not now a member, sign up to participate in the STA if you haven't already done so and finally, quit talking about change and do something to make it happen! de: Randy Roberts, KC6YJY, ex-WA6BFN, El Granada, CA -- December 11, 1996 Post Script: Since this article first appeared at: http://sss-mag.com/hamss.html, a lot has happened (as you all know) with TAPR's SS efforts. It appeared that FREEWAVE would provide an easy and inexpensive way for a lot of Hams to get on the air with FHSS -- but alas that deal fell through! Perhaps this was a blessing in disguise, folks! It provides a chance for TAPR to INNOVATE and get together a project loke the TAPR TNC was! I think a TAPR STA-1 SS radio should be the first order of business -- don't you? My little company RF/SS has a number of SS designs that can easily be adapted to Ham SS needs. I have even discussed this subject with Dewayne Hewndricks and am waiting on a response. We are very willing to "share" one or more of these designs with the Amateur Radio community for the worthy purposes TAPR has in mind. Please let me know what you think and what Ham SS needs! BTW: Please visit our WEB Site at http://sss-mag.com, new and interesting SS stuff is posted there on a regular basis. In particular please see: http://sss-mag.com/whatsnew/nuindex.html#3 -- you might get a few new ideas! Best Regards, Randy Roberts, KC6YJY From jeff@mich.com Thu Jan 30 10:40:10 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA19439; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:40:08 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id LAA14609; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:41:26 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970130164005.00733794@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:40:05 -0500 To: ss-sta@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS-STA:288] Re: The point of the SS group buy At 11:31 PM 1/29/97 -0600, Steve Stroh wrote: > >On Wed, 29 Jan 1997, Jeff King wrote: > >> My point here is if indeed it is TAPR's goal to develop its own >> SS technology, I can see the same thing happening again. More >> importantly, since it is TAPR's position that it is a volunteer >> organization, it would be best to train the membership to understand >> SS concepts and hardware. Its seems to me the best way to do this >> is to work with open systems... either one of the Eval boards from >> Harris (PRISM) or other companies or a more open system like >> the ATT/Lucent WaveLan boards (which, BTW, has LINUX drivers). > .. I'm not speaking in an official capacity for TAPR. .. > >The eval kits sound very interesting, and if a group purchase could be >arranged, it sounds like a good fit with TAPR's current sales of GPS and >DSP units. TAPR >IS< its volunteers... are you volunteering to start >evaluating SS eval kits, Jeff? > >Steve N8GNJ > Some in the membership already have. And I am more then willing. But we really need some comment from the TAPR leadership if this is a acceptable option. -Jeff wb8wka From jeff@mich.com Thu Jan 30 11:02:56 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA20099; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:02:54 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA17095; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:04:13 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970130170251.0073b5e0@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:02:51 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss-sig@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS:936] Re: The point of the SS group buy At 07:08 AM 1/30/97 -0600, Tony Lanier wrote: > >While pursuing the eval kit direction would be a good learning experience, it really will not establish Amateurs on the "cutting edge" of SS technology. I feel a better route would be to develop a SS radio that is easy to build (no harder than the TAPR DSP-93 kit), but one that allows enough hooks in it to let the more experienced ham expand on the original design. This way we will be able to ask the "What If" and "Why" questions directly to those involved in the kit. > >The Harris PRISM chipset is a good idea, but again we would be designing from a systems point-of-view. I feel more amateurs would understand the complexities of SS better if the radio is built in a modular fashion and explain WHY we are designing it this way as opposed to that way. > >Once we come up with a basic block diagram, the pieces should fall (relatively) easy into place. > >73s de Tony KE4ATO > > Tony: I can't say I disagree with you, but the point of my post was to suggest a eval unit as opposed to a pre-built (Proxium / Wireless Data) unit. Based on your logic, I would think given a choice you'd prefer the eval unit over the proprietary pre-built unit. You aren't locked into a path with all eval units. My thoughts with a eval unit is it would: 1. Get RF on the air in short order 2. Allow enough flexiability to develop our own kits/methods as you suggest. I really think with the proper eval unit most of your concerns could be addressed. 73 -Jeff wb8wka From jeff@mich.com Thu Jan 30 11:47:31 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA22042; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:47:27 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA21788; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:48:46 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970130174724.007294f0@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:47:24 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss-sta@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS-STA:289] Re: The point of the SS group buy Hi Don: At 08:17 AM 1/30/97 -0600, wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > Hi, > > I m not in favor of TAPR developing a DSSS system for the STA. Our goal >in the STA is to prove the compatibility of SS with rest of Ham Radio. And, >I think the first frontier in this matter is the lower speed FH systems on >lower frequencies. 440 or 915 being the most likely candidates. > > Right now, from what we have seen from Freewave, I think TAPR as a group >can really outdo that product. Come up with true FH, that hops in microseconds, >not msec, and has bitwise FEC. Spread across 420 to 450, the process gain >would be such that we would have our best chance at being un-noticed, in a >populated band. Of course 432 to 432.2 and 435 to 438 could be avoided by >hop programming. I don t see an antenna issue either. While I don t have a >product on the shelf that will do this, I don t see it as impossible. Right >now, only a LPDA can provide a good antenna across this BW, with a little >gain, and be purchased off the shelf. > Check out the Zilog Z87001 Spread-Spectrum controller. It is a cordless phone spread spectrum chip that has Adaptive Frequency Hopping and Transmit power control. Look at: http://www.zilog.com/wireless/wireless.html > > With time, better DSSS chip sets might become available. 18 dB process >gain is the limit now. The Zilog/Stanford Reasearch STEL2000A has this as >a maximun process gain. The Prism chip set maxes out at 11 dB. It is this >limitation which really calls out for the need for directe antennas. And >in the general deployment scenario, these would need to be azimuthal scanning >antennas. That is, directive antennas. > > >73, Don. The AMI SX043 has a maximum process gain of 2048 chips/bit. Not sure if my calculation is right, but I *think* this would put it in excess of 33db process gain... Check out: http://www.amis.com/wireless.html You can get eval units for both of these I believe 73 -Jeff wb8wka From mackel@hotmail.com Thu Jan 30 12:23:30 1997 Received: from f21.hotmail.com (F21.hotmail.com [207.82.250.32]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id MAA24045 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 12:23:23 -0600 (CST) Received: (from root@localhost) by f21.hotmail.com (8.7.5/8.7.3) id KAA18218; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:22:58 -0800 (PST) Message-Id: <199701301822.KAA18218@f21.hotmail.com> Received: from 194.236.75.173 by www.hotmail.com with HTTP; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 10:22:52 PST From: "Marcel Bos" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: What have been done sofar?! - Expriments. Content-Type: text/plain Is there anyone here who like to contribute with her or his SS work? - I like to make a transeciver for SS for shortwave and for 144 Mhz... Pleace somone? --------------------------------------------------------- Get Your *Web-Based* Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com --------------------------------------------------------- From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Thu Jan 30 13:19:40 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA26871 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:19:38 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15266 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:59 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05531; Thu, 30 Jan 97 14:16:57 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11668; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:59 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:16:59 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701301916.OAA11668@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:940] Re: The point of the SS group buy X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > From ss@tapr.org Thu Jan 30 13:03:06 1997 > Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 11:03:49 -0600 (CST) > Originator: ss@tapr.org > From: Jeff King > To: ss@tapr.org > Subject: [SS:940] Re: The point of the SS group buy > X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0 -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas > X-Comment: Tucson Amateur Packet Radio Spread Spectrum > > At 07:08 AM 1/30/97 -0600, Tony Lanier wrote: > > > > >While pursuing the eval kit direction would be a good learning experience, > it really will not establish Amateurs on the "cutting edge" of SS > technology. I feel a better route would be to develop a SS radio that is > easy to build (no harder than the TAPR DSP-93 kit), but one that allows > enough hooks in it to let the more experienced ham expand on the original > design. This way we will be able to ask the "What If" and "Why" questions > directly to those involved in the kit. > > > >The Harris PRISM chipset is a good idea, but again we would be designing > from a systems point-of-view. I feel more amateurs would understand the > complexities of SS better if the radio is built in a modular fashion and > explain WHY we are designing it this way as opposed to that way. > > > >Once we come up with a basic block diagram, the pieces should fall > (relatively) easy into place. > > > >73s de Tony KE4ATO > > > > > > Tony: > > I can't say I disagree with you, but the point of my post was to suggest > a eval unit as opposed to a pre-built (Proxium / Wireless Data) unit. Based > on your logic, I would think given a choice you'd prefer the eval unit over > the proprietary pre-built unit. > > You aren't locked into a path with all eval units. My thoughts with a eval > unit is it would: > > 1. Get RF on the air in short order > 2. Allow enough flexiability to develop our own kits/methods as you suggest. > > I really think with the proper eval unit most of your concerns could be > addressed. > > 73 > > -Jeff wb8wka > > From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Thu Jan 30 13:27:49 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id NAA27239 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 13:27:46 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id OAA15435 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:25:13 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA05637; Thu, 30 Jan 97 14:25:12 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id OAA11670; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:25:15 -0500 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 14:25:15 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701301925.OAA11670@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:940] Re: The point of the SS group buy X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Tony: > > I can't say I disagree with you, but the point of my post was to suggest > a eval unit as opposed to a pre-built (Proxium / Wireless Data) unit. Based > on your logic, I would think given a choice you'd prefer the eval unit over > the proprietary pre-built unit. > > You aren't locked into a path with all eval units. My thoughts with a eval > unit is it would: > > 1. Get RF on the air in short order > 2. Allow enough flexiability to develop our own kits/methods as you suggest. > > I really think with the proper eval unit most of your concerns could be > addressed. > > 73 > > -Jeff wb8wka > Jeff, The eval method or perhaps using a chipset such as PRISM would be a good method to get on the air as soon as possible. It might even give us an idea as to the best approach for a kit. However, I still contend that building a radio in a modular form, using a top-down design method is the best avenue to travel, whether we do this as a group or individually. 73s de Tony KE4ATO From fred@tekdata.com Thu Jan 30 15:58:18 1997 Received: from tekdata.com (pool10-024.wwa.com [206.222.42.25]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id PAA04566 for ; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:58:11 -0600 (CST) Received: (from fred@localhost) by tekdata.com (8.6.12/8.6.12) id PAA00844; Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:24:45 -0600 Date: Thu, 30 Jan 1997 15:24:45 -0600 (CST) From: "Fred M. Spinner" To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:944] Re: The point of the SS group buy In-Reply-To: <199701301925.OAA11670@Paris.GASD102designcenter> Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII On Thu, 30 Jan 1997, Tony Lanier wrote: > > Jeff, > > The eval method or perhaps using a chipset such as PRISM would be a good > method to get on the air as soon as possible. It might even give us an > idea as to the best approach for a kit. However, I still contend that > building a radio in a modular form, using a top-down design method is the > best avenue to travel, whether we do this as a group or individually. > > 73s de Tony KE4ATO > Academically, using a "modular" design would be a better learning experience, but doesn't is make sense to use something simplier to make it actually buildable? I know it's desirable for us to "advance technology" rather than use it, however would we "lose the forest for the tree" here? I mean maybe on the original TNC it would have been higher tech if a ham designed modem was used instead of a Bell 202, but as you can tell... if it isn't broken, dont fix it? > > Fred M. Spinner, KA9VAW fred@tekdata.com From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Fri Jan 31 07:21:04 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id HAA22650 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:21:02 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id IAA23944 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:18:24 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA04465; Fri, 31 Jan 97 08:18:20 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id IAA12443; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:18:25 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:18:25 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701311318.IAA12443@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: The point of the SS group buy X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > Academically, using a "modular" design would be a better learning experience, > but doesn't is make sense to use something simplier to make it actually > buildable? What I mean by modular is develop system using "blocks" and connect them together. Each block would perform a particluar function, such as a PN generator, baseband processor, etc. If we build the SS radio this way, at least in my opinion, hams can understand the complexities of the radio better than if we used a chipset. I feel that learning how everything works is a better learning experience. Or maybe I am asking too much? > I know it's desirable for us to "advance technology" rather than use it, > however would we "lose the forest for the tree" here? I mean maybe on the > original TNC it would have been higher tech if a ham designed modem was > used instead of a Bell 202, but as you can tell... if it isn't broken, > dont fix it? Well, I suppose that depends on how much work you want to put into the thing. If we just do a minimal radio, then we will end up like packet radio at 1200 bps. Personally, I think that doing packet radio at 1200 bps is a joke. I know some hams have pushed this limit and that is how I would like to see SS pushed. Not just any old radio, but one that you can step back from and say, "Man, now THAT is cool!" I suppose one way to make everyone happy is to develop a "basic" radio, probably from a chipset, such as PRISM or the Zilog chips. Once that is working, move on to a more advanced design, such as what I discussed. What do you guys think? 73s de Tony KE4ATO From ssampson@claven.tinker.af.mil Fri Jan 31 08:00:19 1997 Received: from claven.tinker.af.mil (claven.tinker.af.mil [137.240.231.37]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA23732 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:00:17 -0600 (CST) Received: from othello.tinker.af.mil by claven.tinker.af.mil (AIX 4.1/UCB 5.64/4.03) id AA12364; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 07:46:16 -0600 Sender: ssampson@claven.tinker.af.mil Message-Id: <32F1FAE7.41C6@eds.tinker.af.mil> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:00:07 -0600 From: Steve Sampson Organization: TRW Space & Electronics X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.01 (X11; U; AIX 1) Mime-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:946] Zilog References: <199701311318.IAA12443@Paris.GASD102designcenter> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Tony Lanier wrote: > > I suppose one way to make everyone happy is to develop a "basic" radio, probably > from a chipset, such as PRISM or the Zilog chips. Probably won't be Zilog. I've tried several times last year to get docs from them. They never did respond. From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Fri Jan 31 08:27:23 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA24691 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:26:27 -0600 (CST) From: wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 08:07:56 UTC Message-Id: <12599@wb9mjn.ampr.org> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:947] Re: Zilog In-Reply-To: your message of Fri Jan 31 08:02:09 1997 <32F1FAE7.41C6@eds.tinker.af.mil> Hi Steve, In my endevours, I found Zilog one of the easiest to get docs from. They have everything on their web site, in acrobat files. And acrobat files produce the best printed result, without randomised page seperations, that cut info in half. The Acrobat files, are the same, i presume, as the pre-printer data book files. The quality is certainly as professional as a data book, or printed up data sheet. I m printing the 87001 data sheet as I type this and its 50 pages long. Just like one would expect in a real live data book. 73, Don. Mailbox : WB9MJN @ N9HSI.IL.USA.NA AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu From Gordon_Dey@Software.Mitel.COM Fri Jan 31 08:36:38 1997 Received: from cygnus.software.mitel.com (newgate.mitel.com [198.53.180.100]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id IAA25300 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 08:36:36 -0600 (CST) Received: tid JAA28662; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 09:37:55 -0500 Received: from Software.Mitel.COM by Mitel.COM (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA14606; Fri, 31 Jan 97 09:36:36 EST Received: from sten45.software by Software.Mitel.COM (4.1/SMI-4.0) id AA04089; Fri, 31 Jan 97 09:36:34 EST Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 09:36:34 EST From: Gordon_Dey@Software.Mitel.COM (Gordon Dey) Message-Id: <9701311436.AA04089@Software.Mitel.COM> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:946] Re: The point of the SS group buy Tony asked: > What do you guys think? Here's my 0.75 cents US. Personally, I don't have the skill to design the SS RF front end (although I'd love to acquire those skills :-() Nor do I have access to the type of equipment needed to debug a new design. But I can help with firm/software, and I'm dangerous with digital logic. But most of all, I like ham radio for the hands-on. >From those two perspectives, I'd welcome a PRISM-type front end that can get me started playing with the stuff I *CAN* play with. I'm reminded of the Bard's warning: "...smothered in surmise." *I* think that if you put out an analogy to the TNC-1 (simple, hack-able, starting point, and start putting it in folks hands) it will start an avalance of development that'll last a decade. And I perceive the conditions are ripe for an avalance. So if we can't design a front-end within the next, say two months, lets start a parallel development process by dropping in a chipset. I'm not proud. 73, Gord. From rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com Fri Jan 31 10:02:34 1997 Received: from ess.harris.com (su15a.ess.harris.com [130.41.1.251]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA29746 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:02:29 -0600 (CST) Received: from losalamos.ess.harris.com (su102s.ess.harris.com [130.41.13.101]) by ess.harris.com (8.8.5/8.8.5) with SMTP id KAA26312 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:59:44 -0500 (EST) Received: from Paris.GASD102designcenter by losalamos.ess.harris.com (4.1/SMI-4.1) id AA08895; Fri, 31 Jan 97 10:59:41 EST Received: by Paris.GASD102designcenter (SMI-8.6/SMI-SVR4) id KAA12719; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:59:44 -0500 Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:59:44 -0500 From: rlanier@su102s.ess.harris.com (Tony Lanier) Message-Id: <199701311559.KAA12719@Paris.GASD102designcenter> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:948] Re: Zilog X-Sun-Charset: US-ASCII > printed up data sheet. I m printing the 87001 data sheet as I type this and > its 50 pages long. Just like one would expect in a real live data book. > 73, Don. How do you intend to use the Zilog part? Just curious. 73s de Tony KE4ATO From taylord@ecn.purdue.edu Fri Jan 31 10:10:39 1997 Received: from atom.ecn.purdue.edu (root@atom.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.132.94]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id KAA00487 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 10:10:37 -0600 (CST) Received: from [128.46.169.162] (instru1.ecn.purdue.edu [128.46.169.162]) by atom.ecn.purdue.edu (8.8.5/3.8.2moyman) with ESMTP for delivery to "" id LAA27749; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:10:29 -0500 (EST) Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:10:29 -0500 (EST) X-Sender: taylord@128.46.169.94 Message-Id: In-Reply-To: <12599@wb9mjn.ampr.org> References: your message of Fri Jan 31 08:02:09 1997 Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" To: ss@tapr.org From: David G Taylor Subject: Re: [SS:948] Re: Zilog > Hi Steve, > > In my endevours, I found Zilog one of the easiest to get docs from. They >have >everything on their web site, in acrobat files. Ditto for me. I haven't ask for a sample chip yet, but I like Zilog products. The things one can do with the Z80 chip and peripherals family ! ---- 73 de David KB9KNS (Am cordless; will travel.) --taylord@ecn.purdue.edu From wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Fri Jan 31 11:49:33 1997 Received: from wb9mjn.ampr.org (wb9mjn.ampr.org [44.72.98.19]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with SMTP id LAA05840 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:49:12 -0600 (CST) From: wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org Date: Fri, 31 Jan 97 11:28:02 UTC Message-Id: <12605@wb9mjn.ampr.org> To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:950] Re: Zilog In-Reply-To: your message of Fri Jan 31 10:11:01 1997 <199701311559.KAA12719@Paris.GASD102designcenter> Hi Tony, I really don t know yet. Its a new chip that I didn t know about. Its a TDD FHSS chip. In the past i ve proposed 6 meter TDD networking, primarily for voice. I guess that would be one way, hi. The SX043 chip is looking pretty amazing, too. Its DSSS tho, but with 33 dB max processing gain, and 64 Mchip/s maximun rate. So, I m confused again, hi. For medium speed application, one can get sim- ilar processing gains with FH or DSSS. FH has less impact on FM Voice users, but would clober .5GFSK packet users. DSSS would have almost no effect on .5 GFSK users, but sooner or later its going to cause all sorts of troubles for satellite or weak sig guys in the near vacinity of a DSSS station. FH would have a little impact on weak signal reception, but because the pulse is only once in a while, it would not shut them down. Let me restate, FH will have almost no noticable effect on FM Voice, if its fast enuf. 73, Don. Mailbox : WB9MJN @ N9HSI.IL.USA.NA AMPRNet : wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org[44.72.98.19] Internet: wb9mjn%wb9mjn.ampr.org@uugate.aim.utah.edu From jerryn@ici.net Fri Jan 31 11:50:42 1997 Received: from uhura.ici.net (uhura.ici.net [204.97.252.6]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id LAA05873 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 11:50:40 -0600 (CST) Received: from nelix.ici.net (nelix.ici.net [207.180.0.25]) by uhura.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with ESMTP id MAA05757 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:46:56 -0500 (EST) Received: from nelix (localhost.ici.net [127.0.0.1]) by nelix.ici.net (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id MAA10302 for ; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:46:19 -0500 (EST) Sender: develop@ici.net Message-ID: <32F22FE9.41C67EA6@ici.net> Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 12:46:17 -0500 From: Jerry Normandin Organization: The Internet Connection X-Mailer: Mozilla 3.0Gold (X11; I; SunOS 4.1.3 sun4c) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: ss@tapr.org Subject: Re: [SS:949] Re: The point of the SS group buy References: <9701311436.AA04089@Software.Mitel.COM> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit I don't know why everyone is trying to design hardware and thinking of digipeating. Wireless Ethernet has no need to Digipeat in the way you are thinking. I use Wireless Ethernet Cards... like the NEC Wavelan. It's Spread Spectrum from 915-925Mhz. When A transmission is made in spread spectrum it's "OMNIPRESENT" in the band it's tranmittting . It's everywhere at once. When you listen to Spread Spectrum Data you can only monitor a small piece of data... it sounds like a popping noises... anyway the data gets routed the same way it gets routed in an ethernet router, granted you need router code running... packets get redirected in ns! No need for digipeating that technology is slow and antique! What we need is someone to bulk purchase wavlean cards for us. last time I bought my cards I paid $500.00 a pop. It would be nice if someone bulk purchases for us at $200.00 a pop. I can use 5 more. From jeff@mich.com Fri Jan 31 20:11:17 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA04098; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:11:11 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA06301; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:06:49 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970201021100.0071c19c@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:11:00 -0500 To: ss@tapr.org, ss-sta@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Re: [SS:953] Re: The point of the SS group buy At 12:00 PM 1/31/97 -0600, Jerry Normandin wrote: >I don't know why everyone is trying to design hardware and thinking >of digipeating. Wireless Ethernet has no need to Digipeat in the way >you are thinking. I use Wireless Ethernet Cards... like the NEC >Wavelan. It's Spread Spectrum from 915-925Mhz. .. >What we need is >someone to bulk purchase wavlean cards for us. last time I bought >my cards I paid $500.00 a pop. It would be nice if someone bulk >purchases for us at $200.00 a pop. I can use 5 more. > > Jerry: Not sure who "everyone" is, but if you'll re-read my original post, you'll see I mentioned the WaveLan as a alternative to the present track. Of all the proprietary standards (FreeWave, Proxium, et all), they appear on face to be the most open. And they have Linux drivers as you have pointed out to this group in the past. As to "digipeating", I think I missed that one. You have to remember this is a SS sig in the context (I think) of amateur radio. As such the users are not constrained by the limitations of Part 15, at least with regard to power and I'm sure many have seen the limitations of the present implementations of SS. Likely this is the interest in developing there own radio. What I was proposing was a compromise between buying something off the shelf (proprietary) and rolling your own (long development cycle, not cost effective). I was suggesting we, under the aspices of a TAPR group purchase, try to locate some development kits using some of the existing manufacturers chip sets/modules. I've previously discussed this so I won't elaborate. One question still remains unanswered..... is TAPR willing to per sue this? I'm willing to volunteer to help, and in fact already have a call into my local Zilog rep. Others have also expressed interest. Obviously, we can go this alone, but I think we could get better prices as a group and share our ideas. This has been proven with the Motorola DSP56 purchase. Anyone on the TAPR BOD care to give any direction at this point? -Jeff wb8wka From jeff@mich.com Fri Jan 31 20:22:47 1997 Received: from server1.mich.com (root@server1.mich.com [198.108.16.2]) by tapr.org (8.7.5/8.7.3/1.9) with ESMTP id UAA04861; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 20:22:45 -0600 (CST) Received: from gw-aerodata.mich.com (gw-aerodata.mich.com [198.108.16.240]) by server1.mich.com (8.8.4/8.8.4) with SMTP id VAA07385; Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:18:25 -0500 Message-Id: <2.2.32.19970201022235.006bef04@mail.mich.com> X-Sender: jeff@mail.mich.com X-Mailer: Windows Eudora Pro Version 2.2 (32) Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Date: Fri, 31 Jan 1997 21:22:35 -0500 To: ss-sta@tapr.org, ss@tapr.org From: Jeff King Subject: Zilog/AMI At 01:47 PM 1/30/97 -0600, wb9mjn@wb9mjn.ampr.org wrote: > > Hi Jeff,, > > > Oops, the Zilog 87000 is a FH Cordless Phone chip. The 87001, is maybe >an update on the 87000? Haven t gotten to that web site, yet. I think its a ROMless version of the 87000... at least that's the impression I got. > The AMI SX043 has a 64 Mchip/sec maximun rate, so, the maximun chip >per bit is 64 Mchip/sec divided by Data rate , or 2047, whichever is less. So, >a 2 Mbps data rate has a maximun processing gain of 18 dB, and only data >rates less than 31 kbaud can have the 33 dB processing gain. The SX043 is >a tau-dither lockup. So, its not appropriate for DDMAWAN, which is best with >a correlator matched filter (locks up in one symbol time). > > > >73, Don. > Yeap. I knew it couldn't do 2megabits at a chip rate of 2047 but was responding to your post that the best you had seen of the chip sets was 18db process gain. 31kbits/second should be able to handle a voice channel.... would make for a interesting HT :-) On another one of your posts you indicated FH would have less impact on a voice repeater then DS. Is this a user model or a engineering model? I'd think DS would exist better with FM voice, from the perspective of the voice users not knowing it was there, then FH.... assuming the energy level of the DS is below the FM carrier. The FH might cause popping on the user receiver were as the DS would just raise the noise floor. As most 'users' wouldn't hear the DS, they wouldn't/couldn't object to it. -Jeff